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Old
09-08-2010, 09:29 PM
  #76
Stradale
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So, we dont have team spirit ? no intensity either ?


And also, I'm really curious, if thoses tough guys are so important, WHY are they scratched/benched when it counts ?
Because we are not talking about the same toughness.

I didn't see Hartnell and Asham being benched. I didn't see Ladd and Bufy being scratched.. same for Neil, Kaleta, Eager, Rupp, Carcillo, Clarkson, Lucic etc.. For me, the toughness should come from these kind of players, not the goon that plays 3-4 min. a game.

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09-08-2010, 09:30 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
if thoses tough guys are NOT so important, WHY every teams have someone to do this job and play in a regular base all year long ?

It's not the same game in playoffs

That's BS......

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09-08-2010, 09:31 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Because we are not talking about the same toughness.

I didn't see Hartnell and Asham being benched. I didn't see Ladd and Bufy being scratched.. same for Neil, Kaleta, Eager, Rupp, Carcillo, Clarkson, Lucic etc.. For me, the toughness should come from these kind of players, not the goon that plays 3-4 min. a game.
Carcillo was scratched for a couple of games during the playoffs (including against us) by the way.

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09-08-2010, 09:34 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Because we are not talking about the same toughness.

I didn't see Hartnell and Asham being benched. I didn't see Ladd and Bufy being scratched.. same for Neil, Kaleta, Eager, Rupp, Carcillo, Clarkson, Lucic etc.. For me, the toughness should come from these kind of players, not the goon that plays 3-4 min. a game.
"Neil, Kaleta, Rupp, Clarkson, Lucic etc.." ....all who were gone by the second round of the playoffs....don't really recall any of them making much of a differnce.


Carcillo was benched in the playoffs more than once.... so was Eager. Kaleta? Give me a break! O'Byrne is the heavyweight king if you consider him a TOUGH GUY.

Funny that two of those guys who were apparently so important aren't even with the same team any more - Asham and Eager.

None of those guys with the exception of Lucic and perhaps Neil is clearly tougher than Moen, who plays a very regular role for us. Lappy will be counted on to play tougher this season - he has the size and strength - hopefully the boxing lessons he took this summer will give him the confidence to do that. Halpern will also drop the gloves. I don't see us lacking grit on our bottom two lines.


Last edited by Haberdashery: 09-08-2010 at 09:40 PM.
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Old
09-08-2010, 09:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Carcillo was scratched for a couple of games during the playoffs (including against us) by the way.
True..

But i think you get my point.

I think having guys to do the dirty work help the chemistry of a team too. Most of the time, these guys are respected/appreciated in the lockeroom. I don't see the problem of having a couple of those kind of guys in a bottom 6.

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09-08-2010, 09:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Haberdashery View Post
"Neil, Kaleta, Rupp, Clarkson, Lucic etc.." ....all who were gone by the second round of the playoffs....don't really recall any of them making much of a differnce.


Carcillo was benched in the playoffs more than once.... so was Eager. Kaleta? Give me a break! O'Byrne is the heavyweight king if you consider him a TOUGH GUY
Holy **** are you ****ing kidding me??? There's only two teams that meet each other in the Stanley Cup final, its normal that team gets eliminated.

Its like saying Crosby, OV sucks.. they were eliminated after the 2nd round? Damn...

Think before you talk.

I'm not saying these guys make you win the Cup.. but it helps to balance a team.

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09-08-2010, 09:42 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Haberdashery View Post
That's BS......
No it's not. Regular season and PO are 2 different things, that's why Brad May played 40 games for the RW last year, but no PO games.

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09-08-2010, 09:44 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by kent_carlson View Post
No it's not. Regular season and PO are 2 different things, that's why Brad May played 40 games for the RW last year, but no PO games.
not good enough for a single PO game... that's the kind of guy we should add to the roster ? ? ?

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09-08-2010, 09:53 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by kent_carlson View Post
Yeah, it is easy to say we don't need a useless goon ... but some players such as David Clarkson and Andrew Ladd are useful and tough.
That's what i'm saying!

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09-08-2010, 09:54 PM
  #85
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The only thing this list does is pointing out the fact that we probably are one if not the softest team in the entire NHL. Moen and O'byrne can fight yeah.. but who will finish their checks, intimidate, retaliate or just give us a physical shift after a goal? Tom pyatt, jeff halpern mathieu darche will work as hard as they can but hey.. what can they really do?

