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NHL may reject KOVY and Luongo deals. Issues Ultimatium.

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Old
09-02-2010, 04:51 PM
  #426
Gunnar Stahl 30
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Originally Posted by The Gibson Cup View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but the KHL doesn't have a CAP. Get rid of the cap then.
get rid of teh cap and we are pre lockout again. im not saying im against taht but if there was no cap there wouldnt be any of these problems

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09-02-2010, 04:53 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
get rid of teh cap and we are pre lockout again. im not saying im against taht but if there was no cap there wouldnt be any of these problems
And I said this before. In due time the cap will cost the NHL some players and you are agreeing with that?

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09-02-2010, 04:55 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
I think that you're right that changing the escrow would help this, but I doubt the NHL would agree to get rid of their only path to cost certainty.

It also comes down to how the cap is calculated. I'm not entirely clear on this matter, but I think that because the NHL doesn't retroactively pay the players up to the 57% level that dead cap space is basically money that players are not earning. But, like I said, I'm not completely clear on this.

Either way, could see a very simple way of circumventing this. Before the player retires just trade him to a team that wants to make the floor. Then they would carry the penalty after retirement.
sorry, i didn't mean the entire system, just the way the escrow is set up. i'm too lazy to look up the specifics of the escrow stuff, and they may be completely integral with each other, so correct me if i'm wrong. cap tied to revenue is fine, i wouldn't get rid of that, just in the specific instance where salary exceeds cap hit, instead of penalizing players during the year it happens, the cap hit to the team at the end of the contract would take care of that single type of discrepancy.

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09-02-2010, 04:55 PM
  #429
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While I am against contracts like these, I am also against the NHL voiding contracts they have previously approved

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09-02-2010, 04:55 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by The Gibson Cup View Post
And I said this before. In due time the cap will cost the NHL some players and you are agreeing with that?
im definitely agreeing with that and it maybe sooner rather than later

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09-02-2010, 04:56 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
get rid of teh cap and we are pre lockout again. im not saying im against taht but if there was no cap there wouldnt be any of these problems

two or three season afterwards--all superstars are in detroit, nyr and a few other teams and other teams like Edmonton has nothing but trash

although it would be interesting to see how much fun Burke would have with the leafs bank

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09-02-2010, 04:57 PM
  #432
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This has absolutely nothing to do with the draft - nothing and the draft is not "socialist" what so ever.... The draft order isn't "allocated" its earned based on success or lack of success.

The draft order is no more socialist that it is fascist...

Furthermore, my socialist assessment has more to do with how the league is run under this CBA, rather than how the leagues "draft order."

Furthermore the Hawks got better because they had a crappy owner that didn't care about the teams success in the first place, he died and immediately the Hawks got better.

Do you actually think the NHL and its "socialism" is the reason for the Hawks success? THINK AGAIN......

Dollar Bill Wirtz died, his son [who loves hockey and realized what it took to make money] came in and started hiring the best staff money could buy, then the Hawks made it clear they were willing to put the best product money could by on the ice...... Thats how they got BETTER - By spending money on top notch free agents.....

The Hawks have always been a large market team, it just so happens Bill Wirtz was CLUELESS on how to run a successful franchise, not to mention the Hawks lack of success wasn't due to their lack of spending but because Wirtz was an AWFUL owner...

To attempt to imply the Blackhawks are a product of your "draft pick socialism" theory is insane...
He is right, you are wrong. The draft is a socialistic event, it helps weaker teams try and become competitive.

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09-02-2010, 04:58 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
two or three season afterwards--all superstars are in detroit, nyr and a few other teams and other teams like Edmonton has nothing but trash

although it would be interesting to see how much fun Burke would have with the leafs bank
The KHL.

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09-02-2010, 04:59 PM
  #434
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He is right, you are wrong. The draft is a socialistic event, it helps weaker teams try and become competitive.
Revenue sharing???

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09-02-2010, 04:59 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
two or three season afterwards--all superstars are in detroit, nyr and a few other teams and other teams like Edmonton has nothing but trash

although it would be interesting to see how much fun Burke would have with the leafs bank
id rather have them in detroit than russia

im not saying there shouldnt be a cap but they are being way too strict for their own good

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09-02-2010, 04:59 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by wiredmaverick View Post
You are clearly very confused.

The NHL decides as an association that they should try and keep every team as competitive as possible, so the worst teams get first crack at the best draft picks, and there's a salary cap in place to make sure the more successful teams don't just sign everyone and become even more successful. If these "socialist" ideas weren't in place Toronto/Montreal would win the cup every year, as their success and fat wallets would lure in all the best players. That would be laissez-faire.

The draft is "cooperative management of the allocation of resources," and by the very definition you chose, that's socialism.
The Rangers tried this in the pre-cap days with little success.

