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Bill Guerin to be a training camp invite with Flyers

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Old
09-13-2010, 08:12 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Comrie put up goals at a similar pace to Guerin last year despite far fewer minutes on a far worse team with far worse linemates. Hell, Tyler Kennedy produced at a better ES pace than Guerin last year.

I'm not worried about finding someone else to force-feed prime ES and PP minutes to for goals. Whether that's Comrie, Kennedy, Tangradi, or whoever, getting rid of Guerin is addition by subtraction. And if you think this is somehow a Philly thing, feel free to check back for my opinions on Guerin before he was even a gleam in Holmgren's eye.
I don't really care what other people thought of him. I've supported the idea of bringing in Guerin as our 9th from day one.

I know full well what role he will provide and what he won't do. I'm also fully aware of his limitations at this point in his career.

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09-13-2010, 08:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't really care what other people thought of him. I've supported the idea of bringing in Guerin as our 9th from day one.

I know full well what role he will provide and what he won't do. I'm also fully aware of his limitations at this point in his career.
Tell you what. Hope he signs with Philly, and you enjoy the show as much as I will.

Then we can revisit this thread in a few months and reminisce.

My condolences, Shadow Flyer.

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09-13-2010, 08:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Oh there will probably be moaning and complaining. No question on that front.
I save my best complaining for before we make the mistake of adding a player we don't need...

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That said, I think it's one thing to complain and a completely other thing to realize that he is our best option. Guerin is our 9th best offensive weapon. We are not the Penguins, who would be hiring him to be our 5th.
No, YOU think he's the best option. I disagree, and for some reason, you can't just accept that and move on.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Who else would be put there? Nodl? He would be nice, but he doesn't have the offensive capabilities. Powe? He has bricks for hands. Carcillo? He's not all that great. Go back in time to re-sign Asham? To provide better forechecking and worse hands? Nah. Maroon? Probably the closest, but he'd get left behind the play to.
Nold isn't an NHL player, so obviously he isn't an option. I've already told you that I believe Powe fits our style better, and that we don't need the few extra goals Guerin would provide. This team scores enough. Yes, Carcillo is a better fit for this team. You do realize that not all top-9 forwards have to be offensive, right? And yea, if I could go back in time, I'd sign Asham, not to mention fix a few other **** ups by our brilliant GM. Maroon isn't an option yet, if he ever even turns into a viable option. He's not ready.

I'd take Carcillo or Powe over Guerin, and I've already told you this, but apparently you wanted me to repeat it. Or is this one of those "I need to win an internet argument" contests that inevitably no one ever wins?

Fun Fact: Carcillo scored more even strength goals last season than Guerin, and he did it without playing alongside Crosby.

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When there's really no better options, who are we to complain?
When those "better options" aren't really better options?


Last edited by Shadow Flyer: 09-13-2010 at 08:28 PM.
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Old
09-13-2010, 08:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
My condolences, Shadow Flyer.
You can make me feel better by trading Shero for Holmgren...

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09-13-2010, 08:22 PM
  #55
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If he's not up to snuff, he won't make the team. If anything, it will light a fire under everyone's ass to compete. That's a healthy thing for a team, to realize that if they don't pull their weight and put in 100%, they can be replaced.

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09-13-2010, 08:28 PM
  #56
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I wouldn't have minded his scoring issues as much if he showed a little more tenacity out there instead of aimlessly drifting around the offensive zone. Crosby and Kunitz would establish a nice cycle, and Guerin was pretty much a non-participant. That kind of stuff kills the momentum of any line he's going to be on, that and his penchant for constantly being offsides. He wasn't physical, he wasn't much of a net front presence, and his shot, while still accurate, takes forever to get off now.

He's a terrific guy and I'm eternally grateful for what he provided during the Cup run, but I think he's all but finished.

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09-13-2010, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
You can make me feel better by trading Shero for Holmgren...
No thanks. The last time a Shero joined forces with the Flyers, the Pens didn't have much fun for a long time.

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09-13-2010, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Tell you what. Hope he signs with Philly, and you enjoy the show as much as I will.

Then we can revisit this thread in a few months and reminisce.

My condolences, Shadow Flyer.
Guerin might not be the best player out there right now, but like we have continuously said, who else fits that role on the team right now as the 9th scorer? Carcillo? Powe? Shelly? These guys can not play a top 9 "on a scoring line" role or they are way over their heads. Carcillo/Powe/Shelly next to Richie is a disaster, so I think we will take our chances to see if Guerin does well during camp to get a contract. He isnt even signed with us yet, so if he sucks and he doesnt move, Lavy wont take his bs and wont play him. That's why I love the Flyers new coach.

