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Old
09-11-2010, 04:32 AM
  #76
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I don't buy this for a second. Demer's got his shot and proved he deserved it. Hit a small wall, went back down and when he came up was much improved about making some of those "rookie" mistakes and played out the rest of the season IIRC and deserved it. I mean you could say they only used Murray because they were up against a wall. I mean what else were they supposed to do. They put their chips in on Demer's and it worked out pretty well. And Demers was clearly given the green light to take his chances on going-O.
If you recall the playoffs, they went vet at the outset. Not Demers. That didn't work. Check the minutes on the early games. IMO, the best test for coaches true evals is the playoffs because the minutes shift to the extremes.

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09-11-2010, 10:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
If you recall the playoffs, they went vet at the outset. Not Demers. That didn't work. Check the minutes on the early games. IMO, the best test for coaches true evals is the playoffs because the minutes shift to the extremes.
First you said this "The only way Demers got time was when the Sharks were up against the wall.." and now your saying he didn't get time when the Sharks were up against the ultimate wall, "The Playoffs". I don't quite understand.

Where do you get your TOI data etc for playoff games?

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09-11-2010, 10:57 AM
  #78
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If you recall the playoffs, they went vet at the outset. Not Demers. That didn't work. Check the minutes on the early games. IMO, the best test for coaches true evals is the playoffs because the minutes shift to the extremes.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=5125

From that, it doesn't appear Demers' minutes at the start of the playoffs got limited drastically. It was after Game 4 of the Wings series.

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09-11-2010, 11:16 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=5125

From that, it doesn't appear Demers' minutes at the start of the playoffs got limited drastically. It was after Game 4 of the Wings series.
i don't have a side in the argument, but, whenever wallin was "healthy," he played over demers, which included game 1 vs colorado, game 5 vs detroit, and the chicago series. we were 1-5 in those games, scoring 1.66 goals per game. In those games demers averaged 5.7 minutes per game, some of that at RW and mostly on the PP.

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09-11-2010, 11:20 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by triplea112 View Post
i don't have a side in the argument, but, whenever wallin was "healthy," he played over demers, which included game 1 vs colorado, game 5 vs detroit, and the chicago series. we were 1-5 in those games, scoring 1.66 goals per game. In those games demers averaged 5.7 minutes per game, some of that at RW and mostly on the PP.
Thanks - yeah, I don't really have a side argument in how Demers was used last year. I knew there was a reason his minutes were cut down.

In any case, hopefully he steps it up this year as the #4 and can handle 18-20 minutes a game. That would be a bonanza.

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09-11-2010, 11:38 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Thanks - yeah, I don't really have a side argument in how Demers was used last year. I knew there was a reason his minutes were cut down.

In any case, hopefully he steps it up this year as the #4 and can handle 18-20 minutes a game. That would be a bonanza.
he averaged about 15 mins a game when wallin was out and seemed to do fine (at least to me)

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09-11-2010, 11:51 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by triplea112 View Post
he averaged about 15 mins a game when wallin was out and seemed to do fine (at least to me)
I agree and preferred his puck-movement and occasional defensive mistakes over Wallin's inability to move the puck and being slightly better defensively than Jason.

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09-11-2010, 01:48 PM
  #83
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You don't need to be the designated puck-mover to move the puck. Being the delegated shutdown d-men doesn't prevent you from being able to move the puck. Let's not pretend here. Vlasic is not going to get any better at moving the puck simply because he's not seen as the shutdown d-man on his pairing.
I disagree. When looking a Vlasic he needs to improve in two major areas which i would consider in the puck movement area.

1) Outlet passes - This requires time and the willingness to hold on the puck a touch longer to find the best play, not just the safest play. Having a player who can cover for you allows this to happen. If every time you push your comfort level and make a mistake the puck ends up in the back of the net you quickly stop pushing and play safe. You are also TOLD by the coaching staff to play safe.

2) Hold the offensive blue line - This is about trust and role. You have to trust that if the puck gets chipped by you your partner is going to be there to bail you out and make the big play. It is also about you role allowing you to take those chances. With Blake there is no question that Vlasic was the partner who's role it was to be the safety net, if pair with Regher this wouldnt be the case, both players would share the saftey net role and therefore both be expected to aggressively hold the line.

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09-11-2010, 02:46 PM
  #84
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I disagree. When looking a Vlasic he needs to improve in two major areas which i would consider in the puck movement area.

1) Outlet passes - This requires time and the willingness to hold on the puck a touch longer to find the best play, not just the safest play. Having a player who can cover for you allows this to happen. If every time you push your comfort level and make a mistake the puck ends up in the back of the net you quickly stop pushing and play safe. You are also TOLD by the coaching staff to play safe.

2) Hold the offensive blue line - This is about trust and role. You have to trust that if the puck gets chipped by you your partner is going to be there to bail you out and make the big play. It is also about you role allowing you to take those chances. With Blake there is no question that Vlasic was the partner who's role it was to be the safety net, if pair with Regher this wouldnt be the case, both players would share the saftey net role and therefore both be expected to aggressively hold the line.
1. When you're a defenseman, you gain experience in outlet passing whether you're offensive, two-way, or shutdown. There is no reason for him to not improve in this area regardless of what the coaches tell him or what anyone views his role to be on a pairing. Regardless of who is or isn't covering for you, outlet passes are everyone's responsibility and having someone better at covering you is not going to magically improve his skills in this department. As for the coaching side of it, I'm sure he has been told to play it safe but that doesn't mean chipping it along the boards and bailing out of the offensive blue line every single time. If he was doing everything right as the coaches ask of him, he wouldn't have gotten pulled from the 2nd power play unit. A lot of this simply falls on Vlasic and his mental game and is not really on his partner or his coaches.

