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Old
09-10-2010, 12:52 AM
  #51
SactoShork
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Originally Posted by triplea112 View Post
according to behindthenet.ca, both players are negative in their adjusted +/-, with murray at -0.87 and regehr at -0.30.

they calculate it by subtracting the player's +/- with the team's +/- when he's off the ice. that's probably the easiest advanced stat in my opinion, and worth noting that murray was + 0.88 in the playoffs.

a more complicated stat is GVT (goals vs threshold), basically the number of goals contributed by a player vs what a marginal player would provide, and murray had a 2.5 while regehr had a 3.8. this represents a small difference.

regehr faced a higher quality of competition (0.093 vs .047) with worse teammates (-0.005 vs 0.072). Since the two stats above aren't adjusted for teammates/opponents, it seems that, at least for 2009-2010, regehr was clearly a better player than murray.

Is that enough to justify the extra 1.5 million and whatever calgary would want in exchange? I'm not sure, but I'd trade him for huskins+mitchell+pick in a heartbeat (why would the flames do this?). the sharks would need another solid PK'er for sure though.

Thanks for the explanation (Gilligan too).

But yeah, the reason I play devil's advocate for Murray, is that I've seen quite a bit of Regher and I don't think it worth Murray. Douglas did pretty decent for a man of his size and physical play, imo. Huskins and Mitchell are just spare parts now - Murray brings a mean character to this team*.

I would think Calgary is looking for nothing less than a consistent scorer for Regher. I would think if the Sharks wanna hand in this trade, they're giving up a solid forward.

(*edit: i shouldn't insinuate Regher ain't mean, cause he is. But Doug is Doug)

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09-10-2010, 01:02 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Thanks for the explanation (Gilligan too).

But yeah, the reason I play devil's advocate for Murray, is that I've seen quite a bit of Regher and I don't think it worth Murray. Douglas did pretty decent for a man of his size and physical play, imo. Huskins and Mitchell are just spare parts now - Murray brings a mean character to this team*.

I would think Calgary is looking for nothing less than a consistent scorer for Regher. I would think if the Sharks wanna hand in this trade, they're giving up a solid forward.

(*edit: i shouldn't insinuate Regher ain't mean, cause he is. But Doug is Doug)
one thing that's always overlooked with douglas murray is how good he is at keeping the puck in the offensive zone. that probably explains why he's on the first line with boyle.

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09-10-2010, 01:07 AM
  #53
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See story in nhl news/notes - salo may be out for season.
Oh yes, I forget about Salo's injury. Long-term IR or bust for Nucks cap space.
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Originally Posted by Admiral View Post
No. The defense doesn't need to get any less mobile. The Sharks need a puck-moving, two-way defenseman not a one dimensional shutdown d-man.
True and I agree, though just about anything will be an improvement over what is currently listed.

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09-10-2010, 01:13 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by exchequer View Post
one thing that's always overlooked with douglas murray is how good he is at keeping the puck in the offensive zone. that probably explains why he's on the first line with boyle.
Keeping it in, breaking it out - Douglas ain't all that bad. My fav...


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09-10-2010, 09:56 AM
  #55
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Keeping it in, breaking it out - Douglas ain't all that bad. My fav...

thanks, that totally made my morning. plus, i kinda liked the reminder clips at the end of Perry's shennanigans against the Sharks.

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09-10-2010, 10:34 AM
  #56
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Not good, no interest. He's Scott Hannan only with red hair and ears that stick out. Honestly, he doesn't solve any of the team's problems, we have plenty of slow dmen who can't score or pass.
Would he be faster if he taped his ear back?

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09-10-2010, 10:46 AM
  #57
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There is a group of posters here who have a very low opinion of Murray. I just don't get it. He's gotten increasingly better every year and was very good last year. He uses his big body to punish opponents and I don't see him as a defensive liability at all.

Luckily, DW agrees with me. (about 9:30 in)

http://knbram.dnn.cumulus.net/OnKNBR...4/Default.aspx

Now, I agree that Regehr is a better D man than Murray. But, right now, we need to add a top 4 D man. Not upgrade one of our existing top 4 at an extra 1.5 million per year cap hit.

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09-10-2010, 10:50 AM
  #58
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I concur, we don't need Regher. What we need is a quick skating two-way defensemen to pair with Vlasic, Regher is all wrong. Like someone else said, he's Hannen (but slower).

