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Old
09-02-2010, 02:37 PM
  #51
NYR Sting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
I agree. if there was one single factor that outweighed the others it would be the backup goalie situation.
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
I never said a Backup was more important than a center, i just believe the former was more the reason why we didn't clinch a playoff spot.

It's not Biron per se, it's finally having a competent backup so that our
Star goalie doesn't burn out.
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
can i ask you where you are coming with this? the context of my posts were directed at coaching change. do yourself a favor and follow the the thread and the logic in responses.
When you make statements like this, one can infer that you're of the opinion that clinching a playoff spot with a team of this caliber is a goal worth striving for. That also means that you're saying the Rangers are going to fire this guy if the team again finishes one point out of the playoffs. I'm saying that it's ridiculous for such an arbitrary point of demarcation to be used as the determining factor for whether or not Johnny Torts continues to man the bench for this team, but such absurdities are par for the course when the club's plan and goals are so warped.

Do yourself a favor and put that great sense of logic to use.

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09-02-2010, 02:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
MDZ is not our PP QB????

If we miss the playoffs and the team doesn't play hard or battle consistently this season, I'm okay with replacing Torts, as long as there's a good candidate...
Oh yes he is.... how do they like to say it?

Its his job to lose.

Del Zotto is the PPQB going into 2010-11

Its his destiny and they are willing to let him take the lumps to learn the role at the NHL level. I'm surprised this is even debatable. I think its a given.


The future is Staal shuts them down and MDZ lights them up.

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Old
09-02-2010, 02:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
- I don't see Burnside suggesting that at all.
Then define "perpetual malaise". I interpretate it as being a never-ending period of stagnation. has sather been stagnant? Absolutely not. Far from it, actually. Sure, the man sits in an ivory tower, but I can't hate a guy who was one shootout away from 5 straight years in the playoffs. A good reason behind the team's regular season success has been Sather's ability to add pieces, not sitting on his hands and praying for Henrik to play God.


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- Drury and Gomez have never been number one centers for any healthy team.
I said possible No. 1 centers, meaning one or the other was eventually going to own that title. Gomez led all Devils centers in TOI and scoring in 2007, he led all Ranger centers in TOI and scoring in 2008 and he led all Montrwal centers in TOI and scoring in 2010.

If Gomez wasn't a No. 1 center on any of those teams (sans Dubi's short stint with jagr in 2008), please tell me who was.



Quote:
To call those two signings an effort on the part of Sather is absurd. Both of those signings were terrible decisions that were destined to fail from the start and you can't possibly consider them as an effort to address that need.

The results post-signings have nothing to do with Burnsides article. He was implying Sather sits still and ignores necessary improvements to his team, which is absolutely baseless and false. If you or Burnside want to post an article about failed UFA's, be my guest. But actually going out and signing big-ticket UFA's not only proves activity on the GM's part, but that he is also keen on improving the team.

At the time, Gomez and Drury were upgrades over Nylander and Cullen. It's funny, but I dont remember Burnside writing an article about Sather's inactivity on July 3, 2007, or July 4, 2008 or July 2, 2009.

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Pretty big assumption to make that either will ever develop into a number one center. Pretty dangerous one, too, from a long-term perspective. What do you if neither one reaches that goal?
So you would rather go out an acquire an expensive veteran No. 1 center, who will kill the cap and gut the system of prospects? Neil Smith? Is that you?

I'm willing to hedge my bets on Stepan and Dubinsky in 2011-12 than on a 35-year-old Marc Savard or an 8-million-dollar, 31-year-old Joe Thornton. Call me crazy



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Ridiculous. The most pressing need in the organization, BY FAR, is a number one center. He just handed out yet another awful contract to a guy that hardly plays and is utterly useless when his fists are inactive, and wasted a #10 pick on a goon
So saying one of the 20 best forward prospects in the world and a gifted playmaker will be a No. 1 center is a "big" and "dangerous" assumption, but you already know that one of the top d-men in a deep draft will be a "goon"? Hmmm. OK. I see how that works.

