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Old
10-19-2010, 07:41 PM
  #651
DeeMeck
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Good points.

But when was the last time the Kings picked up someone else's cast off, and he came here and scored 30 goals?

The Kings haven't been winning anything for along time, so they would have had reason to take this type of shot on someone else's "used goods."

The NYI may have given MM different opportunities that helped him get to 30 goals, but why didn't DL & TM give those same opportunities to MM? The Kings have had PLENTY of holes over the last many years, and now when one of DL's castoffs goes elsewhere and scores 30...?? sorry, but that **** ****** me off.(!!!)

Someone in the organ-EYE-za-tion needed to see what MM was capable of doing. Where's this great "player development" I keep reading about? Geez, if MM was here last season and scored 30 - I would have had a much more relaxing summer ignoring Kovalchuk!
Kyle Quincey. I think he was top 5 in the entire league in power play assists, including forwards.

I am sure Cammy had opportunities to sign extensions with this team. The bottom line is that he wanted to play in eastern Canada. Moulson has been put into a good situation, and Purcell has a couple points to start the year, so what.

Aaron Voros was the leading goal scorer 2 years ago after a dozen games.

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10-19-2010, 07:43 PM
  #652
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Hearing Calgary and the Kings have just made a trade
interesting

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10-19-2010, 07:49 PM
  #653
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LOL obviously.. MB:

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Sorry - it was Anaheim/Calgary not Kings -

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10-19-2010, 07:49 PM
  #654
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interesting
Wondering what Calgary could possibly have that Dean would really want. Before the Kings landed Mitchell, I would have said Regehr.

EDIT: Yeah, I thought so.

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10-19-2010, 07:51 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Good points.

But when was the last time the Kings picked up someone else's cast off, and he came here and scored 30 goals?

The Kings haven't been winning anything for along time, so they would have had reason to take this type of shot on someone else's "used goods."

The NYI may have given MM different opportunities that helped him get to 30 goals, but why didn't DL & TM give those same opportunities to MM? The Kings have had PLENTY of holes over the last many years, and now when one of DL's castoffs goes elsewhere and scores 30...?? sorry, but that **** ****** me off.(!!!)

Someone in the organ-EYE-za-tion needed to see what MM was capable of doing. Where's this great "player development" I keep reading about? Geez, if MM was here last season and scored 30 - I would have had a much more relaxing summer ignoring Kovalchuk!
Glen Murray and Bryan Smolinski in the past were considered castoffs, with Murray being dubbed "hands of stone" or "ABM" for Anyone But Murray. Isles fans called Smolinski lazy. They seemed to have turned their careers around with the Kings.

Murray would later be dealt with Stumpel to bring in a #1 center in Jason Allison. Smolinski turned to Tim Gleason in a deadline trade which eventually landed Jack Johnson. Yanic Perreault and Eric Lacroix were other spare parts that Toronto got rid off that the Kings turned into NHL players.

As a poster mentioned already, a more recent example of this is Kyle Quincey. Matt Greene was an afterthought in the Visnovsky trade and he's become one of the best shutdown defensemen since Mattias Norstrom. Other examples include players like Tom Kostopoulos, you can even say Jake Muzzin as he was originally drafted by the Penguins and they let him walk. Funny thing, the Penguins also originally drafted Matt Moulson and let him walk as well.

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10-19-2010, 09:59 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Kyle Quincey. I think he was top 5 in the entire league in power play assists, including forwards.

I am sure Cammy had opportunities to sign extensions with this team. The bottom line is that he wanted to play in eastern Canada. Moulson has been put into a good situation, and Purcell has a couple points to start the year, so what.

Aaron Voros was the leading goal scorer 2 years ago after a dozen games.
I think Cammy liked the spotlight. You don't get that in LA with their 1 beat reporter. When Cammy goes to dinner and the movies as a King he probably rarely got bothered and most people had no idea who he was. I saw Chris Pronger about a year after he won the Cup with Anaheim walking around the Irvine Spectrum and nobody knew who he was. Now Cammy is a big star, he has the spotlight, he has the fans hounding him for autographs and he's playing for probably the biggest market in hockey. I don't think you can discount the change of scenery in hockey, some guys want to be hounded, others just want to play hockey and be left alone. If you have a bad game in Montreal the fans will let you know in your personal life and the 50 reporters after the game will ask you repeatedly. Will a guy like Frolov flourish in NY? Will Poni flourish away from Toronto?

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10-19-2010, 10:51 PM
  #657
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But when was the last time the Kings picked up someone else's cast off, and he came here and scored 30 goals?
... Believe it or not, the Kings had general managers before Dean Lombardi. And, for my money, they were better. Dave Taylor and Sam McMaster had FAR less to work with when they took over, and more importantly - they weren't given carte blanche to get their faces kicked in on the ice for three years, like Lombardi was. There was a mandate to be as competitive as possible.