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09-10-2010, 11:34 AM
  #59
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it is funny how many people complain about murray being so bad, when he made the olympic team for sweden (who arguebably has the 2nd best defensive core in the olympics).

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09-10-2010, 11:48 AM
  #60
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Ideally, we find a 2-way player. But Regher is a top 4 defenseman, can ice 20+ a night, has a nasty streak and will clear the net. Those are skills that are in need as well with Blake retiring. He has played on the PP as well successfully. His cap hit is fair and manageable. He would pair well with Vlasic as the puck mover of the two. No matter what, Vlasic is going to have to step up to be a solid top-4 player this year and show he can bring an offensive element and in many respects, Vlasic is really the 2-way defenseman we need to sign.

While Regher wouldn't be my first choice to stabilize the defensive core, he's not a bad second tier choice.

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09-10-2010, 12:54 PM
  #61
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Keeping it in, breaking it out - Douglas ain't all that bad. My fav...



I was at that game. Everyone was so hoping/cheering Crankshaft would just unload on him.

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09-10-2010, 01:57 PM
  #62
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Well done to all of those who brought the stats.

Beyond the stats, Calgary is a team on the decline and Regehr is part of that. There is a reason, they can't score. Begging for a defense of of 5 unidimensional shutdowns plus Boyle is asking for the same issue. I am repeating the argument. Look at the last finals and both defenses were mobile with more than just the top d guy contributing with outlets and offense. It isn't the 90s anymore. Part of Calgary's problem is that they have a coach who is stuck in the dark ages. Regehr is an ideal player for his system which is not a winning system.

The question for those begging for another shutdown is "Do you want to feel tough and lose OR do you want to take risks and have a chance to win?"

The benchmark for a trade or acquisition is whether it markedly upgrades the whole team. Marginal improvement in one area or another does not make for a good trade. IMO, Regehr is at best a marginal improvement. DW has made too many marginals in the last couple of years and it will show. Players do not like movement and they know when swaps are marginal. There is backlash in the FA market as well as on the team and in the org.

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09-10-2010, 02:29 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Well done to all of those who brought the stats.

Beyond the stats, Calgary is a team on the decline and Regehr is part of that. There is a reason, they can't score. Begging for a defense of of 5 unidimensional shutdowns plus Boyle is asking for the same issue. I am repeating the argument. Look at the last finals and both defenses were mobile with more than just the top d guy contributing with outlets and offense. It isn't the 90s anymore. Part of Calgary's problem is that they have a coach who is stuck in the dark ages. Regehr is an ideal player for his system which is not a winning system.

The question for those begging for another shutdown is "Do you want to feel tough and lose OR do you want to take risks and have a chance to win?"

The benchmark for a trade or acquisition is whether it markedly upgrades the whole team. Marginal improvement in one area or another does not make for a good trade. IMO, Regehr is at best a marginal improvement. DW has made too many marginals in the last couple of years and it will show. Players do not like movement and they know when swaps are marginal. There is backlash in the FA market as well as on the team and in the org.
thanks. it's a relief to hear that because i half expected to have made a mistake somewhere.

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Old
09-10-2010, 02:58 PM
  #64
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Yeah, Easy as the voice of reason. Agree - Regehr is only a marginal improvement to Murray.

I'm just blinded by such a strong belief that our D needs massive help.

So, we're clearly going to do a trade by the deadline. The question I have is who can we *realistically* acquire, that the D needs (a solid, puckmoving, 2-way dman) and what would it take? The same darn question we've been discussing all off-season ad naseum.

I've seen this listed before but lost track of which thread it's in (maybe we need 1 canonical "Top 4 Dman Sharks will trade for" thread for this season as it seems to be the #1 topic this season):

