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Trading up with the Panthers?

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Old
06-02-2004, 04:04 PM
  #26
Digger12
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Let's also keep in mind here that Martin is probably one of the few coaches that could act as a voice of reason and keep Keenan from setting fires and stuff. Kinda like Master and Blaster from Beyond Thunderdome...

If nothing else, Martin won't let Keenan walk all over him like he's a puppet coach. If Martin wants to give Weiss one more shot, IMO Keenan has enough respect for JM that he'll give him the benefit of the doubt, at least at first.

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06-02-2004, 04:26 PM
  #27
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From a Panthers fan POV, the Weiss war was the focal point in a power struggle between Keenan and Dudley. They had differing opinions on whether Stephen was ready to play "at that time." Keenan didn't think he was but was over-ruled by Dudley and supported by a meddling owner. In retrospect Keenan proved right so while he lost the battle he wound up winning the war. Since then Weiss has made great strides and his progress is unanimously recognized.

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06-02-2004, 06:35 PM
  #28
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thnx for the history lesson... I think we all know that story..... what everybody doesn't know is if Keenen wants to give him a shot on HIS team and if he is a part of the type of team HE wants to build.

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06-02-2004, 06:58 PM
  #29
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Well, if you're wondering whether Weiss is tradeable the answer is sure. But do you think Florida is more likely to trade Weiss for Smith, or to keep Weiss in Florida and just bid on UFAs like Carney and Matvichuk?

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06-02-2004, 07:20 PM
  #30
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I am really glad some of you are no where near the Oiler's strings of power. This team would be a empty hulk in a matter of moments.

Smith for Weiss is incedibly lopsided. Weiss has yet to show that he is truely an NHL'er. Smith on the other hand when at the top of his game is a VERY good defender. You DON'T trade a VERY good defender for a maybe if you want to build a good team.

7th overall can be and has proven to be no better than 14th. Considering the players missed in past drafts. This draft is NOT deep but who knows.

Adding in Isbister just adds to the stupidity.

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06-02-2004, 07:22 PM
  #31
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The Panthers have a little wiggle-room money wise, and I have a feeling they will keep Weiss. Keenan is not against small players, he's had several in the past. He just wants small players who have HEART. And that's something Weiss does have.

I think a more likely target for the Oilers would either be Kristian Huselius, or Andreas Lilja, both guys I have a feeling will be gone VERY fast.

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06-02-2004, 07:39 PM
  #32
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Now I really like Jacques Martin and feel he will be a great fit in Florida, however, I would not bet against Mike Keenan molding this team and its players as he sees fit. Keenan has had more lives than a cat and rose from the dead like Lazarus after the great Florida showdown with Rick Dudley. This guy is a survivor and his past record suggests a high degree of control over all hockey decisions.

That said, I believe Jacques was a great hire given his past experience with Keenan. But I don't doubt for one minute Keenan will be highly influential beyond sitting in his office or the owner's box.

Hoz, as to your comments, the Florida-Edmonton trade ideas look good on paper from a needs/fits perspective. The motus operendi is there with the Oilers dealing older, experience players for young, prospective talent. Keenan likes big teams and veteran leadership. Luongo needs some defensive support.

I'd hardly be surprised to see such a deal happen as we've seen similar one many times before. My position would be to expand upon it with additional players or picks to fill further needs. I definitely don't undervalue Jason Smith and would not give him up cheaply. But looking at it another way, I would see value in getting a young, highly regarded NHL ready prospect like Weiss who could fill a longstanding gaping hole as a top two centre for the next ten years. Stupid?

Stupid in my eyes is clutching on to the status quo and risk remaining a mediocre team. Based on Weiss' 29 points in fifty games this year, he would only place ninth in Oiler team scoring.


Last edited by Behind Enemy Lines: 06-02-2004 at 07:53 PM.
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06-03-2004, 07:49 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Now I really like Jacques Martin and feel he will be a great fit in Florida, however, I would not bet against Mike Keenan molding this team and its players as he sees fit. Keenan has had more lives than a cat and rose from the dead like Lazarus after the great Florida showdown with Rick Dudley. This guy is a survivor and his past record suggests a high degree of control over all hockey decisions.

