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It's 1991: You have Cam Neely on the trading block. Who is worth his value?

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Old
09-02-2010, 08:52 PM
  #51
Big Phil
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Okay..........................

Shall we try and answer some more questions here? To ushvinder, I think it is a very real possibility that I do not give up Oates for Neely either, this is why I put him in the HM category. Now that I think of it, I wold put Oates in the elite category of guys that I wouldn't trade for Neely. On another note, I think Yzerman was viewed as more valuable at that time for the very reason that he did in 1991 what he always did and the fans and GMs knew he would do it again, and again. Oates kind of came out of nowhere and dominated in 1991. I still like them both over Neely, but in tranplanting my mind back to 1991 my gut would tell me to pick Yzerman over Oates. I agree though, from 1991-'95 Oates was better though, but let's try and keep on track with what I had originally hoped for in this thread.

Okay, Wayne, Mario, Roy, Bourque, Mess are all untouchable. Yzerman and Hull are about as close to it as possible. Oates and MacInnis are guys I wouldn't part with either if I had a gun to my head. So let's get to the tougher choices. Answer this for me folks, or throw in your own opinions.

Sakic - He had a very good year in 1991, he had his 2nd straight 100+ point year. Someone mentioned that a 1991 Sakic is not the one we remember, but IMO he's certainly comparable to Neely at the time and a decent case can be made in his favour.

Recchi - Came out of nowhere in 1991. Had an alright rookie campaign in 1990 but rocketed to 113 points. I think though that he was still a little green in 1991, even with the Cup run. I'd have reservations about him being a flash in the pan at that time. Obviously I would be wrong, but it might cause me to back out

Fleury - Had 51 goals just like Neely. He kind of had his coming out party in 1991, but for the same reasons as Recchi, I think I'd be nervous giving up Neely for him

Belfour - Ditto the last two

Francis - Someone mentioned him earlier. You know what, he was never as good as Neely in his prime IMO. Francis was always exactly what he was, a solid two-way player who threatened 80, 90, 100 points but didn't deviate from his usual position as a top 15-20 player in the game

Lafontaine - Maybe him, here's why. Like Francis he didn't outpoint Neely in 1991 either. But he had that amazing season in 1990 and a few good ones before that. You get the idea that Lafontaine would generate a lot of discussion if his name came up in a Neely trade suggestion.

Chelios - He is close to the elite list for me. Leetch wasn't there yet until 1992 but Chelios had his Norris in 1989, but had two seasons leading up to 1991 where he had taken a step back, I thought. I wouldn't part with Neely for him

Coffey - Almost the same as Chelios. Only this time I think Coffey actually did start to decline around this time while Chelios got even better. It's easy saying this because we know this now, but in 1991? Well I have to say, it would be close but I think Neely still wins on this one

Who am I forgetting that can have a case be made for them

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09-02-2010, 09:05 PM
  #52
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Physical Winger

If you are trading a Neely then a physical winger with an offensive upside has to be coming back. otherwise you do not make the trade especially if Neely is healthy.

Consider scenarios involving Brendan Shanahan, Gary Roberts, Kevin Steevens, Shane Corson or Owen Nolan with other players included to fill other weaknesses.

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09-02-2010, 09:09 PM
  #53
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Neely for Sakic

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09-02-2010, 11:20 PM
  #54
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In 1991, I would say Neely had far more value than Chelios.

Chelios was 4 years older and wasn't quite at the dominant level he was at in 1989, and there were questions about how much longer he could play that ridiculous style of cagefighting..err..hockey before his body wore down. Of course, we know how that turned out. God, that 1993 season was one of the most all-around dominant seasons I have ever seen by a defenseman.

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09-02-2010, 11:44 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Okay..........................

Shall we try and answer some more questions here? To ushvinder, I think it is a very real possibility that I do not give up Oates for Neely either, this is why I put him in the HM category. Now that I think of it, I wold put Oates in the elite category of guys that I wouldn't trade for Neely. On another note, I think Yzerman was viewed as more valuable at that time for the very reason that he did in 1991 what he always did and the fans and GMs knew he would do it again, and again. Oates kind of came out of nowhere and dominated in 1991. I still like them both over Neely, but in tranplanting my mind back to 1991 my gut would tell me to pick Yzerman over Oates. I agree though, from 1991-'95 Oates was better though, but let's try and keep on track with what I had originally hoped for in this thread.

