I am just so tired of people talking about Frans as not a cornerstone of this franchise. I see him as filling a key role and adding so much to this club that goes unnoticed. I am willing to say he is the second or third most important part of the team right now in the role he fills behind John Tavares and maybe even in front of Matt Martin. I am not saying he's the third best forward on this team, just saying he is top three in importance for the club for what he does.
Another poster up top sees what I see but some fool in another thread said he would trade Nielsen and a pick for Umberger to have a true number 2 center!!! UMBERGER!!!
I hear ya.. Frans definitely serves a key role on this team and I hope he remains a main part of our core going forward (PK, PP, two way center). Didn't he win or come close to winning most under rated player poll last year? He went through a rough patch this year but I have nothing bad to say about Frans. I was very excited when we resigned him (now we just need to resign PAP before moving to the UFA/draft). Unless we make some additional moves in the offseason, I would like to see him and Bailey play together next year in meaningful games and see what happens.
I think I've finally figured out the HFBoards logic:
All our 19-20-21-22-23 year old kids are not as good as and/or haven't developed as quickly as Tavares (or Crosby/Hall/RNH).
Therefore we should trade our crappy-performing prospects for someone else's better players. Because all the other GMs are dumber than our guy Snow. (This is especially true if we package our crappy prospects with our ancient crappy over-the-hill has been players.)
If we can't trade them for good players then we need to waive them or summarily execute them. Just so long as we don't have to watch them not be like Tavares after we spent years dreamily fantasizing about how good their college / junior / AHL stats have looked and correspondingly setting our unrealistic expectations for their instant NHL stardom.
Then we can lose some more and get more high draft picks to pine over until they too fail to perform like Tavares and instead perform like kids trying to learn / figure out the hardest league in the world to play in.
I think I've finally figured out the HFBoards logic:
All our 19-20-21-22-23 year old kids are not as good as and/or haven't developed as quickly as Tavares (or Crosby/Hall/RNH).
Therefore we should trade our crappy-performing prospects for someone else's better players. Because all the other GMs are dumber than our guy Snow. (This is especially true if we package our crappy prospects with our ancient crappy over-the-hill has been players.)
If we can't trade them for good players then we need to waive them or summarily execute them. Just so long as we don't have to watch them not be like Tavares after we spent years dreamily fantasizing about how good their college / junior / AHL stats have looked and correspondingly setting our unrealistic expectations for their instant NHL stardom.
Then we can lose some more and get more high draft picks to pine over until they too fail to perform like Tavares and instead perform like kids trying to learn / figure out the hardest league in the world to play in.
Repeat.
Am I missing anything?
You would think this is what many suggest but I thought this thread has been mostly positive about Bailey. I know I am.. I honestly look at our team and if we do nothing other than sign PAP and bring up 1 or 2 of the kids who are ready, we will already be slightly better than this year and knocking on the playoff door as our core matures. If we want to become a legit contender next year however, we still need a couple of solid moves but we are definitely moving in the right direction and in better shape personnel wise than we have been in the last few years.
Kid is starting to come into his own. Obviously the 5 points are amazing, but he is just playing sound hockey across the board. Really impressed with this kid(yes, he's still only 22... I think a lot of people forget that).
Kid is starting to come into his own. Obviously the 5 points are amazing, but he is just playing sound hockey across the board. Really impressed with this kid(yes, he's still only 22... I think a lot of people forget that).
this guy has to produce over the course of a season. not down on him, just not impressed. flash-in-the-pan performances (6 to 10 game hot streaks included) are nice when you're producing all year long. they are much less nice when you don't.
hopefully for JB's sake, it was just a matter of playing with some talented players.
this guy has to produce over the course of a season. not down on him, just not impressed. flash-in-the-pan performances (6 to 10 game hot streaks included) are nice when you're producing all year long. they are much less nice when you don't.
hopefully for JB's sake, it was just a matter of playing with some talented players.
I agree with everything you just said. I just hope Josh is finally putting it all together for real. We will find out based on how he starts off next season.
this guy has to produce over the course of a season. not down on him, just not impressed. flash-in-the-pan performances (6 to 10 game hot streaks included) are nice when you're producing all year long. they are much less nice when you don't.
hopefully for JB's sake, it was just a matter of playing with some talented players.
While I agree with your sentiment, I feel like your last line should be stressed more. On top of this, Bailey is having success as a winger.
Does anyone here honestly feel that Josh Bailey has often been in a position built for success and simply did not grasp it?
