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Old
09-09-2010, 10:40 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by sharkohol View Post
Want to qualify this with something other than conjecture?

Ridiculous.
Murray would naturally have a lot of ice time being paired with Boyle. Vlasic and Blake always meshed well together, making Murray the only real option to pair with Boyle. Huskins is..... well Huskins and Demers was a rook.

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09-09-2010, 10:41 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by sharkohol View Post
Want to qualify this with something other than conjecture?

Ridiculous.
Murray was a liability.

Regehr was not.

This is true. I don't have the Corsi Numbers, or anything like that, but Murray was pretty bad in the top-4.

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Old
09-09-2010, 10:41 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JPavs8Clutchy View Post
TOI does not show how much better a player is.

I'm sure that during Regehr's 21:38, he wasn't a liability. Murray was.
Comparing speculation against opinion isn't a very strong argument.

Fact is, more time on ice, greater the chance of being a contributor or a liability.

Their offensive output is equal, +/- equal, and ATOI within 3 shifts.

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09-09-2010, 10:45 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Comparing speculation against opinion isn't a very strong argument.

Fact is, more time on ice, greater the chance of being a contributor or a liability.

Their offensive output is equal, +/- equal, and ATOI within 3 shifts.
Their +/- is equal? That pretty much probes that Regehr is better. He plays on a starved offensive team, and goes up against the top players from the opposition, while Murray doesn't. Vlasic-Blake went up against the best players for us. Regehr is not a liability in the top-4, and Murray is.

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09-09-2010, 10:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Comparing speculation against opinion isn't a very strong argument.

Fact is, more time on ice, greater the chance of being a contributor or a liability.

Their offensive output is equal, +/- equal, and ATOI within 3 shifts.
Now I'm not advocating trading Murray, but I believe that Murray did keep Boyle from putting up bigger numbers. So he could be considered a liability by playing on the top D line.

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Old
09-09-2010, 10:49 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NorthBaySharksFan View Post
Now I'm not advocating trading Murray, but I believe that Murray did keep Boyle from putting up bigger numbers. So he could be considered a liability by playing on the top D line.
Certainly agree with you on that, but Regehr isn't exactly much to desire offensively either.

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09-09-2010, 10:52 PM
  #32
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I'd much rather make the proper payment to fetch back Ian White instead.

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Old
09-09-2010, 10:53 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SharksAddict View Post
Certainly agree with you on that, but Regehr isn't exactly much to desire offensively either.
I think he meant that Murray's immobility and not great defensive play didn't give Boyle the confidence to play a little more offensively and pinch up a little more. If he didn't mean that, then my bad. I do believe that though. Regehr would help Boyle become a bigger offensive threat IMO.

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09-09-2010, 10:53 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Clutchy View Post
Their +/- is equal? That pretty much probes that Regehr is better. He plays on a starved offensive team, and goes up against the top players from the opposition, while Murray doesn't. Vlasic-Blake went up against the best players for us. Regehr is not a liability in the top-4, and Murray is.
Boyle is a defensive liability and he damn well knows it. Murray is not a great defenseman, but he's worth his pay, doles out punishment and stays relatively safe playing on a offensive minded team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBaySharksFan View Post
Now I'm not advocating trading Murray, but I believe that Murray did keep Boyle from putting up bigger numbers. So he could be considered a liability by playing on the top D line.
2nd most points in his career and Murray was holding him down?

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Old
09-09-2010, 10:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Boyle is a defensive liability and he damn well knows it. Murray is not a great defenseman, but he's worth his pay, doles out punishment and stays relatively safe playing on a offensive minded team.



2nd most points in his career and Murray was holding him down?
Sure, but Boyle forces himself to play defensively a bit because Murray's not great. I know how Murray's OK, but Regehr is perfect for us IMO.

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09-09-2010, 11:02 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Boyle is a defensive liability and he damn well knows it. Murray is not a great defenseman, but he's worth his pay, doles out punishment and stays relatively safe playing on a offensive minded team.



2nd most points in his career and Murray was holding him down?
DW did not bring in Danny Boyle for his defensive prowess. He's here for his offensive abilities, his tenacity, and his PP QB abilities.
Yeah, with the team we had last season, if he had a more mobile partner, then he puts up the most points of his career. Murray belongs on the 2nd line, not the 1st line.

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09-09-2010, 11:04 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBaySharksFan View Post
DW did not bring in Danny Boyle for his defensive prowess. He's here for his offensive abilities, his tenacity, and his PP QB abilities.
Yeah, with the team we had last season, if he had a more mobile partner, then he puts up the most points of his career. Murray belongs on the 2nd line, not the 1st line.
I agree 100% and that is one of the main reasons I want Regehr.

EDIT: Except I disagree with the part about Murray belonging on the second line. 3rd line IMO.