The Rangers have been a soft team for a long time. They always had skill up front, especially since the lockout. There is enough skill on this team to compensate for a No. 1 center. but it's sad when Dubinsky and Avery are the guys you needed to turn to when the gloves were dropped.

While I agree thatthe team needs a legit No. 1 center to compete in the East, they aren't growing on trees. Sather and Torts are making due with what's available to them, and sadly, there is no No. 1 Center available right now.

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Old
09-02-2010, 03:03 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
When you make statements like this, one can infer that you're of the opinion that clinching a playoff spot with a team of this caliber is a goal worth striving for. That also means that you're saying the Rangers are going to fire this guy if the team again finishes one point out of the playoffs. I'm saying that it's ridiculous for such an arbitrary point of demarcation to be used as the determining factor for whether or not Johnny Torts continues to man the bench for this team, but such absurdities are par for the course when the club's plan and goals are so warped.

Do yourself a favor and put that great sense of logic to use.
Nothing I posted would give you license to make huge jumps in (ill)logic like what you just wrote.
Iím standing behind Torts saying that a true backup (something torts lobbied for during the season)
Could have been the difference in making the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
... That also means that you're saying the Rangers are going to fire this guy if the team again finishes one point out of the playoffs. I'm saying that it's ridiculous for such an arbitrary point of demarcation to be used as the determining factor for whether or not Johnny Torts continues to man the bench for this team...
This assumption is a product solely of your imagination. You are so far off base, itís not even funny.

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Old
09-02-2010, 03:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
Then define "perpetual malaise". I interpretate it as being a never-ending period of stagnation.
I know you're not asking me, but malaise as a noun also means: a complex of problems affecting a country, economy, etc...which I think very aptly describes the Rangers under Sather's tutelage. A complex of problems that leads to heavy roster turnover each offseason (this year not so much). I don't interpret the comment as never-ending stagnation...but rather never-ending problems.

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09-02-2010, 03:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Probably this:

Ogie:


Your response:


I think he just quoted you as your was the last sorta post in that brief thread of dialogue (ogie, chosen, you).

In all honesty... I really donít care what you think, HE thinks...Can i ask you politely to stop responding to my posts instead of the person i'm directly corresponding with?


THANKS!

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09-02-2010, 03:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
I know you're not asking me, but malaise as a noun also means: a complex of problems affecting a country, economy, etc...which I think very aptly describes the Rangers under Sather's tutelage. A complex of problems that leads to heavy roster turnover each offseason (this year not so much). I don't interpret the comment as never-ending stagnation...but rather never-ending problems.
Unbelievable.

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09-02-2010, 03:10 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
In all honesty... I really don’t care what you think, HE thinks...Can i ask you politely to stop responding to my posts instead of the person i'm directly corresponding with?


THANKS!

Typical Nikky outburst.

No can do, compadre. But thanks for asking

However, might I suggest that if you are indeed looking for one-on-one interaction, the PM feature on this site is exemplary.


Last edited by Shadowtron: 09-02-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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Old
09-02-2010, 03:11 PM
  #59
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Unbelievable.
Oh dear, I think Nikky's upset again. And here I thought we were buddies. Does this mean I'm back on your **** list?

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09-02-2010, 03:17 PM
  #60
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everyone pay attention to me i'm a smart person on the internet.

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Old
09-02-2010, 03:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
Typical Nikky outburst.

No can do, compadre. But thanks for asking

However, might I suggest that if you are indeed looking for one-on-one interaction, the PM feature on this site is exemplary.

1. # Flaming: Do not post any messages that harass, ... Quotes by other members are not to be edited. You may reply to a partial quote, but do not change the quoted content in any way. No one likes to be misrepresented or have words put in their mouth.

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09-02-2010, 03:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Oh yes he is.... how do they like to say it?

Its his job to lose.

Del Zotto is the PPQB going into 2010-11

Its his destiny and they are willing to let him take the lumps to learn the role at the NHL level. I'm surprised this is even debatable. I think its a given.


