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Trading up with the Panthers?

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Old
06-04-2004, 08:58 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Just because Smith is the better playoff player now doesn't mean his value is that of Weiss'.
You got to be kidding me. This is utter nonsense.

You are only guessing as to what Weiss 'may become'. Smith is a know quantity. He is a top 4 defender in this league. A very VALUED position. MORE VALUED than Weiss' potential.

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06-04-2004, 09:12 PM
  #52
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First off Weiss is no Sakic or Yzerman, and the chances of him ever becoming a first liner (much less a center of the Sakic/Yzerman ilk) are maybe 60/40. Weiss isn't up there for the young kids like somebody like Frolov, Havlat, or Ruutu. Think closer to Svitov for Weiss then anything (I personally would rather have Svitov too).

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06-05-2004, 12:57 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by HOZ
Potential and 3 bucks would barely get you a decent cup of coffee in Star Bucks

You are so hot on trading a top 2 defender on the Oilers: a guy who would be top 4 on 90% of the rest of the leagues' line-ups. A VERY important position! For a guy who was rushed into the league and puts up 'ok numbers'.

Again....

Smith is a KNOWN commodity. Weiss is a maybe. You are guessing as to what Weiss may become. To trade Smith for Weiss straight up is foolish.
And back to my question posed to you...
"Please share who you view as a non hope and a prayer trade partner and player(s) for Jason Smith. I'd like to know your perception of fair value."

Don't be bashful. Answer the question instead of offering such simply, pithy comments. Buck up and offer your solution.

And to clarify myself (again) for you. I would make Weiss and Smith the cornerstone of a bigger deal. Add additional players to address other areas of weakness (ie. Power Play defenseman). But hey, see and believe what you want to. After all, everyone has opinions and ass%#$#es. Even if they can't afford the three dollar Starbucks coffee.

I value Jason Smith as a player. However when I look at his salary, age, injury history and relative strength of the Oiler organization, I feel the Oilers are best served by looking for that elusive top-end, young talent rather than holding onto to its current roster ... one that didn't make the playoffs this year. From that perspective, I like Lowtide and others here, feel there might be a small window of opportunity to pry a top six young talent. Status quo or try to acquire a young, potential difference-maker which is the missing ingredient on a very average team. Take the status quo. Maybe Jason Smith will lead this team to the promised land.
However, I just don't think so.

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06-05-2004, 09:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
And back to my question posed to you...
"Please share who you view as a non hope and a prayer trade partner and player(s) for Jason Smith. I'd like to know your perception of fair value."

Don't be bashful. Answer the question instead of offering such simply, pithy comments. Buck up and offer your solution.

And to clarify myself (again) for you. I would make Weiss and Smith the cornerstone of a bigger deal. Add additional players to address other areas of weakness (ie. Power Play defenseman). But hey, see and believe what you want to. After all, everyone has opinions and ass%#$#es. Even if they can't afford the three dollar Starbucks coffee.

I value Jason Smith as a player. However when I look at his salary, age, injury history and relative strength of the Oiler organization, I feel the Oilers are best served by looking for that elusive top-end, young talent rather than holding onto to its current roster ... one that didn't make the playoffs this year. From that perspective, I like Lowtide and others here, feel there might be a small window of opportunity to pry a top six young talent. Status quo or try to acquire a young, potential difference-maker which is the missing ingredient on a very average team. Take the status quo. Maybe Jason Smith will lead this team to the promised land.
However, I just don't think so.
I get the idea that you are either unable to understand what I said OR trying real hard to make yourself seem intelligent and whitty. Then you end up agreeing with me at the end of your post. SO I am trying to figure out why you would argue with me in the first place and say that you'd do Wiess for Smith in a heart beat?

AGAIN........I'll type it slowly for you. I said this in the other posts.

I am not against trading Smith but trading Smith STRAIGHT UP for Wiess is foolish. Smith should and could bring back more.

So what is fair value for Smith? More than just Weiss.

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06-06-2004, 01:46 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
I get the idea that you are either unable to understand what I said OR trying real hard to make yourself seem intelligent and whitty. Then you end up agreeing with me at the end of your post. SO I am trying to figure out why you would argue with me in the first place and say that you'd do Wiess for Smith in a heart beat?