McMaster turned an over-the-hill pair like Marty McSorley and Jari Kurri into two nondescript young players, one of whom (Mattias Norstrom) became a future captain and the other (Ian Laperriere) became an alternate captain. Both players were the epitome of hard-working, unselfish players. McMaster turned a decrepit Charlie Huddy and Alex Zhitnik into Philippe Boucher, who was on the way up and would have had a terrific career with the Kings, had ownership been willing to spend a few bucks. Zhitnik was young when he was dealt, for sure, but he never again had two seasons like those he had with the Kings in 1993 and 1994. McMaster turned a defenseman on the way down, Doug Houda, into one that was on the way up, Sean O'Donnell.

Taylor turned Kevin Stevens, who was pure crap for the Kings, into the return of Luc Robitaille. He turned Olli Jokinen into Zigmund Palffy and Brian Smolinski. He turned a decrepit Ed Olczyk into Glen Murray. He turned a bag of magic beans into Felix Potvin.

All of these deals are as good or better than any that Lombardi has made to date. And note that neither McMaster nor Taylor had anyone in the system like a Kopitar, or a Brown, or a Cammalleri, or a Frolov. It's funny that anyone who's been a fan for more than a year or so would wonder when the Kings turned castoffs into productive players because McMaster and Taylor did that for almost a full decade. In less than six years, the Kings went from dead in the water with an owner going to jail - to a team that was very solid and on the way up. Unfortunately, sudden career-ending injuries and ownership's unwillingness to pay competitive salaries ultimately destroyed that team, but that's not the fault of the two GMs who built it in the first place.

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Old
10-19-2010, 10:56 PM
  #658
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The disaster did well on the Matty Ian thing but he showed his true colors on the Huddy/Zhitnik deal, that was one of the worst deals in franchise history.

Aside from that I pretty much agree with your point.

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10-19-2010, 11:04 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Believe it or not, the Kings had general managers before Dean Lombardi. And, for my money, they were better. Dave Taylor and Sam McMaster had FAR less to work with when they took over, and more importantly - they weren't given carte blanche to get their faces kicked in on the ice for three years, like Lombardi was. There was a mandate to be as competitive as possible.

McMaster turned an over-the-hill pair like Marty McSorley and Jari Kurri into two nondescript young players, one of whom (Mattias Norstrom) became a future captain and the other (Ian Laperriere) became an alternate captain. Both players were the epitome of hard-working, unselfish players. McMaster turned a decrepit Charlie Huddy and Alex Zhitnik into Philippe Boucher, who was on the way up and would have had a terrific career with the Kings, had ownership been willing to spend a few bucks. Zhitnik was young when he was dealt, for sure, but he never again had two seasons like those he had with the Kings in 1993 and 1994. McMaster turned a defenseman on the way down, Doug Houda, into one that was on the way up, Sean O'Donnell.

Taylor turned Kevin Stevens, who was pure crap for the Kings, into the return of Luc Robitaille. He turned Olli Jokinen into Zigmund Palffy and Brian Smolinski. He turned a decrepit Ed Olczyk into Glen Murray. He turned a bag of magic beans into Felix Potvin.

All of these deals are as good or better than any that Lombardi has made to date. And note that neither McMaster nor Taylor had anyone in the system like a Kopitar, or a Brown, or a Cammalleri, or a Frolov. It's funny that anyone who's been a fan for more than a year or so would wonder when the Kings turned castoffs into productive players because McMaster and Taylor did that for almost a full decade. In less than six years, the Kings went from dead in the water with an owner going to jail - to a team that was very solid and on the way up. Unfortunately, sudden career-ending injuries and ownership's unwillingness to pay competitive salaries ultimately destroyed that team, but that's not the fault of the two GMs who built it in the first place.
In all fairness to AEG they were waiting for a salary cap to be in place and then they were going to sign the big free agents. Big free agents like Rob Blake, Joe Thornton's cousin and Pavol Bure's brother. They had a long term plan and they saw it through!

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10-19-2010, 11:08 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
The disaster did well on the Matty Ian thing but he showed his true colors on the Huddy/Zhitnik deal, that was one of the worst deals in franchise history.

Aside from that I pretty much agree with your point.
I thought Fuhr was going to be the savior in net for the Kings. Took my dad to a game at the Forum against Winnipeg and watched Zhamnov and Selanne dismantle him. Little did I know I was in for years and years of misses and dissapointments.

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10-19-2010, 11:18 PM
  #661
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I thought Fuhr was going to be the savior in net for the Kings. Took my dad to a game at the Forum against Winnipeg and watched Zhamnov and Selanne dismantle him. Little did I know I was in for years and years of misses and dissapointments.
Ah yes, I remember that game vividly. The 7-7 tie, Zhamnov scoring 5 goals against the Kings.

