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Edmonton Oiler Revenues: An Analysis

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Old
01-26-2011, 10:06 PM
  #51
Metzen
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Seems I should add another $5m then?
Or $10-15M. Your suite calculations are grossly off as well

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01-26-2011, 10:09 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Metzen View Post
Or $10-15M. Your suite calculations are grossly off as well

I lifted them from Fourier, so I can't take credit for them.

However, are you saying $19m total for suites, or am I leaving out one of your figures?

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01-26-2011, 10:09 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pauser View Post
I find it amazing that the Oilers are still selling out when they're one of the worst teams in the league and have been for two straight years (let alone missing the playoffs for 5 years in a row).

People want to talk about how bad some of the "Southern" teams are to justify their low attendance figures, yet the Oilers have been equally bad or worse and still operate at 100% capacity.
Over the last 5 years the Oiler's have had the 2nd worst NHL record... 2nd only to NYI.

They do some great marketing in Edmonton.

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01-26-2011, 10:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I lifted them from Fourier, so I can't take credit for them.

However, are you saying $19m total for suites, or am I leaving out one of your figures?
$24M low end - $29M high end for the suites.

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01-26-2011, 10:11 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metzen View Post
$24M low end - $29M high end for the suites.

Yeah, just went back to your post.

Care to take a stab at the other categories?

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01-26-2011, 10:41 PM
  #56
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01-26-2011, 11:39 PM
  #57
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No worries.

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01-27-2011, 09:52 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metzen View Post
Just an FYI on this, the Sky Suite tickets average $500 per (as of 2010-2011). The sky suites hold 12 people ($6K) and the lower suites hold 24 people. I don't have pricing on the main concourse suites for 2010-2011
(2005-2006 Sky Suites were ~$200K per season [$4878/game] http://www.canada.com/edmonton/story...e-44eda760137f)


In 07/08 the prices to *rent* the suites where $10K/game for the main concourse (24 per) and $5K for the Sky Suites (12 per).
Source:
http://www.rexall-place.com/exec.html

I'm unsure where you got you're number of suites, the Oilers claim 66 suites:
http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=539641

They have 11 "5th level" suites. I'm unsure of the costs of those either or how many they seat.
[EDIT - This report says the 5th level suites were $120K/year in 2005-06, adding $5.4million revenue]

For the Sky Suites, assuming renting is the same price as purchasing, the revenue generated is $80K/game for the Sky Suites and $390K/game for the main concourse suites. This puts suite revenue at $3.2M/season for Sky Suites, + $15.99M for Main Concourse + $5.4M for "5th level" for the season for a total of $24.67M/season from suites.

[EDIT - ~$24.67million revenue from suites -- a combination of numbers from 2005-2006 till present]

*
Just an FYI since it's a pretty big discrepancy.

If Sky Suites increased in price from $5K / suite in 2005-2006 to $6K /suite today (an increase of ~20%), the other suites may have increased in price of around the same over that time making the $24.67milllion a possible $29.604million...

[EDIT AGAIN]
This makes the Carolina suite revenue a very, very sad thing. At $5-$3.9million/year for Carolina suites, this should highlight the discrepancy of the Canadian teams vs. some of the southern NHL teams. It's amazing some of the US teams can even spend the the cap, when the lowly Oilers has a significant part of their revenues coming from luxury suites and these teams can't even match that with general admission ($22.9million for Carolina general admission).
http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/...les-by-25.html
Just wanted to point out, from your own link (The suite life at rexall place) - I think this is an important point:

While there are 66 Executive Suites in Rexall Place, only three are available for rent on an individual basis; two Level 6 Suites and one on the Main Concourse.

This suggests the vast majority of Suites are already spoken for and we have no idea what is being charged for them. Of course someone purchasing a suite over the course of a full season (or 3, 5, or 10 seasons as these things often go) would likely be getting a significant discount over the 10k and 5k price ranges - I say this because A) I don't think that there are a high number of corporations/individuals shelling out a half a million dollars a year for a suite, and B) limiting the # of suites available on any given basis to three would of course drive demand up significantly.

I suspect it is highly possible that the price point of those 3 available suites is in no way related to the price points of the other 63 suites.