AGAIN........I'll type it slowly for you. I said this in the other posts.

I am not against trading Smith but trading Smith STRAIGHT UP for Wiess is foolish. Smith should and could bring back more.

So what is fair value for Smith? More than just Weiss.
Firstly, thank you for typing slowly for me. And back to my question posed to you...
"Please share who you view as a non hope and a prayer trade partner and player(s) for Jason Smith. I'd like to know your perception of fair value."

Can you please type in your answer slowly so I don't miss you finally answering the question. If you're not already running for political office, I would be happy to endorse your campaign. You have a wonderful gift of being condescending, deflecting the issue, and not answering a question. One vote for HOZ the fast typer for Prime Minister. Or in your fast typing world perhaps I'll make that PRIME MINISTER, so it sounds more important.

Now, please (or PLEASE) answer the question. What exactly is more than just Weiss?

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06-06-2004, 12:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Firstly, thank you for typing slowly for me. And back to my question posed to you...
"Please share who you view as a non hope and a prayer trade partner and player(s) for Jason Smith. I'd like to know your perception of fair value."

Can you please type in your answer slowly so I don't miss you finally answering the question. If you're not already running for political office, I would be happy to endorse your campaign. You have a wonderful gift of being condescending, deflecting the issue, and not answering a question. One vote for HOZ the fast typer for Prime Minister. Or in your fast typing world perhaps I'll make that PRIME MINISTER, so it sounds more important.

Now, please (or PLEASE) answer the question. What exactly is more than just Weiss?
Yup...you didn't understand.

How important is Smith? Well unless the Oilers have his replacement in hand or get the man in return for Smith there will be a huge gaping whole in the Oiler defense. So what is the value for a top 4 defender in the NHL? Hmmmm.....more than just Weiss...which was the whole point that I was trying to make.

So if I was going to trade my top 4 defender I would want one of theirs. Florida is a crappy team and if I am going to give them Smith I would shoot high. Start with Jay B and settle for no less than Van Ryn and a pick. Now I am not saying Florida would do that. It's what I'd be asking for.

24 minutes a game guy is a great replacement for Smith. No maybes there.

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06-06-2004, 01:48 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HOZ
Yup...you didn't understand.

How important is Smith? Well unless the Oilers have his replacement in hand or get the man in return for Smith there will be a huge gaping whole in the Oiler defense. So what is the value for a top 4 defender in the NHL? Hmmmm.....more than just Weiss...which was the whole point that I was trying to make.

So if I was going to trade my top 4 defender I would want one of theirs. Florida is a crappy team and if I am going to give them Smith I would shoot high. Start with Jay B and settle for no less than Van Ryn and a pick. Now I am not saying Florida would do that. It's what I'd be asking for.

24 minutes a game guy is a great replacement for Smith. No maybes there.
The overwhelming majority of NHL trades are made to address areas of need and are not lateral transactions. The whole premise of Florida-Edmonton trade discussion is based upon three things:
- Florida's need for a veteran defenseman to help out their overworked all-star goaltender and young d and team.
- Florida is well stocked with young, high drafted skilled forwards.
- The Mike Keenan effect of trading players he doesn't like (Weiss, Huselius, Hagman).

From Edmonton's point of view, it is clear that we need an upgrade at centre, forward scoring, power play defenseman, and goaltending. And our relative strength is at defense where we have decent veteran depth (Staios, Ulanov, Cross), an emerging #1 d-man in Eric Brewer, and three solid young players close to being ready (Woywitka, Lynch, Greene). Who has trade value?
- Jason Smith (veteran, $$, history of salary arbitration).

Idea: Florida - Edmonton Trade. Use Weiss and Smith as centre pieces and build from their to address key needs.

Weiss, Huselius, Novak/Krajicek
Smith, Isbister, Chimera/Rita

As to your comment about Florida's team. They are a young, 'crappy team' which has chosen to build through the draft and now have arguably the best prospect system in the NHL. They also have the best young goalie in hockey. The future of this team looks good and as an interim measure could be helped greatly by a solid veteran leader like Smith.