TeamPlayerMy comments
Anaheim Ducks Nothing as far as I can tell
Atlanta Thrashers Nothing as far as I can tell
Boston Bruins Nothing as far as I can tell
Buffalo SabresButlerNot established but seems to have solid top 4 potential
Calgary FlamesWhite, Giordano, RegehrGiordano or White (whichever the Flames have a tough time re-signing)
Carolina HurricanesGleasonValued highly by Canes, marginal improvement to Murray…
Chicago Blackhawks Not a likely trade partner
Colorado AvalancheLilesMeh, other fans have been high on him. I'm not.
Columbus Blue JacketsHejda, KleslaPrefer Klesla to Hejda. What do the BJs want? Do we have it?
Dallas StarsNiskanen, RiberoDecent but Stars may not want to trade with us
Detroit Red Wings Nothing as far as I can tell
Edmonton OilersSouray, Smid, GilbertSmid or Gilbert would be better, IMO, than Souray
Florida PanthersWidemanDecent fit, possible
LA Kings Not a likely trade partner
Minnesota WildBurnsDoesn't appear Wild will trade him…
Montreal Canadiens Nothing as far as I can tell
Nashville Predators Nothing as far as I can tell. No way Suter or Weber are available.
NJ Devils Nothing as far as I can tell
NY IslandersStreit, WisniewskiDoubt Streit gets moved. Wiz? Possible. Clowe…
NY RangersStaal, GirardiStaal - talked to death. If he re-signs, scratch him from this list. Girardi doubtful as he just re-signed
Ottawa SenatorsKubaDecent. Seems tradeable - I think the Sens have good D depth. What would it take?
Philadelphia FlyersCoburnIdeal
Phoenix Coyotes Not a likely trade partner
Pittsburgh PenguinsLetangWould be ideal. Probably would take Seto.
St. Louis BluesPolakProbably would take too much
Tampa Bay Lightning Nothing as far as I can tell
Toronto Maple LeafsKaberle, BeauchiminMeh on either. Kaberle only if we had a better partner for Boyle.
Vancouver CanucksBieksaNot ideal, likely not available until Salo comes off LTIR
Washington Capitals Nothing as far as I can tell

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Old
09-10-2010, 03:16 PM
  #65
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I wouldn't envision Regehr as a replacement for Murray on the Sharks current roster. I see him moving one of Wallin or Demers out of the top four and IMO that would be a very good thing. I really like Demers but I'm not ready to proclaim his defensive game ready for top four minutes going into the season. After watching a lot of Wallin over the last three years what I saw was a serviceable 6/7 guy not a player who should be logging top four minutes. As someone else mentioned if McLellan pairs Regehr with Vlasic it could allow Vlasic to be more of the PMD the roster is desperately lacking.

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09-10-2010, 03:54 PM
  #66
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Top 10 trade options:
1. James Wiznewski, Ian White- they are both minute eating #2/3 d-man who offer physicality, puck movement, mobility, and a hard point shot (we have 2 PPQBs, but no trigger's save Marleau and Pavelski). Also their cap hits are quite reasonable. Cost=1st (ideally conditional on re-signing)

3. Coburn- If Wilson gets Coburn for Niemi/Niitty/Greiss+1st it would be beyond terrific. Like Burns (who absolutely will not be available- but I said that about Ballard), he is the perfect fit for Boyle, and this team. Big, mobile, point shot, good both ways, young- pretty much everything we could ask for. My money is on Philly keeping everyone, and possibly dealing Timonen next year.

4. Francois Beauchmein- assuming Kaberle re-signs and Schenn, Gunnarsson get 2.5+ each, Toronto is going to have 7 d-men making something like 25 million, the young guys, Kaberle, Phaneuf, and likely Komisarek are going nowhere, Beauchmein would likely be out. They'll want a top 6 forward, but I doubt they are able to get one. Beauchmein is mobile, physical, good on the penalty kill, has a point shot and decent first pass, and he has also proven to play above his head with an elite d-man (Niedermayer). Also, we would go into next year with a nice top 5 (Boyle-Vlasic-Beau-Murray-Demers) defense and top 8 (Thornton*, Marleau, Heatley, Clowe, Pavelski, Setoguchi, Couture, McGinn*) forwards signed, meaning we don't have to freak out about acquiring a d-man in free agency, or giving up additional assets in trade. Cost= 1st for Beau+3rd.

5. Jan Hejda- Nice two-way (leaning pretty far defensively) mobile d-man. Not terrible physical, but very, very solid. Decent first pass. Cost= 2nd+3rd. UFA, I expect Columbus to be out, and Hejda to be on the market.

6. Trevor Daley- similar value to Beauchmein but lacks the point shot or physicality, also is not signed for an additional year.

7. John Michael Liles- Good offensive d-man who is okay defensively, great first pass and power play option. Relatively pricey at 4.2 million, but it answers our top 4 question for this year and next. Would allow us to have a PMD on each pairing (maybe 4 depending on Vlasic). Cost=1st, defensive d, 2nd+prospect. My money is on them asking for Petrecki or Murray, maybe Clowe.