This is a young player. A young player on a team of mostly young players. There's very little room for error here. Josh Bailey is one of our most experienced forwards. Is that not ridiculous?
Just keep that in mind when judging some of our young players. They're mostly figuring it out entirely on their own.
While I agree with your sentiment, I feel like your last line should be stressed more. On top of this, Bailey is having success as a winger.
Does anyone here honestly feel that Josh Bailey has often been in a position built for success and simply did not grasp it?
This is a young player. A young player on a team of mostly young players. There's very little room for error here. Josh Bailey is one of our most experienced forwards. Is that not ridiculous?
Just keep that in mind when judging some of our young players. They're mostly figuring it out entirely on their own.
still, the similar thought (i.e. judge a man in the context you find him) can be applied to everyone below Wang. Snow is clearly hamstrung by owner input and payroll limitations (even if you don't agree with his moves- eg. allocation of funds- with what he has). Cappy is hamstrung by talent level (even if you don't agree with his moves- eg. line combos- with what he has). And so on down the line.... but that's why I like to praise the guys who have been playing like real NHLers all season. I still like JB and KO, I just won't get too excited about a flurry of points now. If they and Frans finally produce over the course of next season as 50/50/50 guys, I'll be thrilled. We all will be.
These points now are window dressing that may or may not mean anything for next season....
While I agree with your sentiment, I feel like your last line should be stressed more. On top of this, Bailey is having success as a winger.
Does anyone here honestly feel that Josh Bailey has often been in a position built for success and simply did not grasp it?
That's one perspective. Here's another that fits the data, and is equally valid IMO:
The organization wanted Bailey to be worth more than a tweener 2nd-3rd line winger who kills penalties. They wanted him to be the 2nd line center they drafted him to be. Bailey has proven the organization wrong. Bailey is now the tweener 2nd-3rd line winger they expected Comeau to be (Comeau proved the organization wrong - he's not a tweener 2nd-3rd line winger, he's a fringe NHL winger at best).
The result of this is the Isles have an enormous hole at 2nd-line center - a hole there's little promise of filling anytime soon. Everything I've seen of Strome screams winger, not center.
That's one perspective. Here's another that fits the data, and is equally valid IMO:
The organization wanted Bailey to be worth more than a tweener 2nd-3rd line winger who kills penalties. They wanted him to be the 2nd line center they drafted him to be. Bailey has proven the organization wrong. Bailey is now the tweener 2nd-3rd line winger they expected Comeau to be (Comeau proved the organization wrong - he's not a tweener 2nd-3rd line winger, he's a fringe NHL winger at best).
The result of this is the Isles have an enormous hole at 2nd-line center - a hole there's little promise of filling anytime soon. Everything I've seen of Strome screams winger, not center.
Cheers,
Dan-o
I still think we're in good shape even if Strome moves to wing. I think the Isles organization is very high on both Brock Nelson and Johan Sundstrom. Nelson projects more as a 2nd line center, but Sundstrom is a guy who could surprise a lot of people.
Of course Frans could also solidify this spot with a great year next season. Time will tell. Either way, I don't think we are in that bad of shape as far as our top-6 center depth goes.
I have been as down on Bailey as anyone (but not to the point of trading him).
Disgregarding the production that has shown up the last few weeks, I consider the way he is playing more revealing of the diffference in his game.
Bailey always possessed the IQ, vision, hands to be a productive NHL player. What his body language used to show was a young player that appeared confused, watched plays, and was not able to process the game quickly enough. He lacked some grit and confidence.
Compared to what we see now, he is much grittier, processed plays much quicker, is not standing around, shows greater confidence to make skill plays, and most of all, that look of confusion is gone from his body language and his eyes.
To me, over the past weeks, he has built a role as a hockey player from first a defensive base, to a very good PKer, and now an emerging scorer.
None of us know if it is illusory or wll last, but it is worth it for skeptical NYI fans to notice the difference in him. Keeping it and building on it are up to him. He is now settling into that winger role, but I like the confidence that I see.
I think I've finally figured out the HFBoards logic:
All our 19-20-21-22-23 year old kids are not as good as and/or haven't developed as quickly as Tavares (or Crosby/Hall/RNH).
Therefore we should trade our crappy-performing prospects for someone else's better players. Because all the other GMs are dumber than our guy Snow. (This is especially true if we package our crappy prospects with our ancient crappy over-the-hill has been players.)
If we can't trade them for good players then we need to waive them or summarily execute them. Just so long as we don't have to watch them not be like Tavares after we spent years dreamily fantasizing about how good their college / junior / AHL stats have looked and correspondingly setting our unrealistic expectations for their instant NHL stardom.