That said, I believe Jacques was a great hire given his past experience with Keenan. But I don't doubt for one minute Keenan will be highly influential beyond sitting in his office or the owner's box.

Hoz, as to your comments, the Florida-Edmonton trade ideas look good on paper from a needs/fits perspective. The motus operendi is there with the Oilers dealing older, experience players for young, prospective talent. Keenan likes big teams and veteran leadership. Luongo needs some defensive support.

I'd hardly be surprised to see such a deal happen as we've seen similar one many times before. My position would be to expand upon it with additional players or picks to fill further needs. I definitely don't undervalue Jason Smith and would not give him up cheaply. But looking at it another way, I would see value in getting a young, highly regarded NHL ready prospect like Weiss who could fill a longstanding gaping hole as a top two centre for the next ten years. Stupid?

Stupid in my eyes is clutching on to the status quo and risk remaining a mediocre team. Based on Weiss' 29 points in fifty games this year, he would only place ninth in Oiler team scoring.
Weiss is NOT a top 2 centre. Quit dreaming. Smith would and should bring back more than him.

I am not against trading Smith. Just trading him on a hope and a prayer. Then adding Isbister on top of that.

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06-03-2004, 10:10 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
Weiss is NOT a top 2 centre. Quit dreaming. Smith would and should bring back more than him.
No chance.

Stephen Weiss > Jason Smith.

Any day of the week, buddy.

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06-03-2004, 10:30 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
No chance.

Stephen Weiss > Jason Smith.

Any day of the week, buddy.
When Mike Keenan doesn't like a kid, he'll trade him for ANYBODY.
Jason Smith is MORE THAN ENOUGH for Keenan to pull the trigger.

Smith is a Keenan player. We all know it.

Key question here is: Does Keenan like Weiss?

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06-03-2004, 10:37 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
When Mike Keenan doesn't like a kid, he'll trade him for ANYBODY.
Jason Smith is MORE THAN ENOUGH for Keenan to pull the trigger.

Smith is a Keenan player. We all know it.

Key question here is: Does Keenan like Weiss?
No, Mike Keenan doesn't like Stephen Weiss.

But this will *not* be the same Keenan shananigans. Rick Cohen has made it very clear that Jacques Martin will develop this young team into a solid group, and Stephen Weiss is very much a part of that.

Olli Jokinen, Weiss, Nathan Horton, Jay Bouwmeester, Anthony Stewart, Roberto Luongo and Lucas Krajicek are very unlikely to get dealt.

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06-03-2004, 10:58 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
No chance.

Stephen Weiss > Jason Smith.

Any day of the week, buddy.

In your dreams, BUDDY.

If given a choice of which player they'd want to have on their team for a CUP run I doubt their be more than one vote out of 30 for Weiss.

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06-03-2004, 11:35 PM
  #38
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As an outsider of FLA & EDM , I think Mike Keenan is more into trading Huselius than Weiss. We rarely see a young top future player like Weiss getting trade.

Huselius could be a good fit in EDM & the Western conference style.

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06-03-2004, 11:38 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
Weiss is NOT a top 2 centre. Quit dreaming. Smith would and should bring back more than him.

I am not against trading Smith. Just trading him on a hope and a prayer. Then adding Isbister on top of that.
My nightmare was actually watching the rotating centre position we saw this past year. But perhaps you think Mike Bishai is 'the answer.' You have a pretty quick evaluation of Weiss' potential for someone who is only twenty-one year, rushed into this league, and who despite this fact put up okay numbers (11 fewer points than the Oilers Shawn Horcoff in significantly fewer games and with much less quality ice time).

Please share who you view as a non hope and a prayer trade partner and player(s) for Jason Smith. I'd like to know your perception of fair value.

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06-03-2004, 11:50 PM
  #40
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Agreed.

Lowe does Smith for Weiss straight up in a heartbeat (if Keenan had it on the table)

I think the following looks good for both teams:

Smith, Horcoff/ Rita & 3rd ----- for ----- Weiss & Hagman

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06-04-2004, 08:08 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
My nightmare was actually watching the rotating centre position we saw this past year. But perhaps you think Mike Bishai is 'the answer.' You have a pretty quick evaluation of Weiss' potential for someone who is only twenty-one year, rushed into this league, and who despite this fact put up okay numbers (11 fewer points than the Oilers Shawn Horcoff in significantly fewer games and with much less quality ice time).
Weiss (imo) is in that family of centermen we've talked about on this board for years. Marleau, Legwand, Taffe, guys who can play offense but maybe are struggling a little to establish themselves. I'm not saying he's at the top of the list, but he fits the profile of a high skill first rounder who has hit some bumps on the road.