Additionally, there are of course going to be suites earmarked for owners/family, press, players family, and major sponsors.

My only point is that - once again, we have no idea what the true value of the suites is to the Oilers, and I'm not sure your numbers are any more legitimate then the original poster's.


Last edited by jessebelanger: 01-27-2011 at 10:02 AM.
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01-27-2011, 10:22 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessebelanger View Post
Just wanted to point out, from your own link (The suite life at rexall place) - I think this is an important point:

While there are 66 Executive Suites in Rexall Place, only three are available for rent on an individual basis; two Level 6 Suites and one on the Main Concourse.

This suggests the vast majority of Suites are already spoken for and we have no idea what is being charged for them. Of course someone purchasing a suite over the course of a full season (or 3, 5, or 10 seasons as these things often go) would likely be getting a significant discount over the 10k and 5k price ranges - I say this because A) I don't think that there are a high number of corporations/individuals shelling out a half a million dollars a year for a suite, and B) limiting the # of suites available on any given basis to three would of course drive demand up significantly.

I suspect it is highly possible that the price point of those 3 available suites is in no way related to the price points of the other 63 suites.

Additionally, there are of course going to be suites earmarked for owners/family, press, players family, and major sponsors.

My only point is that - once again, we have no idea what the true value of the suites is to the Oilers, and I'm not sure your numbers are any more legitimate then the original poster's.


I made the same point in my original calculations to get to $14M. As you say, we have no idea how much long term suite holders are paying. So what I did was calculated the average discount given to STH's over retail ticket prices and applied this to the retail numbers on the suites. This discount would put the $24-25M that Metzen has as his low end in line with my numbers. And of course, my numbers do not include the 20% increase that Metzen speaks of which I assume reflects the price for this year.

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01-27-2011, 10:27 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I made the same point in my original calculations to get to $14M. As you say, we have no idea how much long term suite holders are paying. So what I did was calculated the average discount given to STH's over retail ticket prices and applied this to the retail numbers on the suites. This discount would put the $24-25M that Metzen has as his low end in line with my numbers. And of course, my numbers do not include the 20% increase that Metzen speaks of which I assume reflects the price for this year.
It would appear that my "rosy" numbers weren't so rosy after all.


It would be nice to get an idea of what they get from TV.

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01-27-2011, 10:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It would appear that my "rosy" numbers weren't so rosy after all.


It would be nice to get an idea of what they get from TV.
It would be nice to see ALL of these numbers...but alas...

I am sure that whatever contract the Oilers do have in place, includes a suite of some fashion for the Sportsnet execs. There goes another 200-400k from the calculation :p

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01-27-2011, 10:52 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jessebelanger View Post
I suspect it is highly possible that the price point of those 3 available suites is in no way related to the price points of the other 63 suites.
Please note in the "Suite Life" article it states the cost of what some business's paid and it matches almost exactly up with the rental price (~2% off the price actually --- $4898/game vs. $5000). Many businesses go in together to purchase the lower bowl concourse... there isn't many "individual" companies owning a whole box, but several going together....

I believe these pricing to be very close to accurate. A 50% discount on individual season seat holders is one thing... The Oiler's know that is tough for an individual to buy. You can't write that off, etc. But as a company? You don't get much of a discount off of retail for box suites. The Oiler community can afford it. Maybe things would change if the economy tanked harder in Edmonton, but it hasn't. Companies and people have stepped up to buy them. I don't know how much of a discount long term box owners pay, but I doubt they get a significantly better deal then new purchasers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessebelanger View Post
Additionally, there are of course going to be suites earmarked for owners/family, press, players family, and major sponsors.

My only point is that - once again, we have no idea what the true value of the suites is to the Oilers, and I'm not sure your numbers are any more legitimate then the original poster's.
From what I understand, the rental suites *are* the ones used by owners, press, player's families, injured players, etc.

If you rent one of those suites you may get to hang with them.

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01-27-2011, 11:42 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metzen View Post
Please note in the "Suite Life" article it states the cost of what some business's paid and it matches almost exactly up with the rental price (~2% off the price actually --- $4898/game vs. $5000). Many businesses go in together to purchase the lower bowl concourse... there isn't many "individual" companies owning a whole box, but several going together....