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09-02-2010, 05:00 PM
  #437
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LOL at the thought that any considerable number of super stars will jump ship because they can't sign 10+ year deals. Even most stars don't get offered many more than 6 or 7 years, and these new rules would not suddenly make the KHL a more competitive or prestigious league. The Stanley Cup will still be what (most) all NHL players covet.

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09-02-2010, 05:00 PM
  #438
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its interesting because they basically say "Look, you can sign people beyond 40, thats cool. If players want the contract, give it to them. But long term contracts that go behind the age of 40, those years wont count against the cap"

completely calls a spade a spade. Flat out, play the years. If you ***** about this, its because you never intended on having the player play these years.
Absolutely agreed.

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09-02-2010, 05:01 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
all you people on the NHLs side....I hope you dont mind seeing alot of top end talent leaving for the khl

the NHL is allowing its only competitor to gain ground quickly.....it doesnt seem like they are even taking that into consideration
well until the KHL comes to North America and takes the stanley cup from Burke's cold dead hands--they are a minor league

The biigest misconception is the ALL teams in the KHL are in the black--most are in the red and last year--6 teams barely finished the season while others missed payrolls regularly

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09-02-2010, 05:01 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Really, so a team can sign a player who's 35 to a 15 year front loaded contract at a cap hit of 500k just as long as they're willing to unconditionally take the 500k cap hit for the next 14 years - good to know...

That seems like a bargain to me depending on the player.
trust me, for someone that is a fan of a team that had to go through only four years of an alyn mccauley buyout of $667k, it really is a thorn in the team's side. sure, it's not huge, but you're still at a competitive disadvantage. i can only imagine 15 years of something similar. plus, for the players you would actually consider doing this for, the hit would likely be closer to a million or more (for example, 7-7-4-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1, translates to a $2 mil hit for 15 years).

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09-02-2010, 05:03 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
well until the KHL comes to North America and takes the stanley cup from Burke's cold dead hands--they are a minor league

The biigest misconception is the ALL teams in the KHL are in the black--most are in the red and last year--6 teams barely finished the season while others missed payrolls regularly
they are still willing to pay the big bucks to anyone that even considers jumping ship from the NHL to the KHL. its not a matter of the KHL being better than the NHL, because they are WAY off that, but its a matter of them stealing superstar players from the NHL which they are getting closer to doing

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09-02-2010, 05:03 PM
  #442
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The KHL is not fun for a multi-millionaire.

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09-02-2010, 05:05 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by wiredmaverick View Post
You are clearly very confused.

The NHL decides as an association that they should try and keep every team as competitive as possible, so the worst teams get first crack at the best draft picks, and there's a salary cap in place to make sure the more successful teams don't just sign everyone and become even more successful. If these "socialist" ideas weren't in place Toronto/Montreal would win the cup every year, as their success and fat wallets would lure in all the best players. That would be laissez-faire.

The draft is "cooperative management of the allocation of resources," and by the very definition you chose, that's socialism.
NO, you're "assuming" that the "cheapest" teams will always Finish last.... Thats one fundamental flaw in your logic...

A teams salary has NOTHING to do with the allocation of draft picks or even where they may finish at the end of the season.

Now if we awarded draft picks based on a teams salary than I WOULD actually agree with you because that would Actually be socialism, however thats not the case.

Its almost like you're trying to have the best of both worlds here. On one hand you say "well, teams could buy all the best players and win cups forever" but on the other-hand you're saying "well cheapest teams always finish last so they should get the best picks"

There is absolutely ZERO proof for any of that and thats exactly why draft picks are not "socialist" in nature....

Let me ask you this - should a team that was at the cap ceiling all season but failed to make the playoffs be entitled to a top 5 pick if they finished say 9th in the West??? - NO and thats exactly why the draft order isn't socialist, there is no "cooperative management" the team finished 9th and their was no cooperation involved in that. Now if the team DID get a top 5 pick because they spent all that money but FAILED and they were "given" that pick based on expectations - that would be socialism... All compensation picks are socialist too [like the NYR and Cherp].

Not to mention we haven't even gotten into the trading of draft picks yet....

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09-02-2010, 05:08 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
they are still willing to pay the big bucks to anyone that even considers jumping ship from the NHL to the KHL. its not a matter of the KHL being better than the NHL, because they are WAY off that, but its a matter of them stealing superstar players from the NHL which they are getting closer to doing
I went to a few KHL games and talked to a few former NHLers(who I had known previously) who are there and while when the mic is in front of the them they are saying they are loving the KHL--around friends they are looking for almost any job in NA or elsewhere in Europe. There is problems witht he KHL and it will implode with a few years

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09-02-2010, 05:08 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
id rather have them in detroit than russia

im not saying there shouldnt be a cap but they are being way too strict for their own good

Honestly, even after all of this cap messing around the fact that Kovalchuk hasn't taken Medvedev's money and a guaranteed spot in Sochi and ran makes me believe that the NHL has little to fear from the KHL. Not saying that I could rigorously defend my position, but it is the way that I feel.