We know Keenan loves and builds his teams around Big, young, and talented defenseman. He loves Jay Bowmeester. Good luck getting him out of Florida. Let's be abit more realistic.

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06-06-2004, 03:43 PM
  #58
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Trade Idea: Smith to FLA
FLA's 1st 2004

Florida is going to spend money. The Guerin rumors will probably come true, especially if Dallas is willing to eat 4M a year on his contract. Smith, even if he goes to arbitration, won't get much of a bump on his salary. Look at Matvichuk's arbitration last summer. 2.5M for a reliable, hard-nose defenseman who can captain your team is not too tough a pill to swallow.

Horton and Stewart will be great NHLers. Florida still has Jokinen, Weiss, Huselius and other young guys to build around. They also have some 2nd round picks to add some character players.

My only question is who will be there at 7th overall. If Olesz is there we'd snap him up. Perhaps Schremp as well. I say we make a move. Our contention time will come 3 or more years from now anyways. Make a move now and keep a core together for the long haul. Make Ryan Smyth or Ethan Moreau the captain and get on with things.

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06-06-2004, 07:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines

We know Keenan loves and builds his teams around Big, young, and talented defenseman. He loves Jay Bowmeester. Good luck getting him out of Florida. Let's be abit more realistic.
You miss this part of what I typed?

Now I am not saying Florida would do that. It's what I'd be asking for.

Translation: Florida would never do it but that is where I would start at. Why in the world would you start at the bottom with Weiss?

You really seem to miss the part about me NOT being against trading Smith and the fact that if he is traded the Oilers will NEED his replacement. If Smith is traded like you and the others propose we'll have more b&c'ing here about MacTavish using Cory Cross too much.

Starting with a trade that has it's principle parts as Weiss and Smith is VERY bad nbegotiations.

What it should be is Van Ryn for Smith.

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06-06-2004, 08:57 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
You miss this part of what I typed?

Now I am not saying Florida would do that. It's what I'd be asking for.

Translation: Florida would never do it but that is where I would start at. Why in the world would you start at the bottom with Weiss?

You really seem to miss the part about me NOT being against trading Smith and the fact that if he is traded the Oilers will NEED his replacement. If Smith is traded like you and the others propose we'll have more b&c'ing here about MacTavish using Cory Cross too much.

Starting with a trade that has it's principle parts as Weiss and Smith is VERY bad nbegotiations.

What it should be is Van Ryn for Smith.
It seems we differ greatly in perceived value of Stephen Weiss and in the desired return for Jason Smith. Unlike you, I don't view Stephen Weiss as starting at the bottom in any trade discussion. And secondly I don't see obtaining a defenseman as the core in any trade for Smith. That for me would represent a lateral move rather than addressing Edmonton's core team need to improve its skilled forwards. Beyond which, I can't see Florida having interest in trading from their weakest position (defense) for an older, same position player like Smith. A trade must work and make sense from both party's perspectives.

I will agree that Mike Van Ryn would make a nice, secondary target in an expanded trade with the Panthers. But realistically, there might be more hope for Krajicek or Novak who are similar type players and unproven. I can't see Keenan carrying four offenseman types on their defense. However I would still target first their young forward talent which addresses a greater need for the Oilers organization and relative strength for the Panthers.

Finally, begin wherever you like in a trade discussion. However in the real world when asking for a team's best player or prospect one had better have good value attached to it or one loses credibility pretty fast. Beginning a trade inquiry with Bowmeester for Smith would be a very, very short conversation between Keenan and K-Lowe.

As I said above, a trade must work and make sense from both party's perspectives. We differ in our opinions about that value and that is just fine.

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06-06-2004, 09:27 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
It seems we differ greatly in perceived value of Stephen Weiss and in the desired return for Jason Smith. Unlike you, I don't view Stephen Weiss as starting at the bottom in any trade discussion. And secondly I don't see obtaining a defenseman as the core in any trade for Smith. That for me would represent a lateral move rather than addressing Edmonton's core team need to improve its skilled forwards. Beyond which, I can't see Florida having interest in trading from their weakest position (defense) for an older, same position player like Smith. A trade must work and make sense from both party's perspectives.

