International Ranking "divisions"

[saskriders]

Just wondering what people think you always hear about the "big seven" (Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia) but what would other groups be where anyone could beat anyone and it would not be an upset these are my thoughts

Div 1 Big Seven
Canada
USA
Russia
Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic
Slovakia

Div 2
Switzerland
Latvia
Belarus
Germany
(Possibly Kazakhstan if not I would say they are close)

Div 3 (not so sure about this)
Norway
Denmark
Austria
France

I dont know enough to go any lower

[Gobo]

Just to make the divisions equal sized:

Division 1
Canada
USA
Russia
Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic


Division 2
Slovakia
Czech Republic
Latvia
Belarus
Germany

Division 3
Norway
Kazhakstan
Denmark
Austria
Switzerland

[adamkex]

Originally Posted by Gobo

Just to make the divisions equal sized:

Division 1
Canada
USA
Russia
Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic


Division 2
Slovakia
Czech Republic
Latvia
Belarus
Germany

Division 3
Norway
Kazhakstan
Denmark
Austria
Switzerland

Czeck Republic twice?

[Noma]

With six team divisions I'd say it would be like this:

Division 1
Canada
Russia
Sweden
USA
Finland
Czech Republic

Division 2
Slovakia
Switzerland
Germany
Latvia
Belarus
Denmark

Division 3
Norway
Austria
Ukraine
Kazakhstan
France
Italy

[IIHFjerseycollector]

Originally Posted by Noma

With six team divisions I'd say it would be like this:

Division 1
Canada
Russia
Sweden
USA
Finland
Czech Republic

Division 2
Slovakia
Switzerland
Germany
Latvia
Belarus
Denmark

Division 3
Norway
Austria
Ukraine
Kazakhstan
France
Italy

this person is 100% correct.

[slovakiasnextone]

Originally Posted by IIHFjerseycollector

this person is 100% correct.

I´m not sure about 100%. I really don´t see Norway as inferior compared to the Division 2 teams and they are light years ahead of most teams in Div 3. All of the other teams there are always between the elite and Div 1 of the IHWC while Norway has been playing in elite division constantly since 2006 now and they have finished in Top 9 in two of the last three tournaments (8th in 08 and 9th in 10). Additionally let´s not forget that they also qualified for the Olympics and were between the 12 teams there. They might not have been the best team there, but then again Belarus for example as another team from the Div. 2 who has struggled mightily in the OGs.
Sure, Denmark was missing their NHL/AHL players, but I´d say this told sth about Norway´s depth in Europe. And I´m really not trying to say that Denmark is inferior to Norway, rather than they are almost at the same niveau.
Additionally- about Slovakia- here it still matters whether we´re talking about the teams with all their players available- I don´t want to sound like a homer, but when you have a team with Chára, Hossa, Gáborík, Halák and Višňovský I don´t think you can really say that they are at the same niveau as the other teams in this category. The other teams still lack the absolute elite players and at this point Slovakia has at leats two in Chára and Marián Hossa. Many of these players might not be around for much longer for the NT, but when we´re talking about right now I think this point still matters.

Also, I´d think twice about puting Ukraine into Div.3, sure they were good once, but today they would probably already be in Div. 4 if there was one in that ranking, IMO in 5 years or som they might not even play Div 1 IHWC hockey. I think Slovenia and Hungary as well are ahead of them as of now.

[IIHFjerseycollector]

Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone

I´m not sure about 100%. I really don´t see Norway as inferior compared to the Division 2 teams and they are light years ahead of most teams in Div 3. All of the other teams there are always between the elite and Div 1 of the IHWC while Norway has been playing in elite division constantly since 2006 now and they have finished in Top 9 in two of the last three tournaments (8th in 08 and 9th in 10). Additionally let´s not forget that they also qualified for the Olympics and were between the 12 teams there. They might not have been the best team there, but then again Belarus for example as another team from the Div. 2 who has struggled mightily in the OGs.
Sure, Denmark was missing their NHL/AHL players, but I´d say this told sth about Norway´s depth in Europe. And I´m really not trying to say that Denmark is inferior to Norway, rather than they are almost at the same niveau.
Additionally- about Slovakia- here it still matters whether we´re talking about the teams with all their players available- I don´t want to sound like a homer, but when you have a team with Chára, Hossa, Gáborík, Halák and Višňovský I don´t think you can really say that they are at the same niveau as the other teams in this category. The other teams still lack the absolute elite players and at this point Slovakia has at leats two in Chára and Marián Hossa. Many of these players might not be around for much longer for the NT, but when we´re talking about right now I think this point still matters.

Also, I´d think twice about puting Ukraine into Div.3, sure they were good once, but today they would probably already be in Div. 4 if there was one in that ranking, IMO in 5 years or som they might not even play Div 1 IHWC hockey. I think Slovenia and Hungary as well are ahead of them as of now.

Norway has certainly made big strides in the past 5 years. they might squeak into division 2 level teams on occasion, but I think any division 3 team could beat them on any given day..