The future is Staal shuts them down and MDZ lights them up.
I agree...the writing is pretty well up on the wall for MDZ as a PPQB. The one thing the PP has lacked since the Leetch-days (IMO) is a D-man who can keep the puck in the zone. Leetch could Matrix that puck on the blue line

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Old
09-02-2010, 04:00 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
Then define "perpetual malaise". I interpretate it as being a never-ending period of stagnation. has sather been stagnant? Absolutely not. Far from it, actually. Sure, the man sits in an ivory tower, but I can't hate a guy who was one shootout away from 5 straight years in the playoffs. A good reason behind the team's regular season success has been Sather's ability to add pieces, not sitting on his hands and praying for Henrik to play God.
This is a joke, right? The team hasn't had any regular season success, and if it wasn't for Henrik playing like a God, the playoff-less streak would still be alive and well.

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I said possible No. 1 centers, meaning one or the other was eventually going to own that title. Gomez led all Devils centers in TOI and scoring in 2007, he led all Ranger centers in TOI and scoring in 2008 and he led all Montrwal centers in TOI and scoring in 2010.
My mistake, I should have said on a serious contending team. Yes, Gomez was the number one center on that Devils team, which then decided (rightly so) to not meet his salary demands since he clearly wasn't good enough in that role to commit any sort of large finances to.

Just to clarify, Montreal didn't really have a number one line since they don't have a real number one center. But in recieving the same amount of ice time as Gomez last season, Tomas Plekanec outscored him by 12 or 13 points, if memory serves correctly.

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If Gomez wasn't a No. 1 center on any of those teams (sans Dubi's short stint with jagr in 2008), please tell me who was.
My point here is that just because there is no better choice on a team for that role doesn't make him a number one center. The Rangers didn't have anyone else to even put in the conversation in 2008, so he was our number one center. That doesn't mean he would be a number one center on a good team.

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The results post-signings have nothing to do with Burnsides article. He was implying Sather sits still and ignores necessary improvements to his team, which is absolutely baseless and false. If you or Burnside want to post an article about failed UFA's, be my guest. But actually going out and signing big-ticket UFA's not only proves activity on the GM's part, but that he is also keen on improving the team.
You see, the point Burnside is making IMO is that Sather has yet to make an effort to make improvements. When you have a need for a number one center, signing a number two and a number three center is not an effort to fill that hole. It's not an effort to improve the team either. It's a terrible decision that was bound to make the team worse, which it did.

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At the time, Gomez and Drury were upgrades over Nylander and Cullen. It's funny, but I dont remember Burnside writing an article about Sather's inactivity on July 3, 2007, or July 4, 2008 or July 2, 2009.
So replacing to non-first line centers with two other non-first line centers is something that you classify as an attempt at improvement? I mean, yes, perhaps in the twisted mind of Glen Sather these moves were seen as an improvement. But just doing something for the sake of doing something, even when it's in poor judgement, doesn't make it a legit attempt at improvement.

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So you would rather go out an acquire an expensive veteran No. 1 center, who will kill the cap and gut the system of prospects? Neil Smith? Is that you?
I've never, EVER said such a thing, and in fact, even in this thread, have repeated what I have been saying for YEARS: if you want a number one center, you're going to have to either finish low enough in the standings to nab a very high draft pick, or get incredibly lucky and find one elsewhere in the draft. Lundqvist, aside, the Rangers aren't exactly great at finding superstars in any round of the draft.

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I'm willing to hedge my bets on Stepan and Dubinsky in 2011-12 than on a 35-year-old Marc Savard or an 8-million-dollar, 31-year-old Joe Thornton. Call me crazy
Again, I would never want the Rangers to acquire either of those players, Nor do I think that that is what Burnside was pushing for with this blurb, either. Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit. Maybe he really is stupid enough to blame Sather for failing to acquire a number one center VIA trade or free agency when the only one that was available in either category was a fragile, concussed 31-year-old like Savard.

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So saying one of the 20 best forward prospects in the world and a gifted playmaker will be a No. 1 center is a "big" and "dangerous" assumption, but you already know that one of the top d-men in a deep draft will be a "goon"? Hmmm. OK. I see how that works.
Yes, I believe that Derek Stepan is a great young prospect who will end up being a very good second line center, and that Dylan McIlrath, who has very limited hockey sense, is the classic big body that gets drafted much higher than he should be. My track record with prospects is pretty solid, for the most part, so I'm pretty confident that I've got both guys pegged. I'll only be thrilled if I'm underestimating either.