Okay, Wayne, Mario, Roy, Bourque, Mess are all untouchable. Yzerman and Hull are about as close to it as possible. Oates and MacInnis are guys I wouldn't part with either if I had a gun to my head. So let's get to the tougher choices. Answer this for me folks, or throw in your own opinions.

Sakic - He had a very good year in 1991, he had his 2nd straight 100+ point year. Someone mentioned that a 1991 Sakic is not the one we remember, but IMO he's certainly comparable to Neely at the time and a decent case can be made in his favour.

Recchi - Came out of nowhere in 1991. Had an alright rookie campaign in 1990 but rocketed to 113 points. I think though that he was still a little green in 1991, even with the Cup run. I'd have reservations about him being a flash in the pan at that time. Obviously I would be wrong, but it might cause me to back out

Fleury - Had 51 goals just like Neely. He kind of had his coming out party in 1991, but for the same reasons as Recchi, I think I'd be nervous giving up Neely for him

Belfour - Ditto the last two

Francis - Someone mentioned him earlier. You know what, he was never as good as Neely in his prime IMO. Francis was always exactly what he was, a solid two-way player who threatened 80, 90, 100 points but didn't deviate from his usual position as a top 15-20 player in the game

Lafontaine - Maybe him, here's why. Like Francis he didn't outpoint Neely in 1991 either. But he had that amazing season in 1990 and a few good ones before that. You get the idea that Lafontaine would generate a lot of discussion if his name came up in a Neely trade suggestion.

Chelios - He is close to the elite list for me. Leetch wasn't there yet until 1992 but Chelios had his Norris in 1989, but had two seasons leading up to 1991 where he had taken a step back, I thought. I wouldn't part with Neely for him

Coffey - Almost the same as Chelios. Only this time I think Coffey actually did start to decline around this time while Chelios got even better. It's easy saying this because we know this now, but in 1991? Well I have to say, it would be close but I think Neely still wins on this one

Who am I forgetting that can have a case be made for them
If we are talking about the 1991-94 Neely and imagine that he remains healthy, then No I would actually keep him instead of trading him for guys like recci, fluery, etc. If I was the GM of the boston bruins, I would never trade healthy neely for guys like sakic and yzerman because I it would be better to find a centermen that can pass the puck to Neely. Neely had those two monster playoff runs in 1990 and 1991, so his stock was very high.

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09-02-2010, 11:51 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Who am I forgetting that can have a case be made for them
Robitaille? I'd say you pretty much have it covered though.

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09-04-2010, 02:01 PM
  #57
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It's the summer of 1991, players I would take over Neely (or wouldn't trade straight up for Neely)

Ray Bourque
Patrick Roy
Joe Sakic
Mats Sundin **
Chris Chelios
Jeremy Roenick **
Ed Belfour **
Brett Hull
Scott Stevens
Adam Oates **
Steve Yzerman
Sergei Fedorov **
Mike Modano **
Mario Lemieux
Jaromir Jagr **
Kevin Stevens **
Brian Leetch **
Wayne Gretzky
Al MacInnis
Mark Messier
Eric Lindros


** Neely was better at the time, but I wouldn't trade for Neely due to age/position/other factors


Last edited by John Flyers Fan: 09-04-2010 at 02:35 PM.
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09-04-2010, 02:12 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I know Lextune who posts on here often enough has always said that he feels there were precious few players in the NHL at the time - 1991 - that were better than Neely, or had more trade value.
I agree entirely with Lextune.

At that specific point in time, he was easily among the most valuable players in the NHL. His impact on his team was exceeeded by very few.

Now, if one wants to simply do a side-by-side comparsion of players' respective talents and careers, that's another topic perhaps.

But the two perspectives should not be confused.

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09-04-2010, 02:43 PM
  #59
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lol well... if it really is just 1991 since I don't think ive seen his name mentioned...

bernie nicholls


Its only 1991. So at that time is the 70 goal season still considered a "fluke" of sorts? It is still reasonable to consider him a 50 goal scorer though? Is he considered injury prone at this point?

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09-05-2010, 01:35 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
If you are trading a Neely then a physical winger with an offensive upside has to be coming back. otherwise you do not make the trade especially if Neely is healthy.