I believe these pricing to be very close to accurate. A 50% discount on individual season seat holders is one thing... The Oiler's know that is tough for an individual to buy. You can't write that off, etc. But as a company? You don't get much of a discount off of retail for box suites. The Oiler community can afford it. Maybe things would change if the economy tanked harder in Edmonton, but it hasn't. Companies and people have stepped up to buy them. I don't know how much of a discount long term box owners pay, but I doubt they get a significantly better deal then new purchasers.



From what I understand, the rental suites *are* the ones used by owners, press, player's families, injured players, etc.

If you rent one of those suites you may get to hang with them.
The suite is described as a main concourse suite. These are the largest and most expensive of the suites. The retail on these is $10K. It would appear at at $200K there is an even larger discount in place than my numbers suggested. The atricle lists other suites at $120K per year and the sky boxes at $65K per year. You need an average of roughly $200K on the 67 suites to make my number of $14M. So even with some increases since 2005 you need to go a long way to make it to your number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It would appear that my "rosy" numbers weren't so rosy after all.


It would be nice to get an idea of what they get from TV.
Let's see if Metzen's boat actually floats before we start the cruise!

And for the record, I think the TV numbers might be up quite a bit this year with the new Sportsnet deal, but do Inot have details, so you are likley getting closer.


Last edited by Fourier: 01-27-2011 at 12:05 PM.
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01-28-2011, 12:47 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
The suite is described as a main concourse suite.
In the article they do NOT talk about the price of the main concourse suites. They talk about the Sky Suites and "5th Level" suites... The two "cheapest" options. I believe the prices described in this article is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
These are the largest and most expensive of the suites. The retail on these is $10K. It would appear at at $200K there is an even larger discount in place than my numbers suggested. The atricle lists other suites at $120K per year and the sky boxes at $65K per year. You need an average of roughly $200K on the 67 suites to make my number of $14M. So even with some increases since 2005 you need to go a long way to make it to your number.
You're assumptions are off

If you assume 5th Level and Sky Suites are the same (~$130,000) then you MUST average more than that for Main Concourse to hit your "lowly" target of $14M... If you assume the Sky Suites are worth more then your argument about the cost in the article is wrong
(16+11)*130K=3.51M (upper suites) 39 main concourse suites / 12.49M = $320,000.............................

The article explictly states $120K for a "5th level" suites and one firm shares suites with another firm for "$65K" (each.. though not stated explicitly), which are obviously 5th level suites as well....

Unless it goes $120,000 5th level, $130,000 Skybox, $200,000 main concourse... Based on the rental prices/and other factors, this assumption is wrong, if not for the simple reason that your $200K average is not possible if 27 suites are < $200k and the 39 "main concourse" suites are ~$200,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Let's see if Metzen's boat actually floats before we start the cruise!

And for the record, I think the TV numbers might be up quite a bit this year with the new Sportsnet deal, but do Inot have details, so you are likley getting closer.
Which is more realistic... The Oiler's giving a huge discount or charging market value?

Quotes from the article regarding price:
Quote:
..."When we first contemplated getting one five years ago, we really wondered if (the $200,000) was worth it. We were considered a small company. It was a big step for us," O'Flynn said, wincing as the Oil fail to convert on one of 10 first-period shots...

... As the Oilers and Sharks trade goals during a tentative second period, Kevin Love, president of Royal Camp Services, holds court with family, staff and clients in his company's $120,000-a-year, custom-designed "5th Level" suite...

...Denmar, big into oilfield construction and land developing and the Ferbey rink's first-ever sponsor, shares the skybox with an Edmonton accounting firm for $65,000 a year...
[EDIT] Part of the issue with this article is it states that the "Skybox" Denmar shares is worth $65K... This terminology shouldn't be confused the "Sky Suites"... The actual name for the suites below "5th Level" but above "Main Concourse".