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The Rangers have been a soft team for a long time. They always had skill up front, especially since the lockout. There is enough skill on this team to compensate for a No. 1 center. but it's sad when Dubinsky and Avery are the guys you needed to turn to when the gloves were dropped.
At what point exactly have they always had skill up front. In this league, one serious offensive talent (which is all they've had at any point since the lockout) is not enough to win, and there is certainly not enough skill on this team to compensate for a number one center. I think it's a lot sadder that people are so concerned with fighting instead of talent, which this team sorely lacks.

Quote:
While I agree thatthe team needs a legit No. 1 center to compete in the East, they aren't growing on trees. Sather and Torts are making due with what's available to them, and sadly, there is no No. 1 Center available right now.
Well, there are. Sather and Torts just aren't willing to do what's necessary to get them.

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09-02-2010, 06:03 PM
  #64
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I think Tortorella's position is much more tenous than what most believe. Last season was one of the worst multiple month stretches I have ever seen. If the team tunes him out again starting in Nov, he'll be gone by Christmas.

Dolan and Sather are not going to wait 4 months before making a change as they remember how those 40-60 games mid season cost them a PO spot.

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09-02-2010, 06:58 PM
  #65
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This is a joke, right? The team hasn't had any regular season success, and if it wasn't for Henrik playing like a God, the playoff-less streak would still be alive and well.
I love seeing lines like this, so if Crosby wasn't playing well like uh.....Crosby the pens wouldn't have won the Stanley Cup!! By using this logic any team with an elite player should be discounted because they have said player. Brilliant!!!

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09-02-2010, 07:00 PM
  #66
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Sting,



I am no real fan of either Sather or Torts. But I'm not only looking at this offseason and our weaknesses realistically. I'm also wondering who the heck is available that is better to run this team than what we already have?

We may never know where McIlrath was on Sather's draft board, and he may very well have targeted centers like Johanssen or Granlund or Burmistrov or Skinner.

So if Sather drafts Granlund, is Burnside changing his tune, because drafting a center with a top-10 pick is an "effort" to fix an area in need?


My take on the whole No. 1 center situation is that the Rangers currently have three candidates (Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan) who could one day become a No. 1 center.

Ever since the Norstrom/Laperriere/Ferraro trade, i swore to myself that I would NEVER support the trading of youth for a short term fix. In fact, i remember Neil Smith in between periods one game back in 1997 said something along the lines of "We are going to hold on the Christian Dube's and Marc Savard's"...and then he goes out and trades Savard.

For once, I'm glad Sather is refraining from trading kids, and that Torts is making them EARN spots out of camp.

In my opinion, it's the law of averages with our prospects. The FO has amassed a lot of assets -- a small chunk of them are bound to be good (possibly great) NHL'ers. I see no reason why we can't think highly of Stepan and Dubinsky when pretty much the whole league does as well.

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09-02-2010, 07:03 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
Sting,



I am no real fan of either Sather or Torts. But I'm not only looking at this offseason and our weaknesses realistically. I'm also wondering who the heck is available that is better to run this team than what we already have?

We may never know where McIlrath was on Sather's draft board, and he may very well have targeted centers like Johanssen or Granlund or Burmistrov or Skinner.

So if Sather drafts Granlund, is Burnside changing his tune, because drafting a center with a top-10 pick is an "effort" to fix an area in need?


My take on the whole No. 1 center situation is that the Rangers currently have three candidates (Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan) who could one day become a No. 1 center.

Ever since the Norstrom/Laperriere/Ferraro trade, i swore to myself that I would NEVER support the trading of youth for a short term fix. In fact, i remember Neil Smith in between periods one game back in 1997 said something along the lines of "We are going to hold on the Christian Dube's and Marc Savard's"...and then he goes out and trades Savard.

For once, I'm glad Sather is refraining from trading kids, and that Torts is making them EARN spots out of camp.