I will agree that Mike Van Ryn would make a nice, secondary target in an expanded trade with the Panthers. But realistically, there might be more hope for Krajicek or Novak who are similar type players and unproven. I can't see Keenan carrying four offenseman types on their defense. However I would still target first their young forward talent which addresses a greater need for the Oilers organization and relative strength for the Panthers.

Finally, begin wherever you like in a trade discussion. However in the real world when asking for a team's best player or prospect one had better have good value attached to it or one loses credibility pretty fast. Beginning a trade inquiry with Bowmeester for Smith would be a very, very short conversation between Keenan and K-Lowe.

As I said above, a trade must work and make sense from both party's perspectives. We differ in our opinions about that value and that is just fine.
The Oilers can't continue to constantly trade players and expect to make it past the first round. Isn't that what fans complained about when Calgary made it to SC Finals. It seems fans don't have the patience with young players and these young players will find success elsewhere as the Edmonton fans are too impatient.

Another question. Did the Oilers become good too fast?

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06-06-2004, 09:43 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines

Beginning a trade inquiry with Bowmeester for Smith would be a very, very short conversation between Keenan and K-Lowe.
If you start any trade negotiation by slapping down names on the table you'll lose or never get the best possible deal. The best negotiators I have ever seen always do end runs around the the target they really want and end up with more.

Human nature:
By saying that Player X is available you have put a big bullet hole in his value. Once the other guy knows you are looking to trade him he won't give you good value. Why should he? You are looking to get rid of the guy, so obviously he isn't that important or is a problem. See Comrie deal for details.

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06-06-2004, 10:11 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Hemsky83
The Oilers can't continue to constantly trade players and expect to make it past the first round. Isn't that what fans complained about when Calgary made it to SC Finals. It seems fans don't have the patience with young players and these young players will find success elsewhere as the Edmonton fans are too impatient.

Another question. Did the Oilers become good too fast?
Hemsky83, I agree with your point. The Oilers have to get to a point where it can keep its best players. I was very wrong about Iginla in Calgary. Having watched the Flamers struggle for years, I felt they should deal Iggy for two-three quality young NHLers. Obviously we have all seen the great success of the Flames due to the emergence and leadership of Iginlia.

Edmonton is taking a patient approach to developing a winning team. There is some room around the fringes with veteran players such as Smith who have trade value for younger NHL players who align with the Oilers two-three year timeframe for competitiveness. However we must all remain patient with the draft and development approach Lowe has always advocated.

As to the Oilers past success, I personally would never trade this in a million years. The Oiler team of the 80's was special and played arguable the best hockey ever seen. It was left a legacy for future teams but one I would rather aspire to than the Vancouver Canucks or other franchises which have never known the ultimate success. Maybe Oiler fans are more impatient than most, but again we have seen and lived through the best. We'll get back (I think) to having a Cup Contending team but there remains some nipping and tucking on the NHL roster and needed success with the Draft roulette wheel.

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06-06-2004, 10:16 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
If you start any trade negotiation by slapping down names on the table you'll lose or never get the best possible deal. The best negotiators I have ever seen always do end runs around the the target they really want and end up with more.

Human nature:
By saying that Player X is available you have put a big bullet hole in his value. Once the other guy knows you are looking to trade him he won't give you good value. Why should he? You are looking to get rid of the guy, so obviously he isn't that important or is a problem. See Comrie deal for details.
The Lindros trade worked out okay for the Quebec Nordique. And I'd say the Ottawa Senators did okay in the Yashin trade. Both were major deals involving elite talent which made it clear for all involved they would not play for their respective teams.

It is a matter of supply and demand. Both Lindros and Yashin were viewed as elite talent and in demand for their combination of skill and size. Unfortunately, Mike Comrie put up very good NHL numbers but disappeared in the NHL playoffs due to a perceived lack of size and injury. I think many Oiler fans over inflated Comrie's trade value and it seems he might have been a more valuable player on the Oil than many other teams. Like it or not, small centres do not carry as much trade value.

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06-06-2004, 11:09 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Hemsky83, I agree with your point. The Oilers have to get to a point where it can keep its best players. I was very wrong about Iginla in Calgary. Having watched the Flamers struggle for years, I felt they should deal Iggy for two-three quality young NHLers. Obviously we have all seen the great success of the Flames due to the emergence and leadership of Iginlia.