The window of opportunity to get these guys is quite small (about six months after we discussed Marleau he was untouchable, he'd made that big step forward) and imo Weiss is probably about ready to make this discussion moot with a step forward the next time they play.

There's certainly nothing in his progress so far that says he's a dud, and as much as we like to talk about the Niinimaki's and Pouliot's they're not close.

Sounds like the makings of a deal to me.

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Old
06-04-2004, 10:45 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by HOZ
In your dreams, BUDDY.

If given a choice of which player they'd want to have on their team for a CUP run I doubt their be more than one vote out of 30 for Weiss.
Oh, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Jason Smith would benefit a playoff team much moreso than Stephen Weiss, but when Weiss is Smith's age, there won't be any comparison as to whom the better playoff player is. Weiss is only 21 years old; it's hard to compare his playoff value at the moment to that of Smith, whom is in his prime right now.

Just because Smith is the better playoff player now doesn't mean his value is that of Weiss'.

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06-04-2004, 10:55 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Just because Smith is the better playoff player now doesn't mean his value is that of Weiss'.
I agree with this.

If you are looking to deal Smith then you need to find a trading partner that feels they are on the verge of seriously contending because that is where Smith will benefit a team the most right now.

Florida appears poised for a slow build up to contending. All the kids they are pegging as corner stones to the franchise are still a few years away from really impacting on a playoff run. By the time they need a player like Smith to round out the roster, Smith will probably be past his prime.

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Old
06-04-2004, 12:50 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by copperandblue
I agree with this.

If you are looking to deal Smith then you need to find a trading partner that feels they are on the verge of seriously contending because that is where Smith will benefit a team the most right now.

Florida appears poised for a slow build up to contending. All the kids they are pegging as corner stones to the franchise are still a few years away from really impacting on a playoff run. By the time they need a player like Smith to round out the roster, Smith will probably be past his prime.
I see what you and Roy are saying - but disagree. I think that all these teams that think that anyone over the age of 27 is too old for them as they're rebuilding are crazy... to me, having veterans around is more important to a very young team than it is to a run of the mill team. I hear all the time people saying "we should get rid of veteran X, and let the kids play", and completely disagree. In many of those cases, you're hindering the young players development, not helping.

I think that teams that successfully rebuilt have veteran leadership around... I think that a guy like Andreychuk and Modin were absolutely essential to the present Tampa team. Not only do they provide leadership during a playoff run, but more importantly they mentor the kids as they develope. Whenever I've played on teams with older players around, they really do act as second coaches... sometimes even better than coaches because they can show you how its done during game situations.

As for a Weiss for Smith trade - I think that if we're lucky next year... and Semenov steps up, and Staois doesn't tire out, then we might be able to fill the Smith void. Trading Brewer would be absolute suicide IMO.

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06-04-2004, 12:56 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by oil slick
I see what you and Roy are saying - but disagree. I think that all these teams that think that anyone over the age of 27 is too old for them as they're rebuilding are crazy... to me, having veterans around is more important to a very young team than it is to a run of the mill team. I hear all the time people saying "we should get rid of veteran X, and let the kids play", and completely disagree. In many of those cases, you're hindering the young players development, not helping.

I think that teams that successfully rebuilt have veteran leadership around... I think that a guy like Andreychuk and Modin were absolutely essential to the present Tampa team. Not only do they provide leadership during a playoff run, but more importantly they mentor the kids as they develope. Whenever I've played on teams with older players around, they really do act as second coaches... sometimes even better than coaches because they can show you how its done during game situations.

As for a Weiss for Smith trade - I think that if we're lucky next year... and Semenov steps up, and Staois doesn't tire out, then we might be able to fill the Smith void. Trading Brewer would be absolute suicide IMO.
I don't recall myself ever saying that Jason Smith is 'over the hill' or wouldn't be a fabulous addition to any hockey team. But at the cost of Stephen Weiss, a player in the ilk of Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman? Come on.