I agree about Ukraine. They are on a hard downslope and their future doesnt look promising( according to what ive read and seen ) But we must take into account the past few years as consideration. Looking forward I think Ukraine drops a division and Slovenia takes their spot..

[slovakiasnextone]

Originally Posted by IIHFjerseycollector

Norway has certainly made big strides in the past 5 years. they might squeak into division 2 level teams on occasion, but I think any division 3 team could beat them on any given day..

I agree about Ukraine. They are on a hard downslope and their future doesnt look promising( according to what ive read and seen ) But we must take into account the past few years as consideration. Looking forward I think Ukraine drops a division and Slovenia takes their spot..

Originally Posted by IIHFjerseycollector

Norway has certainly made big strides in the past 5 years. they might squeak into division 2 level teams on occasion, but I think any division 3 team could beat them on any given day..

I agree about Ukraine. They are on a hard downslope and their future doesnt look promising( according to what ive read and seen ) But we must take into account the past few years as consideration. Looking forward I think Ukraine drops a division and Slovenia takes their spot..

I still disagree on both points.

IMO you say that Norway has made the strides in the past few years and they did- but the same could be said about Denmark- compared to Norway they have been constantly playing in elite division only one year longer than the Norwegians since 2004 and they have had worse finishes than Norway 3 times out of 5 tournaments and only finished in Top 9 once- 8th in 10´. Also compared to Norway, Denmark did not qualify for the Olympics game and they did beat out Denmark to get there if I remember it right. Additionally they also had a better finish there than two other Div 2 ranked teams in this list- Germany and Latvia. With all respect saying that Norway would be beaten by any of the Div. 3 teams is just an assumption you make and I think this should be based on actual results at tournaments rather than your personal assumptions.

So, let´s look at some results from the last OG and last four IHWCs.

Olympics game qualification
Denmark- France 1-2 OT
Denmark- Kazakhstan 3-2

Norway-Kazakhstan 2-1
France-Norway 2-3

Norway- Denmark 5-3

2010 Olympics games
Canada- Norway 8-0
United States- Norway 6-1
Norway- Switzerland 4-5 OT

Slovakia- Norway 4-3

2006 IIHF WHC
Group stage
Norway- Denmark 6-3
United States- Norway 3-1
Denmark- Canada 3-5
United States- Denmark 3-0
Canada- Norway 7-1

Relegation round
Slovenia- Denmark 3-3
Italy- Denmark 0-5
Denmark- Kazakhstan 3-2

Qualyfying round
Czech republic- Norway 3-1
Norway- Finland 0-3
Latvia- Norway 4-2

2007 IIHF WHC
Group stage
Slovakia- Norway 3-0
Canada- Norway 4-2
Norway- Germany 3-5

Russia- Denmark 9-1
Finland- Denmark 6-2
Denmark- Ukraine 4-3

Qualyfying round
Denmark- Sweden 2-5
Switzerland- Denmark 4-2
Italy- Denmark 2-5

Relegation round
Austria- Norway 2-3 OT
Ukraine- Norway 3-2
Norway- Latvia 7-4

2008 IIHF WHC
Group stage
Slovakia- Norway 5-1
Finland- Norway 3-2 OT
Norway- Germany 3-2

Denmark- Czech republic 2-5
Italy- Denmark 2-6
Russia- Denmark 4-1

Qualifying round
Sweden- Denmark 8-1
Denmark- Switzerland 2-7
Belarus- Denmark 2-3OT


Canada- Norway 2-1
Norway- Latvia 1-4
United States- Norway 9-1

Play-off round
Norway- Canada 2-8

2009 IIHF WHC
Group stage
Norway- Finland 0-5
Czech republic- Denmark 5-0
Czech republic- Norway 5-2
Finland- Denmark 5-1
Denmark- Norway 4-5 OT

Group stage
Belarus- Norway 3-2OT
Norway- Canada 1-5
Slovakia- Norway 3-2OT

Relegation round
Germany- Denmark 1-3
Hungary- Denmark 1-5
Denmark- Austria 5-2

2010 IIHF WHC
Group stage
Norway- Sweden 2-5
Czech republic- Norway 2-3
France- Norway 1-5

Finland- Denmark 1-4
United States- Denmark 1-2OT
Denmark- Germany 1-3

Qualifying round
Slovakia- Denmark 0-6
Denmark- Russia 1-6
Belarus- Denmark 2-1

Canada-Norway 12-1
Latvia-Norway 5-0
Norway- Switzerland 3-2

Play-off round
Sweden- Denmark 4-2

Does it seem to you that Norway got beaten by the Div 3 teams on any given day? Quite the contrary- IMO they have taken a point from the Div1 and Div2 ranked teams on 11 occassions if I´m counting right- which also includes wins over Denmark in all the games they played. In the last four years they only lost one point to any of those teams- to Asutria when they won in OT. Compared to that Denmark has lost points to the Div3 teams on 5 occassions- that is if you include the three losses to Norway, while they also have only gotten points from the Div1 and other Div2 teams on 4 occasssions. IMO everyone remembers Denmark because of the way they played at the 2010 Worlds, but Norway has been there putting up the results longer and more consistantly than Denmark has- Norway in no way belongs to the level of France, Italy, Kazakhstan, Austria and yet alone Ukraine. The actual results really don´t support your claim.