Edmonton is taking a patient approach to developing a winning team. There is some room around the fringes with veteran players such as Smith who have trade value for younger NHL players who align with the Oilers two-three year timeframe for competitiveness. However we must all remain patient with the draft and development approach Lowe has always advocated.

As to the Oilers past success, I personally would never trade this in a million years. The Oiler team of the 80's was special and played arguable the best hockey ever seen. It was left a legacy for future teams but one I would rather aspire to than the Vancouver Canucks or other franchises which have never known the ultimate success. Maybe Oiler fans are more impatient than most, but again we have seen and lived through the best. We'll get back (I think) to having a Cup Contending team but there remains some nipping and tucking on the NHL roster and needed success with the Draft roulette wheel.
I see where you're coming from. It was mentioned in "Glory Baron" that the Oilers became good too fast.

I think I can see where Hunter is coming from. The Oilers Joined the league in 1979 and drafted 21st overrall. They had a top 10 the following year and upset the Canadiens in their second playoff series. The Oilers have only had 6 top 10 draft picks in their existence. When they miss the playoffs, they barely miss them.

Nashville is a perfect example of what I mean. They didn't make the playoffs until their fifth season, whereas the Oilers won their first Stanley Cup in their fifth season. Nashville had top draft picks in their first five season something the Oilers didn't have.

I like the fact that they had success and a dynasty but that success and dynasty also hurt the team and it didn't help to have PP as owner either. I believe part of Slats terrible drafting had something to do with PP.

High draft picks cost money. I mentioned it in another post but the dynasty started showing cracks when Steve Smith put the puck in his own net. Because the Oilers won the SC in 3 of the next 4 seasons, it didn't show. I remember reading an article where Pendergast wanted Sykora and Elias but was out numbered and someone else was drafted.

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06-07-2004, 12:45 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
The Lindros trade worked out okay for the Quebec Nordique. And I'd say the Ottawa Senators did okay in the Yashin trade. Both were major deals involving elite talent which made it clear for all involved they would not play for their respective teams.

It is a matter of supply and demand. Both Lindros and Yashin were viewed as elite talent and in demand for their combination of skill and size. Unfortunately, Mike Comrie put up very good NHL numbers but disappeared in the NHL playoffs due to a perceived lack of size and injury. I think many Oiler fans over inflated Comrie's trade value and it seems he might have been a more valuable player on the Oil than many other teams. Like it or not, small centres do not carry as much trade value.
The Comrie deal STUNK. A prospect and a pick is a pathetic return for a young 60+ point producer. The reason is stunk wasn't Lowe's inability to get negotiate a good deal but the fact that everyone knew that Comrie wanted out. Therefore Lowe was stuck with getting the 'best deal possible'. Which wasn't much. One bad playoff for a young guy like Comrie is water off a ducks back. Gm's know young guys need to learn. Young 60+ point guys don't grow on trees.

Another great example: Kovalev. Everyone in Pittsburg was expecting a superstar to be + 3 great prospects and a vet. Unfortunately, everyone knew Pittsburg was unable to keep him. Hence his value went through the floor.

#3: Val Bure: Cowville's return was horrendous. Why, because everyone knew Calgary was trying to get rid of him so no one was offering up much. Yes, Button sucked too.

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06-07-2004, 12:57 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky83
I see where you're coming from. It was mentioned in "Glory Baron" that the Oilers became good too fast.

I think I can see where Hunter is coming from. The Oilers Joined the league in 1979 and drafted 21st overrall. They had a top 10 the following year and upset the Canadiens in their second playoff series. The Oilers have only had 6 top 10 draft picks in their existence. When they miss the playoffs, they barely miss them.

Nashville is a perfect example of what I mean. They didn't make the playoffs until their fifth season, whereas the Oilers won their first Stanley Cup in their fifth season. Nashville had top draft picks in their first five season something the Oilers didn't have.

I like the fact that they had success and a dynasty but that success and dynasty also hurt the team and it didn't help to have PP as owner either. I believe part of Slats terrible drafting had something to do with PP.

