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Old
09-08-2010, 08:26 AM
  #51
AugustBurnsRed*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
Staal would have been a minus on the crap teams Johnson played on. +/- is a misleading stat at best and should not be used to judge a player. Neither team would do this. LA needs JJ more than Staal and vice versa.
Johnson was a -15 and the Kings finished 6th in the west. Yeah what a crappy team. Plus-minus can be misleading but this isn't an example IMO. If you're a defenseman who's good at defense you're not going to put up that kind of awful +/-. So there is no way in hell he is worth as much as Staal.

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09-08-2010, 09:16 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyBOZAK View Post
Which line does Staal play on 3rd ?
Here we go. This thread has been waiting for guys like you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post
Johnson was a -15 and the Kings finished 6th in the west. Yeah what a crappy team. Plus-minus can be misleading but this isn't an example IMO. If you're a defenseman who's good at defense you're not going to put up that kind of awful +/-. So there is no way in hell he is worth as much as Staal.
+/- is overblown, but so many things factor into it. I wouldn't say Johnson is as bad as his +/- has suggested in his career. It's not lack of hockey IQ, or anything major like that. It's just that he's full of piss and vinegar and that sometimes gets him out of position. He will grow out of it as he matures as a player.

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Old
09-10-2010, 01:39 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by YZ77 View Post
Burke creams himself...the Laughs say yes.

Shero says "F.U." la Cee Lo Brown.

Lombardi says, "Let me take a month to think about it".
The Lombardi bit is funny, it is so true though.

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Old
09-10-2010, 01:45 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by girouxrichards View Post
And Pittsburgh needs more D why?
My thoughts exactly!

We have zero need for another defensemen. Especially one we won't be able to afford once he needs his legit deal.

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Old
09-10-2010, 01:53 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post
Johnson was a -15 and the Kings finished 6th in the west. Yeah what a crappy team. Plus-minus can be misleading but this isn't an example IMO. If you're a defenseman who's good at defense you're not going to put up that kind of awful +/-. So there is no way in hell he is worth as much as Staal.
He was also partnered with Randy Jones, probably the worst dman of all western playoff teams, so that hurts his +/-.

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Old
09-10-2010, 02:16 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZ77 View Post
Shero says "F.U." la Cee Lo Brown.
Cee Lo Brown...what happens when singer Cee-le Green and wrestler D-lo Brown impregnate each other.

Either that or you forgot the " 's " after Cee Lo.

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Old
09-10-2010, 02:19 PM
  #57
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For what it's worth, to the people who are ragging on Johnson's +/- rating: Johnson was usually on a 2-1, blocked the pass and Quick let in his softie-per-game on a wide angle shot from the puck carrier. ( You know, that magic area around the outside-top of the circles? )

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Old
09-10-2010, 05:59 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
Staal would have been a minus on the crap teams Johnson played on..
Huh?

Being a Kings fan, I love JJ on the team and I think he's only getting better.

Having said that, the Kings have been pretty damn good defensively the last 2 years. Hasn't JJ lead them in the "-" part of those years?

Personally, I don't think its because he can't play but rather him trying to do too much.

Also, didn't Johnson come out a say that while he's friends with Sid, they don't talk/hang out all the time?

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Old
09-10-2010, 08:07 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyBOZAK View Post
Which line does Staal play on 3rd ?
yeah that kind of happens when you have Crosby AND Malkin playing on the same team. But hey, go ahead and ignore that obvious fact, keep Schenn, and look forward to getting another early draft pick to build around Schenn....oh wait, I forgot...

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Old
09-10-2010, 08:11 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post
Johnson was a -15 and the Kings finished 6th in the west. Yeah what a crappy team. Plus-minus can be misleading but this isn't an example IMO. If you're a defenseman who's good at defense you're not going to put up that kind of awful +/-. So there is no way in hell he is worth as much as Staal.
All I can say to trump the JJ for Staal crap is that it has been offered, and turned down by Pitt rather easily. And then look at whoo JJ was eventually traded for? Not exactly a player worth the caliber of these three.
Is JJ a very good player with a high ceiling? Yup.
Is he as good or as accomplished as Staal? Nope.
Is Schenn as good as either? Nope
Does this trade proposal favor the leafs? Absolutely.

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Old
09-10-2010, 09:21 PM
  #61
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Or, has Staal reached his ceiling?
Likely
Has Schenn reached his?
Nope
Has JJ reached his?
Nope.

Is Jordan a solid #3 center and *might* even be a #2 guy on some teams?
Yes.
Is there a #3 center in the league that is worth a young #1-2 pmd?
No, not really.