In my opinion, it's the law of averages with our prospects. The FO has amassed a lot of assets -- a small chunk of them are bound to be good (possibly great) NHL'ers. I see no reason why we can't think highly of Stepan and Dubinsky when pretty much the whole league does as well.

agreed. im glad the rangers arent trading much youth. alot of teams build their team through the draft. the rangers should have done this years ago.

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Old
09-02-2010, 07:36 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Gemma View Post
I love seeing lines like this, so if Crosby wasn't playing well like uh.....Crosby the pens wouldn't have won the Stanley Cup!! By using this logic any team with an elite player should be discounted because they have said player. Brilliant!!!
Why not read the previous posts? You'd see that Media Savvy Lee posted about how Glen Sather made moves to ensure that the team could make the playoffs WITHOUT Henrik playing like a God. I don't think that was the case, thus my post. The only thing I'm discounting is the notion that it wasn't Lundqvist playing so superbly that led to playoff appearances.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
Sting,

I am no real fan of either Sather or Torts. But I'm not only looking at this offseason and our weaknesses realistically. I'm also wondering who the heck is available that is better to run this team than what we already have?

We may never know where McIlrath was on Sather's draft board, and he may very well have targeted centers like Johanssen or Granlund or Burmistrov or Skinner.
Well, had the team truly committed itself to rebuilding, we'd have had a higher pick and the chance to select Johanssen, who would certainly qualify as a potential number one center. Or better yet, Seguin. You want to really set yourself up for years of success? Get yourself a guy like that to build a team around.

Quote:
My take on the whole No. 1 center situation is that the Rangers currently have three candidates (Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan) who could one day become a No. 1 center.

Ever since the Norstrom/Laperriere/Ferraro trade, i swore to myself that I would NEVER support the trading of youth for a short term fix. In fact, i remember Neil Smith in between periods one game back in 1997 said something along the lines of "We are going to hold on the Christian Dube's and Marc Savard's"...and then he goes out and trades Savard.

For once, I'm glad Sather is refraining from trading kids, and that Torts is making them EARN spots out of camp.
Right, but I'm not saying that any of these players should be traded. I'm right with you. I can't stand seeing young prospects traded for quick fixes. I'm just of the opinion that the move toward not trading away youth is only part of the solution. You also need to get a bunch of players that are capable of filling all of the roles you need filled. I'm fairly confident that hasn't happened yet.

Quote:
In my opinion, it's the law of averages with our prospects. The FO has amassed a lot of assets -- a small chunk of them are bound to be good (possibly great) NHL'ers. I see no reason why we can't think highly of Stepan and Dubinsky when pretty much the whole league does as well.
You can certainly think highly of both of them. I do. Just not THAT highly. Big fan of both players. Ryan Callahan is my favorite Ranger other than Lundqvist, but just because I think highly of him doesn't mean I have to set unrealistic expectations for them, which is what I think is happening a lot around here. Dubinsky is a great second liner. I think Stepan will be as well. I'm a big fan of Anisimov, but I don't think he's going to be a first line center, either. No one will be more pleased to see any of them surpass my expectations for them. But why not build a team with less of a gamble and more of a sure thing? Are you that confident that Stepan will be that man? The Rangers might be, but I find little solace in that based on the decisions they were confident about in the past.

If this team's biggest problem is the lack of a #1 center (which I believe it is), then I don't think Sather has made nearly enough of an effort to fill that hole. Hopefully, Stepan can do it, but if he can't...what then? Then you have to draft another guy and wait till he develops. It's pretty tough to get a #1 center on the trade market, and it's going to be even less likely that teams surrender their top pivots to free agency.

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09-03-2010, 10:47 AM
  #69
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* i don't see how the coaching change shows duplicity regarding the direction the org. says they desire to head in?
If you really cant see a correlation, then I dont know how to help you.

Every single decision a GM makes should be an extension of some sort of plan. Now, Im not about to argue whether it was time for Renney to go or not, but the reasons that were given for the Tortorella hiring (uptempo style, take the team to the next level, etc) showed that the GM and a large portion of the fanbase displayed a very poor understanding of the personnel problems this organization had from the second Jagr left.