Consider scenarios involving Brendan Shanahan, Gary Roberts, Kevin Steevens, Shane Corson or Owen Nolan with other players included to fill other weaknesses.
Only Stevens on that list has a case that can be made in his favour, and even then it would be hard enough

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09-05-2010, 01:38 AM
  #61
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lol well... if it really is just 1991 since I don't think ive seen his name mentioned...

bernie nicholls


Its only 1991. So at that time is the 70 goal season still considered a "fluke" of sorts? It is still reasonable to consider him a 50 goal scorer though? Is he considered injury prone at this point?
I wouldn't pick Nicholls because while he did have that 70 goal season, by 1991 he had come back to earth. He had a 73 point season in 1991. He was slowly starting to decline. The biggest thing he had on Neely over his career was the ability to outscore him. Since this didn't happen anymore and Nicholls was not a dominating player I couldn't see anyone thinking Neely for Nicholls would be a good trade

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09-06-2010, 04:18 PM
  #62
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Neely?
Provided that Edmonton keeps Messier, I'm offering Tikkanen and Fuhr to Boston and see if they bite.

Remember : Edmonton has Ranford.
And the prospect of having a Messier/Neely line is just scary.

Or even better : Klima, Fuhr and something else (high pick/prospect) for Neely.

Tiki/Mess/Neely on the top line. Enjoy.

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09-06-2010, 05:04 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
No, but this has nothing to do with Malkin. He already outpeaked Yzerman anyways. We dont know how thier careers will play out. It was obvious to me that Oates ended up better than Yzerman from 1991-2003.

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09-06-2010, 05:13 PM
  #64
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I love how you (someone who never even actually saw Yzerman play back then) constantly bash him.
Even when Stevie had his 155 point season, he was still defensively responsible.
You constantly try and portrait him as some kind of floater or cherry picker when that was never the case with him EVER.

In fact, out of all the star players in the 80's that put up big points, Messier and Trottier are the only two that come to mind that were more defensively responsible than Yzerman.

All he did was put even more effort into the defensive side after he finally got some support in Detroit, Bowman demanded it and after he lost a step due to a knee injury.

All you have to do is answer one question...how many 100+ point players do you know of that block shots, especially in the 80's? Rare breed folks.
Yzerman was not exactly defensively responsible early in his career. Particularly that year. He was used in all situations, but he still did many things that endangered goals against. Trying to dipsy doodle through traffic instead of making the safer pass. Trying to make dangerous passes that were often intercepted, and not backchecking as much as one would like. His offensive game more than made up for it at the time though.

Ill just quote someone who already wrote a nice piece on this.


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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
For what it's worth you're beliefs about Yzerman's game are not shared by Jim Devellano who was the general manager of the Red Wings at the time. Not to offend your credentials but there is no bigger supporter of Yzerman than Devellano who did watch every game Yzerman ever played with Detroit, in addition to a large number of his junior games in Peterborough.

At our SIHR meeting, Devellano admitted that Yzerman was not what you would call a 200 foot player. He admitted openly that Yzerman was lacking in defensive skills and effort. In part, this was due to the nature of the team and the situation. As I pointed out before the Red Wings were not the successful franchise of today. Yzerman, was encouraged to focus exclusively on his offense as scoring and not tight checking sells tickets.

When asked by the assembled crowd why Mike Keenan cut Yzerman from both the 1987 and 1991 Canada Cup team's Devellano openly said it was because he was not a 200 foot player. For Keenan to cut him from those rosters says a lot about how porous Yzerman's defensive game was at the time and not to the above-average defensive game you speak of.

Furthermore, Devellano spoke quite openly about the relationship between Yzerman and Scotty Bowman was in the beginning. Bowman was openly dismissive about Yzerman's defensive game and especially his committment to it. Such was the acrimony that the Red Wings did have trade talks with the Ottawa Senators about Yzerman's services, Devellano confirmed to the group. The only reason the deal didn't go through, according to Devellano was that the Senators never made an acceptable offer.

In this particular battle of wills Bowman eventually won out and Yzerman soon evolved into the better all-around player for it and Detroit became the better team.
I have made dozens of posts on this matter based on what I saw with my own eyes.

But in the case of this thread, I do not know why Yzerman's name is coming up. There is no way I would ever trade him for Neely, and I am a huge Neely supporter.