Regarding Ukraine, yes, this is a discussion about today, however I believe I can prove that Ukraine has not outperformed Slovenia or even Hungary in the past few years except for one time- the 2010 Olympics qualifications.
In the 2010 OG qualification Ukraine finished 2nd behind only Latvia, while Hungary finished 4th in the same group and Slovenia finished 4th in it´s group with two OTLs.

At the 2010 Div I Worlds Ukraine placed 2nd in it´s group losing to Austria. Slovenia on the other hand has qualyfied for the 2011 elite division beating out Hungary. It seems that Slovenia comes as a winner out of this one, while Hungary has done at least as good as Ukraine.

At the 2009 Div I Worlds Slovenia finished 2nd behind Kazkhstan with 12pts, while Ukraien finished 2nd behind Italy with 11. Hungary played at the elite division Worlds.

At the 2008 Div I Worlds Ukraine finished 2nd behind Hungary trailing them by 4 points, except for the loss against Hungary, they lost points against Japan. Slovenia played at the elite division Worlds.

At the 2007 Div I Worlds Hungary finished 2nd behind Slovenia. Ukraine played at the elite division Worlds.

At the 2006 Worlds both Slovenia and Ukraine played in elite division, Ukraine made it to the next stages thanks to beating Italy.

If we talked about Ukraine in 2006, I woudl agree with you that it´s downfall is in the future, but today in 2010 their downfall is already here- not onyl in juniors but in the menś team as well. Slovenia and Hungary today at the men´s level are at least at the same level as Ukraine. Either you demote Ukraine to a Div4 if there were one or you put this two teams up in Div3 as well.

[IIHFjerseycollector]

IMO you say that Norway has made the strides in the past few years and they did- but the same could be said about Denmark-

yes, the same could be said about Denmark, but I was talking about Norway. I agree that they are very similar teams, perhaps Norway should be bumped up to the same group, and Denmark demoted for the time being? If Denmark could ever get its full roster together I think they can be a very strong Div 2 team.


With all respect saying that Norway would be beaten by any of the Div. 3 teams is just an assumption you make and I think this should be based on actual results at tournaments rather than your personal assumptions.
Its true, it is a personal assumption.

[slovakiasnextone]

Originally Posted by IIHFjerseycollector

IMO you say that Norway has made the strides in the past few years and they did- but the same could be said about Denmark-

yes, the same could be said about Denmark, but I was talking about Norway. I agree that they are very similar teams, perhaps Norway should be bumped up to the same group, and Denmark demoted for the time being? If Denmark could ever get its full roster together I think they can be a very strong Div 2 team.


With all respect saying that Norway would be beaten by any of the Div. 3 teams is just an assumption you make and I think this should be based on actual results at tournaments rather than your personal assumptions.
Its true, it is a personal assumption.

Denmark being a strong Div2 team is once again just an assumption that we have no proof to support (yet). Not that I disagree with it.

I did by no means mean that Denmark should be bumped down, I just used it as an example of Norway being at the same level as the teams in Div2, I picked Denmark because they are most similar with Norway, but had I chosen Latvia or Belarus for example (only that they have been at this level for longer than the Danes and Norwegians) the result would be most probably similar. IMO it´s not so long that Germany actually played some Division I hockey and despite their great finish last year they should have been relegated back in 09- that´s just an another example.

The point is that Norway beats any of the Div3 teams hands down and they would be considered favourites in games against these teams.

I don´t believe Norway are any better than Denmark, but their advantage over Denmark is that their team has been strongly European based- actually most teams in the Div2 groups have this advantage- except fro Denmark, Slovakia and perhaps Switzerland now that many of their players have moved to NA recently and just maybe Germany as well.

I just think we shouldn´t separate two teams of about the same level to different divisions just so that we have the same number of teams in each.

[zamo86]

Originally Posted by Noma

With six team divisions I'd say it would be like this:

Division 1
Canada
Russia
Sweden
USA
Finland
Czech Republic

Division 2
Slovakia
Switzerland
Germany
Latvia
Belarus
Denmark

Division 3
Norway
Austria
Ukraine
Kazakhstan
France
Italy

I see nobody in this topic even mentioned Slovenia as a Division 3 country. Doesnt matter if they are better than Italy, France, Ukraine and at least equall with Kazahstan, Austria, Norway. Ok, I would say Norway is probably better but cant say that about the rest, even though if I am biased.

BTW: I like Denmark program and progress in the recent years, but dont think they are up there in DivII yet. Certainly (togheter with Norway) somewhere in between.