8. Butler/Sekera- young two-way potential top 4 d-men in extremely deep systems. Whether they are ideal or more of the same will be seen this year, but Buffalo is going to move some of their 9 NHL d-men eventually. Cost=2nd, equivalent forward.

9. Kuba- pretty solid fit, Ottawa has a deep defense. Unfortunately, I think they'll wait until Phillips is re-signed and Cowen has proven himself top 4 capable (along with Gonchar, Kulikov, and Phillips). I think they'd want a forward prospect or first however.

10. Eric Brewer- top 4 mobile, minute-eater, two-way, leader. Doesn't have the point shot, or high end defensive play. Solid first pass. Cost=2nd

HM: Martinek (if healthy)- he isn't ideal, but he is dirt cheap, so we could possibly add him as an extra depth guy.

Interested once UFA:
Hamrlik
McCabe
Bieska (I'd be interested via trade to, but that isn't happening.

Not sure if it is even possible to work out, but eventually I think Boston will need to ditch Sturm, and rather be waived, I think they'd prefer to trade him, if he'd waive for us, he'd be phenomenal scoring depth.
Couture-Thornton-Heatley
Sturm-Marleau-McGinn/Seto
Clowe-Pavelski-Setoguchi/McGinn
Mitchell-Nichol-Mayers

Only Philly has something like that.

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Old
09-10-2010, 04:01 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Got Mullet View Post
I wouldn't envision Regehr as a replacement for Murray on the Sharks current roster. I see him moving one of Wallin or Demers out of the top four and IMO that would be a very good thing. I really like Demers but I'm not ready to proclaim his defensive game ready for top four minutes going into the season. After watching a lot of Wallin over the last three years what I saw was a serviceable 6/7 guy not a player who should be logging top four minutes. As someone else mentioned if McLellan pairs Regehr with Vlasic it could allow Vlasic to be more of the PMD the roster is desperately lacking.
100% agreed!

Adding Regehr to the top four without losing Murray also provides a huge safety net int he case of injury. We saw how bad the Sharks were without Vlasic in the line up, can you imagine how bad they would be if either Vlasic or Boyle went down.

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09-10-2010, 04:35 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CupfortheSharks View Post
There is a group of posters here who have a very low opinion of Murray. I just don't get it. He's gotten increasingly better every year and was very good last year. He uses his big body to punish opponents and I don't see him as a defensive liability at all.

Luckily, DW agrees with me. (about 9:30 in)

http://knbram.dnn.cumulus.net/OnKNBR...4/Default.aspx

Now, I agree that Regehr is a better D man than Murray. But, right now, we need to add a top 4 D man. Not upgrade one of our existing top 4 at an extra 1.5 million per year cap hit.
I am one of those posters. I fully acknowledge what Douglas Murray does but it is simply not good enough. He brings absolutely nothing past physicality and decent defensive play. No offense whatsoever. His puck-moving skills and offensive abilities are not good enough for the amount of minutes they need him to play.

As for DW being some sort of affirmation, you're getting the opinion of a guy who believed Kent Huskins was the next Rob Scuderi (a.k.a. The Piece) as if he was going to be a pivotal player to a Cup run. This is also the guy that has been glowing since his Niclas Wallin acquisition. Also a guy that justifies a plain salary dump, and an awful one at that, as giving the young guys a chance. Doug Wilson's opinion, although the only one that means anything in practice, is not one that confirms much of anything. If it did, we'd have a Cup by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
it is funny how many people complain about murray being so bad, when he made the olympic team for sweden (who arguebably has the 2nd best defensive core in the olympics).
How is that even relevant? It doesn't mean anything towards what a team needs to win a Stanley Cup.

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09-10-2010, 04:35 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
I've never been arguing that Murray is a better defenseman, despite what it may sound like. I just don't see enough of a gap to take on much more money. If all it took was Huskins and Mitchell, then the deal is done, but no way Calgary takes that.

But I don't understand your point about numbers lying. Regher posted point and ice time totals near what he usually has done throughout his career. He also played more games than Murray?

I don't know how you'd ever factor Regher in Team Canada, but Douglas made Team Sweden - at the behest of Nick Lidstrom no less
Regher has been a regular staple of team canada for years. He was a part of the 06 team and i believe the 04 world cup team as well if not the 02 team. I agree with the earlier post that he was probably looked at by yzerman and team canada. I dont think regher is as good as he used to be but if was injured i can understand his play.