High draft picks cost money. I mentioned it in another post but the dynasty started showing cracks when Steve Smith put the puck in his own net. Because the Oilers won the SC in 3 of the next 4 seasons, it didn't show. I remember reading an article where Pendergast wanted Sykora and Elias but was out numbered and someone else was drafted.
The early Edmonton Oilers emerged with incredible success at the NHL Draft Table and great timing. The 1979 was the best draft in history and the Oilers emerged with three Hall of Fame level players. Followed in 1980 with two Hall of Famers and a goaltender who played 10+ season. Just add Gretzky and Fuhr and the foundation was set.

I don't know if Peter Puck's financial mess affected the team's draft success or not. But the team's subsequent lack of success at the draft table definitely hurt. Thank goodness Slats was able to make some great trades.

The reality for any sports fan is that their team's success is finite. In fact, we may be watching the transition from Detroit, Dallas, Colorado, New Jersey as the NHL's dominant teams to the emergence of new blood in Tampa Bay and San Jose. Change is good. For the most part, the draft provides an essential foundation for team success. Astute scouting and some luck are key for building good teams.
There is little margin for error in today's draft of 30 teams and the global microscope under which today's young prospects play.

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06-07-2004, 01:03 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
The early Edmonton Oilers emerged with incredible success at the NHL Draft Table and great timing. The 1979 was the best draft in history and the Oilers emerged with three Hall of Fame level players. Followed in 1980 with two Hall of Famers and a goaltender who played 10+ season. Just add Gretzky and Fuhr and the foundation was set.

I don't know if Peter Puck's financial mess affected the team's draft success or not. But the team's subsequent lack of success at the draft table definitely hurt. Thank goodness Slats was able to make some great trades.

The reality for any sports fan is that their team's success is finite. In fact, we may be watching the transition from Detroit, Dallas, Colorado, New Jersey as the NHL's dominant teams to the emergence of new blood in Tampa Bay and San Jose. Change is good. For the most part, the draft provides an essential foundation for team success. Astute scouting and some luck are key for building good teams.
There is little margin for error in today's draft of 30 teams and the global microscope under which today's young prospects play.
You should read "Glory Barons". Hunter goes into detail of all the years. He states that the dynasty started to crumble of Steve Smith's own goal. I think PP may have had something to do with the bad drafting. Slats may hot have wanted to draft a star player due to money involved in signing them. There is something very interesting about the Gretzky trade mentioned by Hunter. If you want to know any details of what it mentions, PM me.

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06-07-2004, 01:08 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
The Comrie deal STUNK. A prospect and a pick is a pathetic return for a young 60+ point producer. The reason is stunk wasn't Lowe's inability to get negotiate a good deal but the fact that everyone knew that Comrie wanted out. Therefore Lowe was stuck with getting the 'best deal possible'. Which wasn't much. One bad playoff for a young guy like Comrie is water off a ducks back. Gm's know young guys need to learn. Young 60+ point guys don't grow on trees.

Another great example: Kovalev. Everyone in Pittsburg was expecting a superstar to be + 3 great prospects and a vet. Unfortunately, everyone knew Pittsburg was unable to keep him. Hence his value went through the floor.

#3: Val Bure: Cowville's return was horrendous. Why, because everyone knew Calgary was trying to get rid of him so no one was offering up much. Yes, Button sucked too.
HOZ, we may find a point of agreement yet. I too felt Comrie deserved an opportunity to come back and prove himself. Unfortunately, it didn't work out for a number of reasons most of what we don't yet know.

But, as far as value, Woywitka and a First Rounder might prove to be a good return. Woywitka may make this Oiler team as early as this year. And if the Oilers draft well with the Flyers pick or leverage it as part of a trade or to move up, the results of this trade are a long, long way from being known.

Kovalev and Jagr were both financial moves. It was as much about moving salary as it was in trying to get the best return possible. The Penguins have been on life support for some time.

I can't remember the return for Val Bure. But, as you mentioned, Button sucked.