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06-04-2004, 01:11 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
But at the cost of Stephen Weiss, a player in the ilk of Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman? Come on.
Perhaps he's worth it, perhaps not, but to me saying Weiss is of the same ilk as Sakic or Yzerman is about as misleading as saying Smith is of the same ilk as Scott Stevens.

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06-04-2004, 01:52 PM
  #47
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Perhaps he's worth it, perhaps not, but to me saying Weiss is of the same ilk as Sakic or Yzerman is about as misleading as saying Smith is of the same ilk as Scott Stevens.
No, it's not at all similar.

Jason Smith has reached his maximum potential, most likely, and is a ways off from ever being Scott Stevens. Stephen Weiss, when drafted, was compared to both of Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic. His potential, albeit debatable, is that of Yzerman and Sakic.

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06-04-2004, 02:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
No, it's not at all similar.

Jason Smith has reached his maximum potential, most likely, and is a ways off from ever being Scott Stevens. Stephen Weiss, when drafted, was compared to both of Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic. His potential, albeit debatable, is that of Yzerman and Sakic.
Perhaps. Personally, however, I think Smith is much more valuable than Alexandre Daigle, Bonsignore (described as a "smooth-staking center in the Mario Lemieux-type mold."), John Slaney ("While his end-to-end dashes are reminiscent of Paul Coffey, Slaney's overall style is closer to Paul Reinhart.") and others. We enter into the age old debate of potential vs. accomplishments... and I don't really think there is a right answer to this.

Irregardless, I've seen a lot of predictions about Weiss (tsn, espn) that has him pegged as a potential second line center, a far cry from Sakic, and Yzerman.


Last edited by oil slick: 06-04-2004 at 02:31 PM.
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06-04-2004, 02:36 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by oil slick
I see what you and Roy are saying - but disagree. I think that all these teams that think that anyone over the age of 27 is too old for them as they're rebuilding are crazy... to me, having veterans around is more important to a very young team than it is to a run of the mill team.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

If I was to look at this from each angle, my line of thinking is;

From Edmonton's perspective;

Jump on the Weiss deal if it's available but in the end it is all about getting as much for Smith as I can so it becomes a question of who needs him more.

From Florida's perspective;

I would definately a want a reliable veteran defenceman to help along the youngsters, however I don't want to give up young emerging talent before it is clear that it is necessary. At this point the team is still likely 4 years away from really being a force. In that time span a player like Weiss could emerge as a bonifide star and a guy like Stewart maybe proves to have been overhyped.

As far as getting a veteran blueline presence for the near future goes, I would look at the UFA market where a decent stay at home defencemen could be had for a relatively inexpensive contract (especially with the new CBA comig up). To use Edmonton as an example they grabbed Staois for realatively cheap and last year Ulanov was a perfect fit and neither guy cost a roster player and both filled the exact same role you describe.

The third perspective;

A team like Philly, NJ, Col, TO, Ott would likely all be willing to give up more in emerging talent if a guy like Smith fills a hole because it would be much more pressing to get him now, not 3 years from now.

I don't know what they would have had that Edmonton would have found attractive but I can't help but think that Jersey is kicking themselves a bit for not persuing him at the deadline considering what ultimately played out with Steven's and what effect it had on the team during the playoffs.

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06-04-2004, 07:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
My nightmare was actually watching the rotating centre position we saw this past year. But perhaps you think Mike Bishai is 'the answer.' You have a pretty quick evaluation of Weiss' potential for someone who is only twenty-one year, rushed into this league, and who despite this fact put up okay numbers (11 fewer points than the Oilers Shawn Horcoff in significantly fewer games and with much less quality ice time).

Please share who you view as a non hope and a prayer trade partner and player(s) for Jason Smith. I'd like to know your perception of fair value.
Potential and 3 bucks would barely get you a decent cup of coffee in Star Bucks

You are so hot on trading a top 2 defender on the Oilers: a guy who would be top 4 on 90% of the rest of the leagues' line-ups. A VERY important position! For a guy who was rushed into the league and puts up 'ok numbers'.

Again....

Smith is a KNOWN commodity. Weiss is a maybe. You are guessing as to what Weiss may become. To trade Smith for Weiss straight up is foolish.

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