2. With regards to Blake and Vlasic, they shared these roles. There was a lot more balance than people are willing to give credit for here. It was rare last year to see Vlasic on his own for an odd-man rush and Blake getting burned at the point by a puck because he was trying to hold it in. The simple reason why Vlasic plays conservative is that was what got him there and it's habit for him. He knows he's not strong on the puck and so he doesn't want to hurt his team by being something he's not.

Vlasic is this team's shutdown d-man. He's not a really good puck mover and putting Regehr at his side is not going to improve his puck-moving skills unless Vlasic himself takes a huge mental step in terms of risk-taking. And his risk-taking mental problems are not simply puck-related. Defensively, he is the same way. He won't dig in on the boards for a puck. He won't completely close off time and space. He won't ever stand up at the defensive blue line. Saying all of these passive stances to these situations is based on not having someone else be the shutdown d-man on his side is reaching, imo.

What Vlasic is right now is a very good shutdown d-man with limited puck skills and little offensive talent to speak of. Does he have that potential? I believe he does but not to the level of Boyle or Demers. At this point for this team, you deal with what you have and go from there and not try to base part of your team into what a player could be.

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Old
09-11-2010, 03:14 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
1. When you're a defenseman, you gain experience in outlet passing whether you're offensive, two-way, or shutdown. There is no reason for him to not improve in this area regardless of what the coaches tell him or what anyone views his role to be on a pairing. Regardless of who is or isn't covering for you, outlet passes are everyone's responsibility and having someone better at covering you is not going to magically improve his skills in this department. As for the coaching side of it, I'm sure he has been told to play it safe but that doesn't mean chipping it along the boards and bailing out of the offensive blue line every single time. If he was doing everything right as the coaches ask of him, he wouldn't have gotten pulled from the 2nd power play unit. A lot of this simply falls on Vlasic and his mental game and is not really on his partner or his coaches.

2. With regards to Blake and Vlasic, they shared these roles. There was a lot more balance than people are willing to give credit for here. It was rare last year to see Vlasic on his own for an odd-man rush and Blake getting burned at the point by a puck because he was trying to hold it in. The simple reason why Vlasic plays conservative is that was what got him there and it's habit for him. He knows he's not strong on the puck and so he doesn't want to hurt his team by being something he's not.

Vlasic is this team's shutdown d-man. He's not a really good puck mover and putting Regehr at his side is not going to improve his puck-moving skills unless Vlasic himself takes a huge mental step in terms of risk-taking. And his risk-taking mental problems are not simply puck-related. Defensively, he is the same way. He won't dig in on the boards for a puck. He won't completely close off time and space. He won't ever stand up at the defensive blue line. Saying all of these passive stances to these situations is based on not having someone else be the shutdown d-man on his side is reaching, imo.

What Vlasic is right now is a very good shutdown d-man with limited puck skills and little offensive talent to speak of. Does he have that potential? I believe he does but not to the level of Boyle or Demers. At this point for this team, you deal with what you have and go from there and not try to base part of your team into what a player could be.
From my perspective, Vlasic has offensive upside, and has the ability to carry the puck out still. He showed it in Juniors and while that doesn't always translate, he still is young and was asked when he came up to focus on defense and keep it simple.

I agree Blake and he would both start the offense often by playing catch behind the net until Blake could start up, or a forward would come back. Regher makes a good first pass much like Murray. If that is a pairing, Vlasic will be put in the position to carry the puck and I believe given the opportunity - at this point in his development, he should start to show that he has the ability to be a 2-way player.

That said, if we picked another offensive defenseman or a 2-way defenseman to pair with Vlasic, you may not see him improve in moving the puck out of the zone.

There is no definitive argument to can he or will he. But we will see what TMac has in mind for Vlasics responsibilities starting in preseason. My guess is you will see him carrying the puck this year - even without Regher.

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09-11-2010, 07:39 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
There is no definitive argument to can he or will he. But we will see what TMac has in mind for Vlasics responsibilities starting in preseason. My guess is you will see him carrying the puck this year - even without Regher.
No question about that. I would really like to see Vlasic work on getting the puck on net in the offensive zone. Don't get what i am saying wrong, i do NOT think he should be working on trying to develop a cannon, only on finding the lanes and getting the puck through traffic. Just like Lindstrom

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09-11-2010, 07:50 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
No question about that. I would really like to see Vlasic work on getting the puck on net in the offensive zone. Don't get what i am saying wrong, i do NOT think he should be working on trying to develop a cannon, only on finding the lanes and getting the puck through traffic. Just like Lindstrom
If Vlasic ever becomes a 1-time Norris winner, I will be happy. But I have never seen Lindstrom play, or seen his stats. But he won the Norris that one time.

Seriously though, I agree 100% with your post.

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Old
09-11-2010, 09:00 PM
  #88
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This would make our defense about as quick as Byron Leftwich's release.

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09-12-2010, 01:29 AM
  #89
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This would make our defense about as quick as Byron Leftwich's release.
Way to blow my high man..... that's a cold reality. (... even if the spelling is a bit liberal ... but I get the point)

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Old
09-12-2010, 12:53 PM
  #90
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back on topic, FTF attempts to tackle the issue:
http://www.fearthefin.com/2010/9/12/...ade-rumor-talk

i don't wanna give up a 1st for regehr though.. they're nice to have. once again, just have to say, damn you wallin.

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