Staal is good and even great at his position but in time and very short time at that JMFJ will be worth allot more to a teams success and allot harder to obtain than a solid 3rd line center. Same might end up being true of Schenn.

You can keep Staal, until he becomes a ufa and bails.

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Old
09-10-2010, 09:31 PM
  #62
SFKingshomer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Or, has Staal reached his ceiling?
Likely
Has Schenn reached his?
Nope
Has JJ reached his?
Nope.

Is Jordan a solid #3 center and *might* even be a #2 guy on some teams?
Yes.
Is there a #3 center in the league that is worth a young #1-2 pmd?
No, not really.

Staal is good and even great at his position but in time and very short time at that JMFJ will be worth allot more to a teams success and allot harder to obtain than a solid 3rd line center. Same might end up being true of Schenn.

You can keep Staal, until he becomes a ufa and bails.
No doubt.

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Old
09-10-2010, 10:09 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyBOZAK View Post
Which line does Staal play on 3rd ?
God I hate when people like you say this. It's like saying "Which line does Malkin play on 2nd?"

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Old
09-10-2010, 10:14 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Or, has Staal reached his ceiling?
Likely
Has Schenn reached his?
Nope
Has JJ reached his?
Nope.

Is Jordan a solid #3 center and *might* even be a #2 guy on some teams?
Yes.
Is there a #3 center in the league that is worth a young #1-2 pmd?
No, not really.

Staal is good and even great at his position but in time and very short time at that JMFJ will be worth allot more to a teams success and allot harder to obtain than a solid 3rd line center. Same might end up being true of Schenn.

You can keep Staal, until he becomes a ufa and bails.
So a 22 year old Staal has reached his ceiling but a 23 year old JJ hasn't? Good to know.

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Old
09-10-2010, 10:14 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Or, has Staal reached his ceiling?
Likely
Has Schenn reached his?
Nope
Has JJ reached his?
Nope.

Is Jordan a solid #3 center and *might* even be a #2 guy on some teams?
Yes.
Is there a #3 center in the league that is worth a young #1-2 pmd?
No, not really.

Staal is good and even great at his position but in time and very short time at that JMFJ will be worth allot more to a teams success and allot harder to obtain than a solid 3rd line center. Same might end up being true of Schenn.

You can keep Staal, until he becomes a ufa and bails.
Staal's 22 years old and he's reached his ceiling? Okay..

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Old
09-10-2010, 10:18 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Or, has Staal reached his ceiling?
Likely
Has Schenn reached his?
Nope
Has JJ reached his?
Nope.


Is Jordan a solid #3 center and *might* even be a #2 guy on some teams?
Yes.

Is there a #3 center in the league that is worth a young #1-2 pmd?
No, not really.

Staal is good and even great at his position but in time and very short time at that JMFJ will be worth allot more to a teams success and allot harder to obtain than a solid 3rd line center. Same might end up being true of Schenn.

You can keep Staal, until he becomes a ufa and bails.
Yeah, Staal has definitively reached his ceiling and JJ hasn't, even though JJ is a year and a half older, and JS is merely a "solid" 3rd line center, even though he scored more than half the league's 2nd line centers and was better defensively than all of them but Kesler.


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Old
09-10-2010, 10:29 PM
  #67
Zen Arcade
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There's a pretty good way to gauge how outlandish your views are.

If SFkingshomer agrees with you, retrace your steps a little and see when you went off the deep end.

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Old
09-11-2010, 12:21 AM
  #68
etherialone
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So, lets see when Jordan steps into a 1st or 2nd line role and takes over, until then I can't see him developing into much more while he plays in Pitts, can you? He hasn't yet and I can't see him surpassing Malkin, can you? Just saying.

Oh, I also did say that he was "good and even great at his position" but why quibble when you can be outraged instead.

The comparison is valid when taken in context. JS will likely continue to develop into a good to great #2/3 center in the game. JMFJ will likely develop into a #1/2 d man in the league and also be good to great. Which one tends to have more value or, which one is harder to come by?

That is what my comparison was about and hey, if you see Jordan becoming a true #1 and a real top line guy then fantastic, you watch him more than I do and I would concede that my good to great statement about his talent could include him eclipsing my #2/3 line center opinion of him and see him becoming that, o.k.?

But if he does develop further into that true top 1st line center in the game, it won't be as a Pen, will it?

So to underline and further simplify my point, would you rather hang onto Jordan who is as a Pen at best a good to great 3rd line center or would you rather deal him for a young good to great top pairing d man?

That was and remains my point.