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09-08-2010, 09:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
That's what i'm saying!
I know, I was with you on this argument ... I probably made a franco mistake!

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09-08-2010, 09:57 PM
  #87
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There is absolutely no correlation of any kind between "toughness", defined as willingness to fight, and winning hockey games, and championships, in the NHL. Anyone who claims otherwise has never taken the trouble to understand how hockey games are won and lost. There is a relation between team-toughness in the sense of a readiness to take a hit, go into corners, go in front of the net ; there is none between fighting and winning. The subject should be closed, finally.

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Old
09-08-2010, 10:03 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
not good enough for a single PO game... that's the kind of guy we should add to the roster ? ? ?
Yes, I'm ok with a part-time enforcer; the regular season and PO are 2 different things, that was the purpose of my reply. In 1993, we had Odelein, Roberge and Ewen in the regular season, but we only used Odelein in the PO. We are very far from this.

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09-08-2010, 10:30 PM
  #89
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It had to be covered already but how come people don't see the difference between gooning and toughness. Nobody needs a sideshow like Laraque was giving us. We need guys who can play, could be on anybody's face and can take care of business if somebody is looking to start something.

Guys, you'll see when it will happen, guys like O'Byrne or Moen will answer the bell and unfortunately neither will change a thing about our team being respected or not. Yes, we surely will beat them if they take stupid penalties and all. Yet, we might feel the downside of seeing our guys being continually pounded when the opponent knows there won't be any retaliation.

Personnally, I would have had Ian Laperrière on my team any day of the week. People named Clarkson, Ladd, Asham and there are others. That's the idea I have of a bottom 6. Especially the 4th line who has that mission to somewhat change the tempo of the game by thunderous bodychecks. There's way more lightweights and middleweights than heavyweights now. And those lights and middle happen to know how to play hockey.

And I happen to like teams that hit hard and even if they happen to lose games, they still ended up giving a good show as far as energy, bodychecks and presence. I don't want a goon team. But I would prefer a more physical one. Not in Gauthier's priority.

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09-08-2010, 10:43 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It had to be covered already but how come people don't see the difference between gooning and toughness. Nobody needs a sideshow like Laraque was giving us. We need guys who can play, could be on anybody's face and can take care of business if somebody is looking to start something.

Guys, you'll see when it will happen, guys like O'Byrne or Moen will answer the bell and unfortunately neither will change a thing about our team being respected or not. Yes, we surely will beat them if they take stupid penalties and all. Yet, we might feel the downside of seeing our guys being continually pounded when the opponent knows there won't be any retaliation.

Personnally, I would have had Ian Laperrière on my team any day of the week. People named Clarkson, Ladd, Asham and there are others. That's the idea I have of a bottom 6. Especially the 4th line who has that mission to somewhat change the tempo of the game by thunderous bodychecks. There's way more lightweights and middleweights than heavyweights now. And those lights and middle happen to know how to play hockey.

And I happen to like teams that hit hard and even if they happen to lose games, they still ended up giving a good show as far as energy, bodychecks and presence. I don't want a goon team. But I would prefer a more physical one. Not in Gauthier's priority.
This post sums my thoughts perfectly.

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Old
09-08-2010, 11:31 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It had to be covered already but how come people don't see the difference between gooning and toughness. Nobody needs a sideshow like Laraque was giving us. We need guys who can play, could be on anybody's face and can take care of business if somebody is looking to start something.

Guys, you'll see when it will happen, guys like O'Byrne or Moen will answer the bell and unfortunately neither will change a thing about our team being respected or not. Yes, we surely will beat them if they take stupid penalties and all. Yet, we might feel the downside of seeing our guys being continually pounded when the opponent knows there won't be any retaliation.

Personnally, I would have had Ian Laperrière on my team any day of the week. People named Clarkson, Ladd, Asham and there are others. That's the idea I have of a bottom 6. Especially the 4th line who has that mission to somewhat change the tempo of the game by thunderous bodychecks. There's way more lightweights and middleweights than heavyweights now. And those lights and middle happen to know how to play hockey.