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06-07-2004, 01:11 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Hemsky83
You should read "Glory Barons". Hunter goes into detail of all the years. He states that the dynasty started to crumble of Steve Smith's own goal. I think PP may have had something to do with the bad drafting. Slats may hot have wanted to draft a star player due to money involved in signing them. There is something very interesting about the Gretzky trade mentioned by Hunter. If you want to know any details of what it mentions, PM me.
Thanks for the recommend, Hemsky83! I've heard about the book but must admit it is likely the only Oiler book I haven't read. Will add it to my future reading list.

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06-07-2004, 03:41 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HOZ
Potential and 3 bucks would barely get you a decent cup of coffee in Star Bucks

You are so hot on trading a top 2 defender on the Oilers: a guy who would be top 4 on 90% of the rest of the leagues' line-ups. A VERY important position! For a guy who was rushed into the league and puts up 'ok numbers'.

Again....

Smith is a KNOWN commodity. Weiss is a maybe. You are guessing as to what Weiss may become. To trade Smith for Weiss straight up is foolish.
Got to disagree with you HOZ. Potential IS Worth something to Gm's, maybe not to you as a fan. Take a look at last year. Do you consider the Niiniimaa trade equally foolish?

Niiniimaa - top 2 defenseman for the Oilers + x round pick (i don't remember)
for
Torres - UNPROVEN LW prospect. High 1st round pick
Isbister - 3rd/4th line winger with potential to be a power forward but never proven it (and still hasn't)

And yet after only a year now, Torres is the best player in the deal.

What about the Carter trade?

Carter - TOP line RW (for Oilers at least). regularly around 25g, 60 pt
Pisa - unproven dman prospect
for
Cross - veteran 5/6 dman
Dvorak - 35 pt and 37 pts in the past 2 years.

Another foolish trade perhaps?


IMO, Smith would be worth MORE to a Contending team than Florida. Say Philly, or NJ. Much like NYI's Milbury thinking that Niiniimaa was the last piece to be a contender and giving up a high draft pick like Torres for Niiniimaa. I don't think Florida would be willing to trade Weiss for just Smith alone, especially with Smith becoming a UFA in a year.

If you think so less of potential, then why not just trade away your 1st round picks away for established players much like Toronto and NYR has done for so many years?

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06-07-2004, 03:52 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by neogeo69
Got to disagree with you HOZ. Potential IS Worth something to Gm's, maybe not to you as a fan. Take a look at last year. Do you consider the Niiniimaa trade equally foolish?

And yet after only a year now, Torres is the best player in the deal.

What about the Carter trade?

IMO, Smith would be worth MORE to a Contending team than Florida. Say Philly, or NJ. Much like NYI's Milbury thinking that Niiniimaa was the last piece to be a contender and giving up a high draft pick like Torres for Niiniimaa. I don't think Florida would be willing to trade Weiss for just Smith alone, especially with Smith becoming a UFA in a year.

If you think so less of potential, then why not just trade away your 1st round picks away for established players much like Toronto and NYR has done for so many years?
I'll make my point more clear. Trading Smith for JUST Weiss is foolish. Just like you said Smith would be worth more to a contending team. Therefore we could get more for him and should.

As for the Niiminaa deal: Niiminaa is still the best player in the deal bar none. He had a bad year last year. And as you can see, Niiminaa, at top 4 defender, brought back more than a Weiss.

Carter deal is nothing like Niiminaas. The Oilers were walking a dog and got a good player in return for him. Hardly a prospect in any means of the word. Pisa and Cross were throw-ins.

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06-07-2004, 04:03 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines

But, as far as value, Woywitka and a First Rounder might prove to be a good return.
Woywitka is a fine player and I think he will be a good pro defender. Woywitka is better than Perry IMO. I just know that had there been no soap opera and Comrie signed with the Oilers....and then was traded he wouldhave brought back more to the Oilers.

You see...

"Might" has 2 sides to the coin there. And that is the whole problem. Good defensemen take years to develop (not counting the rare stars). Comrie wasn't no 34 year old vet with a big contract. As much as I think Comrie is a suck he is very unique in the world of hockey. How many 23 year (?) old centres, that can can score 60+ points, are there in the NHL? 3? 4?

IMO Comrie should have brought back 2-3 top prospects but the situation dictated otherwise.

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