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09-02-2010, 05:09 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Now if we awarded draft picks based on a teams salary than I WOULD actually agree with you because that would Actually be socialism, however thats not the case.
Didn't Toronto have one of the higher payrolls last year?

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09-02-2010, 05:09 PM
  #447
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
well until the KHL comes to North America and takes the stanley cup from Burke's cold dead hands--they are a minor league

The biigest misconception is the ALL teams in the KHL are in the black--most are in the red and last year--6 teams barely finished the season while others missed payrolls regularly
This. The KHL is a joke league. They are no threat to the league. They don't even pay their players.

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09-02-2010, 05:15 PM
  #448
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NO, you're "assuming" that the "cheapest" teams will always Finish last.... Thats one fundamental flaw in your logic...

A teams salary has NOTHING to do with the allocation of draft picks or even where they may finish at the end of the season.

Now if we awarded draft picks based on a teams salary than I WOULD actually agree with you because that would Actually be socialism, however thats not the case.

Its almost like you're trying to have the best of both worlds here. On one hand you say "well, teams could buy all the best players and win cups forever" but on the other-hand you're saying "well cheapest teams always finish last so they should get the best picks"

There is absolutely ZERO proof for any of that and thats exactly why draft picks are not "socialist" in nature....

Let me ask you this - should a team that was at the cap ceiling all season but failed to make the playoffs be entitled to a top 5 pick if they finished say 9th in the West??? - NO and thats exactly why the draft order isn't socialist, there is no "cooperative management" the team finished 9th and their was no cooperation involved in that. Now if the team DID get a top 5 pick because they spent all that money but FAILED and they were "given" that pick based on expectations - that would be socialism... All compensation picks are socialist too [like the NYR and Cherp].

Not to mention we haven't even gotten into the trading of draft picks yet....
Look , your only digging your grave deeper. Read my last post and try to understand. This last jibberish says you not only fail to understand socialism, nor do you understand probability, correlation and variance and these are supposed to be evidence...

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09-02-2010, 05:17 PM
  #449
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Didn't Toronto have one of the higher payrolls last year?
Yes and thats a fantastic example of my point....

Although Toronto spent the most, they also failed.

So using their "draft pick socialist logic" Toronto WASN'T entitled to that 2nd overall pick had they still kept it because they spent too much..... You know, because you guys take all the good players and stuff.....

Meanwhile some teams are reluctant to hit the cap floor... I mean you'd really think in this "new competitive era" they would actually take advantage of how the league has bent over backwards to make it easier on them -- Nawwww.... Same story, different era..

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09-02-2010, 05:21 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
While I am against contracts like these, I am also against the NHL voiding contracts they have previously approved
I think the CBA specifically says that cap circumvention investigations have nothing to do with a contract being approved and just because a contract is approved doesn't mean it can't be challenged down the road.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
they are still willing to pay the big bucks to anyone that even considers jumping ship from the NHL to the KHL. its not a matter of the KHL being better than the NHL, because they are WAY off that, but its a matter of them stealing superstar players from the NHL which they are getting closer to doing
Players also want to be in the best league, playing for the Stanley Cup, in front of 10's of thousands of fans. The KHL can't offer any of those things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
NO, you're "assuming" that the "cheapest" teams will always Finish last.... Thats one fundamental flaw in your logic...

A teams salary has NOTHING to do with the allocation of draft picks or even where they may finish at the end of the season.

Now if we awarded draft picks based on a teams salary than I WOULD actually agree with you because that would Actually be socialism, however thats not the case.

Its almost like you're trying to have the best of both worlds here. On one hand you say "well, teams could buy all the best players and win cups forever" but on the other-hand you're saying "well cheapest teams always finish last so they should get the best picks"

There is absolutely ZERO proof for any of that and thats exactly why draft picks are not "socialist" in nature....

Let me ask you this - should a team that was at the cap ceiling all season but failed to make the playoffs be entitled to a top 5 pick if they finished say 9th in the West??? - NO and thats exactly why the draft order isn't socialist, there is no "cooperative management" the team finished 9th and their was no cooperation involved in that. Now if the team DID get a top 5 pick because they spent all that money but FAILED and they were "given" that pick based on expectations - that would be socialism... All compensation picks are socialist too [like the NYR and Cherp].

Not to mention we haven't even gotten into the trading of draft picks yet....
Yeah, you really don't understand what socialism is. The draft is absolutely socialism. The free market solution to signing young players is what they do in Euro leagues where teams sign children and develop them themselves and every team has a shot at going out and getting every player.

Time to turn off the Beck.

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