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09-06-2010, 07:59 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I've always found this debate interesting. I know Lextune who posts on here often enough has always said that he feels there were precious few players in the NHL at the time - 1991 - that were better than Neely, or had more trade value. This usually comes up in a Neely HHOF argument. I've heard him say it before and personally I want to devote more time to it. I'm going to try and ignore age the best I can at this time (even though most of the superstars in 1991 were close in age) and just decide who I would have wanted on my team in 1991 over Neely. We all know that injuries hurt Cam after 1991 but pretend that we are ignorant to that, after all, it's 1991. Let's debate this issue.

Gretzky - No argument
Lemieux - No argument, Neely's mother would agree I am sure
Roy - I couldn't part with him
Bourque - Same team I know, but either way Bourque was better in 1991
Messier - still couldn't part with him
Yzerman - Too much talent and even at that pre-Cup time it isn't as if Yzerman was a guy who had no heart
MacInnis - This was smack dab in the middle of his prime. I wouldn't have traded him for Neely
Hull - 86 goals and an MVP trophy. Neely never hit "Hull-like" prime either

Those guys for sure I wouldn't rate below Neely that year. Then it gets a little tricky. Here are some honourable mentions. Recchi, Fleury, Oates, Sakic, even a young Roenick, Lafontaine

Debate away!
Man! I'm late to the party! That's what I get for taking a summer vacation from the board

Well; as Big Phil mentioned in the OP, my contention has always been, (and remains), that Cam was, with little doubt, among the most elite players in the world at the time in question.

My quote has always been:

Quote:
It's the end of the 90/91 regular season. Other than Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Yzerman, Roy and Hull, name any player, (Bourque was already a Bruin ), who would not have been traded in a heartbeat for Neely. And then tell me how Cam was not among the most elite players in the world.
....Phil and I named the same seven players, with Phil throwing in MacInnis, (which I can give in to), but that still leaves cam as one of the top six forwards in the world. (And he went on to have one of the great goal scoring playoff runs in history that spring, before Ulf........).

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09-06-2010, 09:04 PM
  #66
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I don't know what's so funny. The only possible arguments for Yzerman will come from biased people who were naive enough to actually watch hockey during the 90's, instead of just cherrypicking stats

also:

Alex Mogilny > Gordie Howe

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09-07-2010, 01:36 AM
  #67
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I watched plenty of nhl during the 90's, its just that this forum carries more weight on the reputation of the player rather than what they actually did. Yzerman was not the better player from 91-2003 and I could care less if you disagree. There was never a single season from 1991-2003 where Yzerman was substantially better, if there was, please name it because you can't. I also find it laughable because the above article mentions devellano and bowman and how they talk about how Yzerman was only meant to put up stats in order to sell tickets and how he was accused for having a weak defensive game. So he was the better player, despite putting up lesser stats, oh yeah that makes a heck of a lot of sense.

A healthy cam neely would have been awesome if he was able to last because he brought more to his game than Yzerman. Yzerman was just another scorer, he never stood out. 25 years from now people will always look for another Cam Neely, he made a much bigger impact in 1990 and 1991. Players like Yzerman, who have no physical aspect to thier game and only develop a two way game under proper coaching, they are replaceable. I just find it amusing how people here like to exaggerate the gap between yzerman and other players, he's no jagr, never has been, never will be.


Last edited by ushvinder: 09-07-2010 at 01:48 AM.
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09-07-2010, 01:52 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I watched plenty of nhl during the 90's, its just that this forum carries more weight on the reputation of the player rather than what they actually did. Yzerman was not the better player from 91-2003 and I could care less if you disagree. There was never a single season from 1991-2003 where Yzerman was substantially better, if there was, please name it because you can't.
Just to pick an easy one -- 2000.

Quote:
A healthy cam neely would have been awesome if he was able to last because he brought more to his game than Yzerman. Yzerman was just another scorer, he never stood out. 25 years from now people will always look for another Cam Neely, he made a much bigger impact in 1990 and 1991.
More so than anyone since then - Yzerman was talked about in the same breath as Gretzky and Lemieux.... he certainly stood out. Injuries definitely derailed him, but he was something special.

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09-07-2010, 01:55 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Just to pick an easy one -- 2000.