Here's the boxscore:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...504010LAK.html

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Old
10-19-2010, 11:19 PM
  #662
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What made it worse is that while struggling for us he gets help with his addiction, gets dealt and becomes Grant Friggin Fuhr for Stl.

Argh

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10-19-2010, 11:21 PM
  #663
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In all fairness to AEG they were waiting for a salary cap to be in place and then they were going to sign the big free agents. Big free agents like Rob Blake, Joe Thornton's cousin and Pavol Bure's brother. They had a long term plan and they saw it through!
... The first "promise" was that building the new arena would enable the Kings to compete with the high-payroll franchises like the Detroits, the Dallases, the Colorados. Of course, then the talk was all about "cost certainty" and the Kings' owners led the charge to the league locking out the players for a full season. I still believe that when push comes to shove in the future, when and if the Kings are on the threshold of becoming elite, ownership will let them down again - so it's hard for me to really get enthused about what's being built here in L.A.

As for the Huddy/Zhitnik for Boucher/Fuhr deal, hell Zhitnik was my favorite King player in 1993 and 1994, so I was pretty pissed off when the trade was made. But Fuhr was coming off of an injury and never got the chance to play his way back into shape with the Kings. He had 2-3 years of #1 caliber play left in him, but as I recall he only got about 8 or 9 games in L.A., so expecting anything lasting out of him in that short of time was ridiculous. And, had the Kings held onto Boucher, they would have reaped some more fine seasons from him, as he was just coming into his own. Potentially, McMaster made a good solid trade - but the Kings' actions after the deal basically ruined it.

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... Looks like Hrudey gave up 5 of the 7 goals in that game.

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10-19-2010, 11:22 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
What made it worse is that while struggling for us he gets help with his addiction, gets dealt and becomes Grant Friggin Fuhr for Stl.

Argh
The story went that Keenan threatened to kick Fuhr off the team, probably something no member on the Kings' coaching or front office staff had the galls to do. Fuhr got himself a personal trainer (I believe it was TR Goodman), and he whipped himself into shape and set a record for games played in a season. Goes to show you that motivation could drive a veteran player to succeed, a foreign concept to the old farts who were withering away in LA.

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10-19-2010, 11:23 PM
  #665
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The disaster did well on the Matty Ian thing but he showed his true colors on the Huddy/Zhitnik deal, that was one of the worst deals in franchise history.

Aside from that I pretty much agree with your point.
Didn't Sam also trade Tocchet for Stevens?

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10-19-2010, 11:26 PM
  #666
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Didn't Sam also trade Tocchet for Stevens?
He certainly did. And Stevens was yet another old washed up player recovering from injuries...

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10-19-2010, 11:27 PM
  #667
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He certainly did. And Stevens was yet another old washed up player recovering from injuries...
... At the time of the trade, so was Tocchet. He had back issues.

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10-19-2010, 11:34 PM
  #668
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... At the time of the trade, so was Tocchet. He had back issues.
Although Tocchet did suffer from injuries, he was still a productive player at that time. At the time of the trade, Tocchet had amassed 36 points in 44 games. Compare that to Stevens, who had 23 points and missed more games than Tocchet to injuries. Stevens was also a lazy bum, but I guess the Kings couldn't afford a pro scout who could tip them off on that information.

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10-19-2010, 11:38 PM
  #669
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Although Tocchet did suffer from injuries, he was still a productive player at that time. At the time of the trade, Tocchet had amassed 36 points in 44 games. Compare that to Stevens, who had 23 points and missed more games than Tocchet to injuries. Stevens was also a lazy bum, but I guess the Kings couldn't afford a pro scout who could tip them off on that information.
... Yeah, totally agree about Stevens for sure. I can't believe how much the Rangers wanted to rid themselves of Robitaille; enough for them to take a total loser like Stevens in exchange for Luc.

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10-19-2010, 11:51 PM
  #670
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... Yeah, totally agree about Stevens for sure. I can't believe how much the Rangers wanted to rid themselves of Robitaille; enough for them to take a total loser like Stevens in exchange for Luc.
The Rangers were very close to trading Luc Robitaille to LA well before the Kevin Stevens trade. Apparently, his name had come up in trade talks involving Gretzky going to NY, but the Rangers were reluctant to part with Mattias Norstrom at that time, who was the main player McMaster had targeted.

I'm not sure what made Neil Smith change his mind later, but he finally relented at the trade deadline, sending Norstrom, a disgruntled Ray Ferraro, a young Ian Laperriere and Nathan LaFayette (who was actually a pretty decent defensive minded center), for two soon to be UFAs in Jari Kurri and Marty McSorley, along with Shane Churla (who had requested a trade from the Kings).

I guess it was trades like those that led to the demise of Neil Smith. It worked at one point when they dealt the likes of Doug Weight and Tony Amonte to capture a Cup in 1994, but it worked against them in 1996.