And I happen to like teams that hit hard and even if they happen to lose games, they still ended up giving a good show as far as energy, bodychecks and presence. I don't want a goon team. But I would prefer a more physical one. Not in Gauthier's priority.
considering EVERYONE saying we arent tough enough talks about fighting...


and you're one of the few who can see difference between goonery and toughness... right ?

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09-08-2010, 11:33 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by kent_carlson View Post
Yes, I'm ok with a part-time enforcer; the regular season and PO are 2 different things, that was the purpose of my reply. In 1993, we had Odelein, Roberge and Ewen in the regular season, but we only used Odelein in the PO. We are very far from this.

You're OK to have two talented enough players in the stands in favor of guys who'll play about 3 min a game... and not at all in the playoffs...

well...

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Old
09-08-2010, 11:44 PM
  #93
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For Toronto you can add Komisarek & Armstrong, and add Wisniewski for the Islanders.


To say Nashville is worse than Montreal in toughness ? Belak, Tootoo > O'Byrne & Moen anyday

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Old
09-09-2010, 12:35 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Dallas
HW : Barch
Ott, Sutherby, Fistric, Segal, Burish

Detroit

Edmonton
HW : Stortini, MacIntyre
Jacques, Fraser, Strudwick
I lol'd

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Old
09-09-2010, 06:18 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Orr is a fan favourite, create rivalry and most interesting games, he brings intensity, scare the other teams and score a couple of goals per year. A lot more effective than a guy like Tom Pyatt...
Are you serious?

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09-09-2010, 06:38 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by habber24 View Post
Are you serious?
After your last post i wouldn't ask that to anybody. Orr covers a need on their team, Pyatt's role (defensive awarness, speed, pk) can be covered by a bunch of players on the team, that's what he ment, seemed pretty logical to me...

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Old
09-09-2010, 06:59 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You're OK to have two talented enough players in the stands in favor of guys who'll play about 3 min a game... and not at all in the playoffs...

well...
yep, just like every team in this league except The Habs and maybe Carolina ...

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Old
09-09-2010, 07:21 AM
  #98
Aurel Joliat
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Originally Posted by Haberdashery View Post
You do know that Aurel Joliat played at about 130 pounds eh? May have been 5-5.

I just find it ironic that you are obsessed with size and toughness, yet dedicate both your name and avatar to perhaps the smalled NHLer ever.

Carry on.
What's your point ? Are you an historian ?
Aurel Joliat was one of the meanest guy in the NHL in the 20's/30's in spite of his small size. He never refused a fight Skilled like our players, but tough like... other teams players I guess

I'm agree with kent_carlson. If it's bad, why 27 or 28 teams add this dimension to their roster ?

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Old
09-09-2010, 07:35 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
After your last post i wouldn't ask that to anybody. Orr covers a need on their team, Pyatt's role (defensive awarness, speed, pk) can be covered by a bunch of players on the team, that's what he ment, seemed pretty logical to me...
Now I'll tell you what I ment! We don't need a guy like Orr or Stortini (guys of that nature). We had the top HW in the league and what did it get us, were still paying him for what service! What we needed to do was trade for guys that were on the trading block like Ladd or Big Buff or sign Nolan at a fair price. Those are serviceable and tuff sob. To say that you'd prefer Orr's fighting above Pyatt's defensive awarness, speed and pk is pure insanity. I'm just saying we don't need goons, but we REALLY need bigger, grittier with more offensive upside like Downie, Hartnell, Simmonds, Clowe, Clarkson and Backes. Not Orr, McIntyre, Stortini, etc.

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Old
09-09-2010, 08:03 AM
  #100
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I agree that toughness is important for a team. Honestly though, I don't think we should just add one or two guys in order to make the team look tougher because that isn't what Martin and Gauthier are going for. Our team, like it or not, is a defensive, trap and counter team that uses its speed to create odd man rushes. We are not a team like Philly which bangs anything that moves. I would love for us to have a roster of players such as Backes, Hartnell, Neal, Ott, etc. but we are not in that mold and don't forget, our coach seems to dislike toughness which is why Lapierre was given a tinier role and O'byrne played less often than Bergeron. No need to have a heavyweight if you have players like Ladd, Laperriere and Ott in your bottom six than can be just as physical and be more effective elsewhere.

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