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Old
09-11-2010, 12:27 AM
  #69
etherialone
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Oh and it doesn't have to be JMFJ by the way, it could be other equal valued top end young d talent. Oh, not elite end talent, but top end for sure.

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Old
09-11-2010, 12:40 AM
  #70
Dylonus
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lol @ Staal hitting his ceiling.

This is the kind of garbage members claimed last year. Then he went on to finish 3rd in the Selke trophy at the age of 21.

Staal is a player who is stuck on the third line with average at best players, sees the tail end of the PP, and plays every single PK situation the penguins are in, yet he still puts up 20+ goals and around 50 points.

Can your third line center do that? Hell, there are teams who don't have a second liner do that.

Wait, as a matter of fact, did TORONTO'S first line center even do that!?

Doesn't sound like he's hit his ceiling to me!

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Old
09-11-2010, 12:57 AM
  #71
etherialone
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Did you actually read the entire post(s) where that was explained/said?

If ya did then you can see where it was said that he has reached his ceiling while playing with the Pens. And just thought that I would point out to you that you have just said the exact same thing, actually.

It isn't really garbage, is it?

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Old
09-11-2010, 01:40 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingjordan View Post
How does this make the Kings better? Jack johnson is a better player than Schenn.. Kings need an D-man that can move the puck aside from Doughty..

Rather Keep Johnson
Jack Johnson 2007-2010 -57
Luke Schenn 2008-2010 -10 ( last year +2 ) T.O was good last year....Right?
Ya jack is better then Luke....haha okay!

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Old
09-11-2010, 02:43 AM
  #73
stardog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
So, lets see when Jordan steps into a 1st or 2nd line role and takes over, until then I can't see him developing into much more while he plays in Pitts, can you? He hasn't yet and I can't see him surpassing Malkin, can you? Just saying.

Oh, I also did say that he was "good and even great at his position" but why quibble when you can be outraged instead.

The comparison is valid when taken in context. JS will likely continue to develop into a good to great #2/3 center in the game. JMFJ will likely develop into a #1/2 d man in the league and also be good to great. Which one tends to have more value or, which one is harder to come by?

That is what my comparison was about and hey, if you see Jordan becoming a true #1 and a real top line guy then fantastic, you watch him more than I do and I would concede that my good to great statement about his talent could include him eclipsing my #2/3 line center opinion of him and see him becoming that, o.k.?

But if he does develop further into that true top 1st line center in the game, it won't be as a Pen, will it?

So to underline and further simplify my point, would you rather hang onto Jordan who is as a Pen at best a good to great 3rd line center or would you rather deal him for a young good to great top pairing d man?

That was and remains my point.
The "quibble" was with your statement that JS has REACHED his potential (...at 22 years age mind you)while JJ has not, which you must realize was a ridiculous statement made out of homerism or purley an attempt to win a losing argument. JS is the better and more accomplished player and I see no reason why that wont continue. If it doesnt, so be it, but lets not make believe here to bolster an argument that has little legs.

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Old
09-11-2010, 02:47 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Did you actually read the entire post(s) where that was explained/said?

If ya did then you can see where it was said that he has reached his ceiling while playing with the Pens. And just thought that I would point out to you that you have just said the exact same thing, actually.

It isn't really garbage, is it?
Oh and tell me that he reached his potential with Pitt AFTER this year when he plays the year as the SECOND line center with Malkin as his right wing....but then Im guessing you'll come back with "Its all Malkin, etc...."

Point being your statement is completely indefensible bro

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Old
09-11-2010, 03:27 AM
  #75
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
So, lets see when Jordan steps into a 1st or 2nd line role and takes over, until then I can't see him developing into much more while he plays in Pitts, can you? He hasn't yet and I can't see him surpassing Malkin, can you? Just saying.

Oh, I also did say that he was "good and even great at his position" but why quibble when you can be outraged instead.

The comparison is valid when taken in context. JS will likely continue to develop into a good to great #2/3 center in the game. JMFJ will likely develop into a #1/2 d man in the league and also be good to great. Which one tends to have more value or, which one is harder to come by?

That is what my comparison was about and hey, if you see Jordan becoming a true #1 and a real top line guy then fantastic, you watch him more than I do and I would concede that my good to great statement about his talent could include him eclipsing my #2/3 line center opinion of him and see him becoming that, o.k.?

But if he does develop further into that true top 1st line center in the game, it won't be as a Pen, will it?

So to underline and further simplify my point, would you rather hang onto Jordan who is as a Pen at best a good to great 3rd line center or would you rather deal him for a young good to great top pairing d man?

That was and remains my point.
There is so much wrong in this post.

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