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09-10-2010, 04:38 PM
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100% agreed!

Adding Regehr to the top four without losing Murray also provides a huge safety net int he case of injury. We saw how bad the Sharks were without Vlasic in the line up, can you imagine how bad they would be if either Vlasic or Boyle went down.
You don't need to be the designated puck-mover to move the puck. Being the delegated shutdown d-men doesn't prevent you from being able to move the puck. Let's not pretend here. Vlasic is not going to get any better at moving the puck simply because he's not seen as the shutdown d-man on his pairing.

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09-10-2010, 05:15 PM
  #71
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Agree. 2 goals in 71 games (PO+Reg Season) is simply atrocious.
And I believe one of those goals bounced off his back near the side of the net and in from a shot by McLaren.

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09-10-2010, 05:32 PM
  #72
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And I believe one of those goals bounced off his back near the side of the net and in from a shot by McLaren.
I'm pretty sure you aren't not wrong. I remember that goal when watching a highlight reel.

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09-10-2010, 05:36 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Well done to all of those who brought the stats.

Beyond the stats, Calgary is a team on the decline and Regehr is part of that. There is a reason, they can't score. Begging for a defense of of 5 unidimensional shutdowns plus Boyle is asking for the same issue. I am repeating the argument. Look at the last finals and both defenses were mobile with more than just the top d guy contributing with outlets and offense. It isn't the 90s anymore. Part of Calgary's problem is that they have a coach who is stuck in the dark ages. Regehr is an ideal player for his system which is not a winning system.

The question for those begging for another shutdown is "Do you want to feel tough and lose OR do you want to take risks and have a chance to win?"

The benchmark for a trade or acquisition is whether it markedly upgrades the whole team. Marginal improvement in one area or another does not make for a good trade. IMO, Regehr is at best a marginal improvement. DW has made too many marginals in the last couple of years and it will show. Players do not like movement and they know when swaps are marginal. There is backlash in the FA market as well as on the team and in the org.
Easy i somewhat agree with a lot of your post but can you explain why you think regher is only a slight improvement? For me i think i said earlier that regher is on the decline but i still think he would be a huge improvement over what the sharks currently have. I do agree about the speed and puck moving ability being hampered with a move for regher but hes a player id rather see with someone like boyle then murray.

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09-10-2010, 06:25 PM
  #74
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Easy i somewhat agree with a lot of your post but can you explain why you think regher is only a slight improvement? For me i think i said earlier that regher is on the decline but i still think he would be a huge improvement over what the sharks currently have. I do agree about the speed and puck moving ability being hampered with a move for regher but hes a player id rather see with someone like boyle then murray.
Regehr is a slight upgrade to Murray. Regehr is slow and it hampers his ability to move the puck, same as Murray. Better than Murray defensively, but Murray compensates by being an animal about holding the puck in. Regehr gives the Flames the problem that Vlasic gives the Sharks, too much possession time for the other team despite great coverage.

The best hope for the Sharks at this point is for Demers to make a lightyear's leap in his defense because I don't think Vlasic is up to more than marginal improvement in his outlet game (he did improve marginally last year). When the Sharks lost Blake they lost their #1 shutdown option, and although his offense (Corsi) wasn't that good, he did have a history of two-way play.

Despite protestations to the contrary by Yawney, it appears that his evaluation of defenders puts a much higher premium on defense than offense (outlets and puck movement). Those evaluations are not lost on guys like Vlasic, etc. The only way Demers got time was when the Sharks were up against the wall. Boyle is so far out there offensively that there is no way Yawney reins him in, but the lesser lights are apparently getting evaluations that are less than glowing. The Sharks had plenty of guys in the A last year that could have outplayed Wallin, but DW was apparently moved to acquire him. I can't believe that Yawney didn't contribute to that evaluation of the Sharks defense.

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09-10-2010, 07:04 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The only way Demers got time was when the Sharks were up against the wall..
I don't buy this for a second. Demer's got his shot and proved he deserved it. Hit a small wall, went back down and when he came up was much improved about making some of those "rookie" mistakes and played out the rest of the season IIRC and deserved it. I mean you could say they only used Murray because they were up against a wall. I mean what else were they supposed to do. They put their chips in on Demer's and it worked out pretty well. And Demers was clearly given the green light to take his chances on going-O.

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