More so than anyone since then - Yzerman was talked about in the same breath as Gretzky and Lemieux.... he certainly stood out. Injuries certainly derailed him, but he was something special.
Yeah were oates put up 8 fewer points and was a selke finalist himself, with a much crappier team to boot. Good one, the gap between them was much bigger in 91 and from 93-95, and 2001-2003. I'm not even trying to bring this back into Oates because i got a warning, but these other guys want to quote it and bring it back. At least he was able to develop a two way game without the help of Scotty Bowman, haha too bad you cant say that about your boy.

Yzerman was never treated the way Messier or Jagr were and thats why they have a better hart record.

Cam Neely's point per game in 1991 was pretty close to Yzerman's anyways, i'm sure the stud factor would have went into his favour. Not to mention that he actually performed well in the playoffs those days, unlike Yzerman the playoff choke artist.

It would have made no sense at all for Boston to trade Yzerman for Neely. They probably would have done worse if that happened. The logical move would have been to give up janney and other players for an elite playmaker. It's just unfortunate that Neely and Oates didn't last very long.


Last edited by ushvinder: 09-07-2010 at 02:12 AM.
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09-07-2010, 10:28 AM
  #70
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Cam Neely's point per game in 1991 was pretty close to Yzerman's anyways, i'm sure the stud factor would have went into his favour. Not to mention that he actually performed well in the playoffs those days, unlike Yzerman the playoff choke artist.
Playoff choke artist?

Since your so fond of stats for your arguments, here are their career playoff PPG as of 1991

Yzerman's - 1.21 (47pts in 39 games)
Neely - .98 (82 pts in 84 games)

Yzerman was certainly not the reason Detroit didn't do well in the playoffs in that era.

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09-07-2010, 10:48 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Playoff choke artist?

Since your so fond of stats for your arguments, here are their career playoff PPG as of 1991

Yzerman's - 1.21 (47pts in 39 games)
Neely - .98 (82 pts in 84 games)

Yzerman was certainly not the reason Detroit didn't do well in the playoffs in that era.
Haha, I love when people, especially ones that weren't around at the time, like to say how Stevie was a choker.
Considering how bad most of those Wings teams were back then with even worse goaltending and considering the only reason those teams even made the playoffs in the first place was because of Stevie.
Just funny to me.

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09-07-2010, 10:59 AM
  #72
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A healthy cam neely would have been awesome if he was able to last because he brought more to his game than Yzerman.
The problem is the things that made Cam awesome were also the reason that there would never be a healthy Cam.

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09-07-2010, 04:01 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Playoff choke artist?

Since your so fond of stats for your arguments, here are their career playoff PPG as of 1991

Yzerman's - 1.21 (47pts in 39 games)
Neely - .98 (82 pts in 84 games)

Yzerman was certainly not the reason Detroit didn't do well in the playoffs in that era.
Oh wow, playoff ppg, yeah thats so meaningfull. Neely was the one that had the memorable playoff runs at the time, not yzerman. The media was the one who was calling him the playoof no show at the time, dont pretend that he was never knocked by others for detriot's diappointments before bowman arrived, i love it, revionism at its best on this forum.

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09-07-2010, 04:30 PM
  #74
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Oh wow, playoff ppg, yeah thats so meaningfull. Neely was the one that had the memorable playoff runs at the time, not yzerman. The media was the one who was calling him the playoof no show at the time, dont pretend that he was never knocked by others for detriot's diappointments before bowman arrived, i love it, revionism at its best on this forum.
Obviously you don't appreciate irony, so I'll leave it at that regarding the PPG analysis.

But on the other hand you're the one guilty of revisionism. He's was mainly criticized for his playoff play after 1991, (ie the time between when Detroit started becoming a contender and when they finally won a cup). That's when the trade rumors with the Habs and Sens started popping up.

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09-07-2010, 05:06 PM
  #75
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Obviously you don't appreciate irony, so I'll leave it at that regarding the PPG analysis.

But on the other hand you're the one guilty of revisionism. He's was mainly criticized for his playoff play after 1991, (ie the time between when Detroit started becoming a contender and when they finally won a cup). That's when the trade rumors with the Habs and Sens started popping up.
all your ppg analysis shows is that yzerman was capable of putting up alot of points when he got eliminated in the first round. Neely is the one that had 3 deep playoff runs, I think that is considered more valuable. Technically, Jagr's playoff ppg blows Yzerman's, I dont see anyone call him one of the best ever in the playoffs.

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