Last edited by Metzen: 01-28-2011 at 02:12 AM.
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04-06-2011, 01:30 PM
  #65
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Some more revenue information about the Oilers to share:

Quote:
The City allows both the Oilers and Northlands to collect revenues generated in Rexall Place through admission surcharge bylaw C10841. All tickets for events at Rexall Place aresubject to the ticket surcharge. Northlands collect the revenues for all non hockey events and the Oilers retain revenues for Oiler Hockey related events. The admission surcharge breaks down as follows:
a) No Primary Admission Surcharge shall be charged for Tickets with a Ticket Price of lessthan seven ($7.00) dollars;
b) two dollars ($2.00) shall be charged for every Ticket with a Ticket Price between seven($7.00) dollars and twenty eight dollars ($28.00) dollars; and (S.2, Bylaw No. 11336,September 24, 1996)
c) Seven (7%) percent of every Ticket with a Ticket Price over twenty eight dollars ($28.00)shall be charged.
(S.3, Bylaw No. 11336, September 24, 1996)

There is also a Supplemental Coliseum Admission Surcharge of $.25 per ticket. In 2009, Northlands generated $2,400,000 from the admissions surcharge. We have estimated $4,100,000 from the admissions surcharge for the Oilers
This means the arena generates ~36% of it's ticket revenues from non-hockey related events and 64% for NHL related events. If the Oiler's collected money from the non-HRR side its revenues would increase at least that much (using Fugu's initial post of ~$92M revenues could then be ~$143M).

Continuing on, the Oilers collect an estimated $4.1M from ticket surcharges that isn't accounted in any calculations so far.

Using the estimated $4.1M number, we can break down the average ticket price. If we go by the Forbe's value of $55 (aka, full 7% surcharge collected), the actual ticket price should be ~$51.40 (55/1.07) meaning the surcharge generates the Oiler's $3.60 per ticket. In order to collect $4.1M in surcharges the Oilers need to sell 1,138,889 tickets in a season. Divided by 44 (41+3preseason) home games equals 25,883 tickets per game. Obviously this number is way off. In order to get down to the 16384 seats that Rexall can have, the average ticket price must be 63% higher.

At an average ticket price of $87.30, $5.71 is the surcharge fee (87.30/1.07). At $5.71/ticket * 16384 /game * 44 games = $4.1M

Assuming the surcharge isn't accounted in the Forbes numbers, 55*1.07 = 58.85 - 55 = $3.85 surcharge per ticket. Still, faaaaar under the $5.71 required to generate the required $4.1M/season surcharge revenues.

This makes some sense to me as I sat 2nd row from the top of the arena, Oiler net side and the face value on the ticket was $70 (against Buffalo). Those had to have been among the cheapest seats outside of the standing room only seating (only two rows above me).

Anyways, at a average ticket price of $87.30 * 16384 * 44 games == $62,934,220 in ticket revenue per season.


Last edited by Metzen: 04-06-2011 at 01:44 PM. Reason: updated to include preseason in calculations
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01-05-2012, 12:25 PM
  #66
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More Information about revenue and how it relates to the Oiler's here.


Code:
Team	Ticket $/game 2010-11, MM$	Ticket Revenue 2010-11, MM$	Ticket $/game 2007-08, MM$	Ticket Revenue 2007-08, MM$
MTL	$2.00	$82.00	$1.70	$69.70
TOR	$2.00	$82.00	$1.90	$77.90
VAN	$1.70	$69.70	$1.40	$57.40
NYR	$1.60	$65.60	$1.30	$53.30
CGY	$1.50	$61.50	$1.30	$53.30
EDM	$1.30	$53.30	$1.20	$49.20
CHI	$1.10	$45.10	$0.50	$20.50
PIT	$1.10	$45.10	$0.80	$32.80
BOS	$1.10	$45.10	$0.80	$32.80
SJS	$1.10	$45.10	$0.95	$38.95
DET	$1.10	$45.10	$1.00	$41.00
PHI	$1.10	$45.10	$1.00	$41.00
OTT	$1.10	$45.10	$1.20	$49.20
WSH	$1.00	$41.00	$0.55	$22.55
MIN	$1.00	$41.00	$1.10	$45.10
NHL	$0.96	$39.36	$0.91	$37.38
BUF	$0.80	$32.80	$0.75	$30.75
LAK	$0.75	$30.75	$0.65	$26.65
ANA	$0.75	$30.75	$0.90	$36.90
COL	$0.75	$30.75	$1.00	$41.00
NJD	$0.70	$28.70	$0.85	$34.85
CAR	$0.66	$27.06	$0.70	$28.70
CBJ	$0.66	$27.06	$0.80	$32.80
DAL	$0.66	$27.06	$0.95	$38.95
STL	$0.65	$26.65	$0.60	$24.60
NSH	$0.58	$23.58	$0.60	$24.60
FLA	$0.46	$18.86	$0.50	$20.50
TBL	$0.44	$18.04	$0.80	$32.80
PHX	$0.42	$17.22	$0.45	$18.45
NYI	$0.39	$16.07	$0.55	$22.55
ATL	$0.33	$13.53	$0.55	$22.55
According to the leaked report, Edmonton made $53.3M in revenue. The $4.1M ticket surcharge estimate was off by $400K