All of sudden, currently, being cap-****ed for a couple more years and holding onto prospects constitutes some sort of organizational plan? It doesnt pass the smell test as it is, and it certainly doesnt when you consider Sather's track record here.

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09-04-2010, 06:44 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by ogie View Post
What many aren't taking into account is that by simply getting a solid backup like Biron we have already greatly improved our chances of making the playoffs.

Last year our backups played 10 games only winning three of those games. If Biron can win even three more games that can give you 6 additional points. Which takes us from 87 to 93 points. Now the average amount of points needed to lock down the number 8 seed in the playoffs is 91.8 so say 92. That puts us in the playoffs.

sorry - what was our back up goalie record?
Back up goalies played a few games and of those few games Biron might have won 1 or 2 more - if that.

The main issue here is Sather. His complete retooling of the squad year in year out is doing us no favours. Signing Redden was close to catastrophic. Committing us to Gomez and Drury aweful. Replacing Jagr with Naslund in decline gave us another wasted year. What was Slats thinking putting 35 year old naslund with Gomez who couldn't work with Jagr? And is the Avery reclamation project really working?

And finally f I am not sure Torts is the man for the job.

His shtick about people buying into his system and skating harder is wearing thin. Its the coach's
job to get the best out of the players he has got. He needs to recognize that his style hockey may
not suit half his team and then can't drone on with it. I am all for 150 pct fitness and 150 pct effort
but that only gets you that far. You need some smarts about it too.

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Old
09-04-2010, 09:45 AM
  #71
Black Tank
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Originally Posted by Happy London Ranger View Post
sorry - what was our back up goalie record?
Back up goalies played a few games and of those few games Biron might have won 1 or 2 more - if that.

The main issue here is Sather. His complete retooling of the squad year in year out is doing us no favours. Signing Redden was close to catastrophic. Committing us to Gomez and Drury aweful. Replacing Jagr with Naslund in decline gave us another wasted year. What was Slats thinking putting 35 year old naslund with Gomez who couldn't work with Jagr? And is the Avery reclamation project really working?

And finally f I am not sure Torts is the man for the job.

His shtick about people buying into his system and skating harder is wearing thin. Its the coach's
job to get the best out of the players he has got. He needs to recognize that his style hockey may
not suit half his team and then can't drone on with it. I am all for 150 pct fitness and 150 pct effort
but that only gets you that far. You need some smarts about it too.
Tortorella's inability to adapt to the talent level he has is really concerning going into the new season. As soon as the yelling wears off, the team goes into the long winter malaise and then revives to make a last desperate PO gambit. That's not going to work with this level of competition for PO spots.

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Old
09-04-2010, 10:13 AM
  #72
NikC
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If you really cant see a correlation, then I dont know how to help you.

Every single decision a GM makes should be an extension of some sort of plan. Now, Im not about to argue whether it was time for Renney to go or not, but the reasons that were given for the Tortorella hiring (uptempo style, take the team to the next level, etc) showed that the GM and a large portion of the fanbase displayed a very poor understanding of the personnel problems this organization had from the second Jagr left.

All of sudden, currently, being cap-****ed for a couple more years and holding onto prospects constitutes some sort of organizational plan? It doesnt pass the smell test as it is, and it certainly doesnt when you consider Sather's track record here.
changing coaches/styles never indicated that the NYR were changing directions, and nothing you wrote above proves otherwise.

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Old
09-04-2010, 12:24 PM
  #73
Bleed Ranger Blue
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
changing coaches/styles never indicated that the NYR were changing directions, and nothing you wrote above proves otherwise.
You've fooled yourself into believing there is some sort of direction, which is mistake #1.

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Old
09-04-2010, 01:54 PM
  #74
NikC
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You've fooled yourself into believing there is some sort of direction, which is mistake #1.
rebuilding while staying competitive that was, is the direction.

no one is fooling themselves with anything here, i've just accepted the above, you and others wont. too bad, you'd save yourselves alot of aggravation.

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Old
09-04-2010, 01:57 PM
  #75
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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rebuilding while staying competitive
Interesting how the team has really done neither.

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