Then we can lose some more and get more high draft picks to pine over until they too fail to perform like Tavares and instead perform like kids trying to learn / figure out the hardest league in the world to play in.
I've always had a soft spot for Josh because of how he's been handled since the day we drafted him. Thrown to the wolves and asked to learn on the job in a league that's damn near impossible for 95% of those asked to reach their potential in that way.
On most organizations, he would have MAYBE one season under his belt at this point...for the Islanders, he'll has almost 3 times that at the ripe old age of 22. He was a good prospect but certainly not a Stamkos or JT type talent and was never afforded the opportunity to really learn how to play this game outside of juniors...that's not on him, that's on Garth and the organization.
For me, the fact that he is still out there showing us nights last night tells me all I need to know about the guts of this kid. A lot of prospects would be out of the league by now after struggling that much the last two seasons. I don't think most fans realize what a burden it is for guys, who have scored almost at will their entire careers before being drafted, to go MONTHS without scoring a goal and what that does to your confidence...and they're in the process of doing the same thing to El Nino as we speak.
If we had an NHL calibur coach, the last THREE SEASONS, don't you think they would have tried him at wing a little sooner than they did? There is so much more responsibility for a center and for a kid that's struggling so badly, you would think they would have said "hey, let's take some heat off of Josh, give him less to think about and see what he can do on the wing"...It's staggering that they allowed him to languish at center game after game after game without that ever dawning on them...but par for the course around here.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind around here either. If you hate Josh, or Okposo for that matter, have at it and enjoy yourselves...I for one have seen enough hockey in my life to know BOTH OF THEM will be a big part of this team going forward. The fact that so many fans want to ship them out the door will become a running joke on message boards across the web for years to come once they show us that the last few weeks was not a result of the games not meaning anything...mark my words.
The fact that so many fans want to ship them out the door will become a running joke on message boards across the web for years to come once they show us that the last few weeks was not a result of the games not meaning anything...mark my words.
scares me when i hear the clamouring... visions of Luongo & Chara demon-dancing through my head...
scares me when i hear the clamouring... visions of Luongo & Chara demon-dancing through my head...
Same here...and who exactly is waiting down at the Bridge, that is playing so well, that we can't have guys like Bailey and Okposo on this team? We NEVER spend money on any worth while UFA's for the most part so why re we rushing 22 and 23 year old kids out the door? Especially ones that have been asked to learn on the job and were put under way too much pressure before they should have...
I have seen enough former Islanders become stars in other teams sweaters because we lacked the patience to see their respective developments through to last a lifetime...and as someone said earlier, what are you going to get for them at this point if you did deal them? 3rd round picks? No thanks, I'd rather hold onto them until they play themselves out of the league altogether.
scares me when i hear the clamouring... visions of Luongo & Chara demon-dancing through my head...
i think the thing is, at least for me, I have been willing to move JB for a young dman. Most GMs know Josh is still very young and can improve. Look at what Ott had to give up for Turris, who had played a fraction of the games Josh had.
Anyway, i said a while ago that i felt Bails wasnt right as a pivot, that he would benefit from less pressure on the wing. It has certainly worked in the isles favor since his move.
To me, over the past weeks, he has built a role as a hockey player from first a defensive base, to a very good PKer, and now an emerging scorer.
i agree. During the course of this development he went through, people were still down on him because his stats still didnt look good enough. But obviously his stats are beginning to catch up to his all around improved play. He is so much stronger on his skates and so much more physical since about january.
Showing some really good effort to become a better 2 way player. Being moved to winger helped, but I think the effort bailey showed was the essential ingredient.
If he is so completely hopeless as you state, what would anyone give up for him?
Package him with other prospects.
Go ahead enjoy your little Josh Bailkey streak and come back to me next season when he takes 2 months off on the ice. Ill wait for your come back - He's only 22 and still learning.
The big question for Bailey will be whether or not he can keep his confidence and continue to play strong when faced with adversity. In the past, he has had hot streaks (if nothing like this), and when they end he begins to seem completely lost.
Over the past couple of months, Bailey's overall play has been much better, even when the points weren't coming. That is encouraging.
But, after ending this season strong, when the points don't come at some point next season (and there will be a slump at some point, he is only human) will he regress again? Or will he fight through it?
The talent is certainly there, and I don't think anyone has ever accused him of slacking. It is all about whether he can keep a level head throughout the year.
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