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Old
09-09-2010, 11:46 PM
  #38
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Kevin Bieksa anyone?

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Old
09-09-2010, 11:52 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Robin Regehr: 81 - 2G - 15A - 80PIM - 21:38 ATOI

Douglas Murray: 78 - 4G - 13A - 66PIM - 20:20 ATOI

Worth the extra $$$? Not by the numbers imo... gotta see a bigger gap than that. And we all saw how much better Murray was last season than the year prior. I think he's got a safe spot on the team.
Statistics are lying in this case, Regehr was injured most of last year (did not know that untill I read the op's article), possibly the only reason he wasn't on team Canada, and honestly considering Murray was playing with Boyle those numbers don't help him much. Regehr is certainly an upgrade from Murray, now one worth the salary difference I myself am not so sure.

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09-09-2010, 11:53 PM
  #40
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Simply atrocious. SIMPLY ATROCIOUS.

My brain is bleeding and it is all your fault.

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09-09-2010, 11:53 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Chaotic8 View Post
Kevin Bieksa anyone?
See story in nhl news/notes - salo may be out for season.

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09-09-2010, 11:54 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
See story in nhl news/notes - salo may be out for season.
I think you missed the sarcasm.

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:03 AM
  #43
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Not good, no interest. He's Scott Hannan only with red hair and ears that stick out. Honestly, he doesn't solve any of the team's problems, we have plenty of slow dmen who can't score or pass.

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:08 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Robin Regehr: 81 - 2G - 15A - 80PIM - 21:38 ATOI

Douglas Murray: 78 - 4G - 13A - 66PIM - 20:20 ATOI

Worth the extra $$$? Not by the numbers imo... gotta see a bigger gap than that. And we all saw how much better Murray was last season than the year prior. I think he's got a safe spot on the team.
Check out their QUALCOMP - that's a pretty big spread.

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:11 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by zombie kopitar View Post
Statistics are lying in this case, Regehr was injured most of last year (did not know that untill I read the op's article), possibly the only reason he wasn't on team Canada, and honestly considering Murray was playing with Boyle those numbers don't help him much. Regehr is certainly an upgrade from Murray, now one worth the salary difference I myself am not so sure.
I've never been arguing that Murray is a better defenseman, despite what it may sound like. I just don't see enough of a gap to take on much more money. If all it took was Huskins and Mitchell, then the deal is done, but no way Calgary takes that.

But I don't understand your point about numbers lying. Regher posted point and ice time totals near what he usually has done throughout his career. He also played more games than Murray?

I don't know how you'd ever factor Regher in Team Canada, but Douglas made Team Sweden - at the behest of Nick Lidstrom no less

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:14 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Check out their QUALCOMP - that's a pretty big spread.
Sorry Gilligan, I won't lie... That stuff boggles my mind.

Post it and explain it?

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:16 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Sorry Gilligan, I won't lie... That stuff boggles my mind.

Post it and explain it?
Quality of Competition is how good the players that they play against are. I think, not sure. It boggles my mind too, .

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:18 AM
  #48
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No. The defense doesn't need to get any less mobile. The Sharks need a puck-moving, two-way defenseman not a one dimensional shutdown d-man.

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:31 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by JPavs8Clutchy View Post
Quality of Competition is how good the players that they play against are. I think, not sure. It boggles my mind too, .
Pretty much. As I understand it, it's the average +/- of the 5 opposing players a player faces. The higher, then, obviously, the tougher the competition... Regehr had a 0.093 (good for #14 among dmen who had > 15 min ES TOI), while Murray had a 0.024 (#60 among the same set of dmen).

Basically, even though Regehr had slightly more TOI, he faced much harder competition, too.

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Old
09-10-2010, 12:43 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Sorry Gilligan, I won't lie... That stuff boggles my mind.

Post it and explain it?
according to behindthenet.ca, both players are negative in their adjusted +/-, with murray at -0.87 and regehr at -0.30.

they calculate it by subtracting the player's +/- with the team's +/- when he's off the ice. that's probably the easiest advanced stat in my opinion, and worth noting that murray was + 0.88 in the playoffs.

a more complicated stat is GVT (goals vs threshold), basically the number of goals contributed by a player vs what a marginal player would provide, and murray had a 2.5 while regehr had a 3.8. this represents a small difference.

regehr faced a higher quality of competition (0.093 vs .047) with worse teammates (-0.005 vs 0.072). Since the two stats above aren't adjusted for teammates/opponents, it seems that, at least for 2009-2010, regehr was clearly a better player than murray.

Is that enough to justify the extra 1.5 million and whatever calgary would want in exchange? I'm not sure, but I'd trade him for huskins+mitchell+pick in a heartbeat (why would the flames do this?). the sharks would need another solid PK'er for sure though.

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