The Oiler's revenue total implies an average ticket price of $73.51. The ticket surcharge they collect on top must be in the neighbourhood of $5.14/game (($73.51*1.07)-$73.51) for an additional $3.7M. Interesting to look at these numbers from Katz perspective and see Calgary that far ahead. With a new arena he will probably make at least that much. I also considered that preseason was taken into account when looking at these revenue numbers, or else the per-ticket price is slightly higher.

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01-05-2012, 12:54 PM
  #67
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NAMING RIGHTS

The Oilers do not control the arena. This is in fact a cost line item for Katz, rather than a revenue item. Tyler insisted that EDM gets the revenue for this. Even assuming this were true (and the Northlands website was not helpful on this), this is still a payment from a Katz wholly-owned sister company (Rexall). While I was inclined to allow a huge overestimate of $5M for this, I think this was overly generous, since it is really nothing more than a payment from a wholly-owned subsidiary to the team.

Naming Rights Revenue = $0
This is the one part of the analysis that isn’t working for me. As I’m sure you know money like that isn’t just handed out without a solid legal and (hopefully) business reason. So either the Oilers do have a say in this or they don’t and don’t get the money. I can see where they would, as they are the anchor tenant and any advertising benefits (the idea behind naming rights) are pretty well tied to that arena being shown 41 times a year on TV somewhere. Ask yourself this, too. Would the Oilers be okay if a controversial suitor ponied up $5mm a year to get the naming rights? Something tells me they wouldn’t and that they do have the final say in such matters because it could adversely affect the team and the league.

As to it just being a payment from one subsidiary to another, that ignores the reality that that other subsidiary (Rexall) is gaining an economic benefit as a result of the agreement. Namely, good advertising. Double entry accounting says it can’t be a cost of business (expense) on one set of books without it being revenue somewhere else. If Northlands hadn’t been available, Rexall may have bought the naming rights to some other arena. The fact that they could do it in their own backyard was a happy coincidence.

Other than that it looks like a pretty good analysis.

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01-05-2012, 01:25 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metzen View Post
More Information about revenue and how it relates to the Oiler's here.

EDM $1.30 $53.30 $1.20 $49.20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Per Bank of Canada, CAD value in USD (1 Jul 07 - 30 Jun 08):
2008: 0.99
2009: 0.86
2010: 0.95

Base is USD $1.2m/gm for 07/08 season, thus in CAD: $1.212m
(we'll say it's the same for this exercise then)

Assuming no price increase, we're roughly between $1.04-1.14m for the next two years. I think that's not realistic though, so let's say 5-10%, I'll use 7% to make my life easy (although I'm checking around to get a real figure):

2009:
CA$1.28m (US$1.1m)

2010:
CA$1.37m (US$1.3m)
Admissions revenue $1.3m x 44 = $57.3m

I believe that I was exactly on the mark if you use 41 regular season home dates.
41 games x $1.3 million/game = $53.3 MM

I added 3 pre-season games to try to get closer to their actual HRR overall.



@Stannis. He was too low.

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01-05-2012, 01:35 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metzen View Post
Interesting to look at these numbers from Katz perspective and see Calgary that far ahead.
Calgary has a significantly better corporate base and a more affluent population as a result. The Flames should be able to at least match (if not, dare I say, surpass) the Canucks with an arena designed to maximize that corporate base rather than one that was retro-fitted for it. Wont be good for the average fan but there's a fortune to be made.

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