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10-20-2010, 01:28 AM
  #671
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Ah yes, I remember that game vividly. The 7-7 tie, Zhamnov scoring 5 goals against the Kings.

Here's the boxscore:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...504010LAK.html
Hrudey got lit up and they brought in Fuhr. I was sure this was the beginning of a new era in great goaltending in LA.

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10-20-2010, 01:33 AM
  #672
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Although Tocchet did suffer from injuries, he was still a productive player at that time. At the time of the trade, Tocchet had amassed 36 points in 44 games. Compare that to Stevens, who had 23 points and missed more games than Tocchet to injuries. Stevens was also a lazy bum, but I guess the Kings couldn't afford a pro scout who could tip them off on that information.
If I see a guy get knocked out mid-air and land face first on the ice I'm sending a doctor to check on his overall condition and probably not trading for him-because he landed face first on the ice! Is there any other NHL team that still trades or signs guys coming off major injuries like the LA Kings? It would be nice to say this happened in the past but it's still happening with the current GM.

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10-20-2010, 01:52 AM
  #673
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You can't just say that Lombardi was allowed to suck for 3 years without giving him credit for convincing the ownership that it needed to happen. Lombardi was also told to stay competitive while rebuilding his first year here and instead signed bridge guys who would please ownership at the time of the signings but also suck enough to get him his top 5 picks. I can't imagine it was an easy sell to AEG who has a history of demanding their GMs stay competitive even at the expense of youth.

Its the GMs job to convince their owner to give them free reign and to spend money where its needed. You have to either credit Lombardi for making AEG see the light, or credit AEG for divining it themselves.

The only other option is to disagree with the rebuild.

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10-20-2010, 02:26 AM
  #674
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You can't just say that Lombardi was allowed to suck for 3 years without giving him credit for convincing the ownership that it needed to happen. Lombardi was also told to stay competitive while rebuilding his first year here and instead signed bridge guys who would please ownership at the time of the signings but also suck enough to get him his top 5 picks. I can't imagine it was an easy sell to AEG who has a history of demanding their GMs stay competitive even at the expense of youth.

Its the GMs job to convince their owner to give them free reign and to spend money where its needed. You have to either credit Lombardi for making AEG see the light, or credit AEG for divining it themselves.

The only other option is to disagree with the rebuild.
Uh oh, someone just made some sense. People should just face the fact that no matter where the fault lies the Kings didn't have much of a rudder until Lombardi came on the scene.

Great post JDM and right on the mark.

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10-20-2010, 03:02 AM
  #675
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McMaster turned a decrepit Charlie Huddy and Alex Zhitnik into Philippe Boucher, who was on the way up and would have had a terrific career with the Kings, had ownership been willing to spend a few bucks.
OK... so AEG gets all the blame for not spending money on Boucher but Taylor gets no blame for not convincing ownership they should? THe way I see it, either Taylor failed at that, or he failed to even make the pitch because he didn't think Boucher was worth the money or roster spot himself.

You then go on to say in another post...

Quote:
I still believe that when push comes to shove in the future, when and if the Kings are on the threshold of becoming elite, ownership will let them down again - so it's hard for me to really get enthused about what's being built here in L.A.
Again, blaming ownership for not spending money. So Lombardi convincing AEG to shell out nearly 70 million bucks on Kopitar doesn't count? In the days of the GM you prefer, Taylor couldn't get ownership to spend for Boucher, who ended up settling for $9.3 mill in Dallas. But now, after Lombardi has gotten AEG spend almost 70 million on Kopitar, almost 15 on Matt Greene, 16 million on Handzus you are still worried ownership will let them down because under Taylor they wouldn't fork over under 10 million for Boucher? Lets not even mention that Taylor lost Blake because he couldn't convince AEG to spend Chris Pronger money on the Kings' best player. Once again, its the GMs job to sell a contract to his owner and Taylor could never convince AEG to spend money where needed, OR Taylor didn't think the money needed to spent to retain those players. Those are your only two real options there, pick one.

You just can't logically credit Taylor for shrewd moves, but blame ownership for ****ing them up by being cheap and at the same time ignore that AEG has spent a boatload of money almost anywhere Lombardi has asked. Either Lombardi is doing something right that Taylor could not or AEG has turned a corner in their willingness to spend on this franchise of their own volition. Either one would negate your disinterest in this rebuild because you think AEG won't spend the money when the evidence shows that they have already started doing just that.

I will settle for one alternative option which would require piston's help, he being the financial guru.

That alternative is that AEG is only spending money now because they finally got L.A. Live built. In that case, you could lift some blame from Taylor. But you would still have to give some credit to AEG, even if their heart was in the wrong place the result is still that they will pay for the talent their GM tells them they need to pay for.

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