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09-13-2010, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Guerin might not be the best player out there right now, but like we have continuously said, who else fits that role on the team right now as the 9th scorer? Carcillo? Powe? Shelly? These guys can not play a top 9 role or they are way over their heads.
Carcillo scored more even strength goals than Guerin last year, playing far few minutes and not playing alongside Crosby.

How, exactly, is Guerin a better option?

I think people just peg guys to be a certain type of player, and don't look at things like what I posted above. Yea, Guerin is a better PP option, but we don't have PP problems. Yea, he's more of a leader, but we don't have enough of those?

The Guerin name looks prettier on paper. That's it, and that's all.

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09-13-2010, 08:32 PM
  #60
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Typical flyers move though, getting a player past his prime instead of in or close to it. Boy that list would be huge: roenick, amonte, beezer, coffey, zhamnov, malakov, otto, forsberg, burke just off the top of my head.

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09-13-2010, 08:34 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Carcillo scored more even strength goals than Guerin last year, playing far few minutes and not playing alongside Crosby.

How, exactly, is Guerin a better option?
Carcillo scored as many even strength goals as Chris Kunitz did, would you take Carcillo over Kunitz also? And he scored 1 more ES goal then Guerin did...1


Carcillo isnt a top 9 player, especially on a scoring line. Carcillo wont be able to keep up with Giroux and Richards and will kill that line... Here's hoping a rookie takes that spot. Doubt it but thats all you can hope for. We play 3 scoring lines.

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09-13-2010, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No thanks. The last time a Shero joined forces with the Flyers, the Pens didn't have much fun for a long time.
Ahh, those were the days!

Best of luck to you guys this season. Hopefully we can actually win more than we lose against Pitt for a change. You guys have owned us the last 4 years (Crosby in particular).

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09-13-2010, 08:37 PM
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Good for Bill G.

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09-13-2010, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Carcillo scored as many even strength goals as Chris Kunitz did, would you take Carcillo over Kunitz also? And he scored 1 more ES goal then Guerin did...1
Hey, if you're gonna start saying guys like Carcillo don't belong in the top-9, and guys like Guerin do, then you might wanna have some proof that Guerin is a better offensive option, like ya know, he can score more goals? Especially getting far more minutes alongside the best player in the world?

And yea, you might wanna check out how many games Kunitz missed last year. May have something to do with his lack of goals.

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09-13-2010, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Guerin might not be the best player out there right now, but like we have continuously said, who else fits that role on the team right now as the 9th scorer? Carcillo? Powe? Shelly? These guys can not play a top 9 "on a scoring line" role or they are way over their heads. Carcillo/Powe/Shelly next to Richie is a disaster, so I think we will take our chances to see if Guerin does well during camp to get a contract. He isnt even signed with us yet, so if he sucks and he doesnt move, Lavy wont take his bs and wont play him. That's why I love the Flyers new coach.
I'm of the opinion that no player in a team's bottom 6 should be a slow-footed scorer (and I use that term loosely) who has little inclination to forecheck, backcheck, or battle in general.

He isn't fast, tenacious, responsible, or physical enough to play an energy or checking line role, and he scores like a 3rd liner at even-strength. The Pens got better when Shero first came in and excised that sort of bottom 6er from the team.

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09-13-2010, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Hey, if you're gonna start saying guys like Carcillo don't belong in the top-9, and guys like Guerin do, then you might wanna have some proof that Guerin is a better offensive option, like ya know, he can score more goals? Especially getting far more minutes alongside the best player in the world?

And yea, you might wanna check out how many games Kunitz missed last year. May have something to do with his lack of goals.
Whatever man. Most of the consensious is that Carcillo isnt a top 9 forward. There are very few people that think he is. I happen to be on the side to think he isnt. I really dont care if Guerin makes the team or not, I just dont think Carcillo should be in our top 9. Carcillo is expected to do more then he can, and thats not fair to him. He is a agitater with some skill, but not enough to play on a scoring line. Its also not fair to Richards and Giroux.

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09-13-2010, 08:45 PM
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Whatever man. Most of the consensious is that Carcillo isnt a top 9 forward. There are very few people that think he is. I happen to be on the side to think he isnt. I really dont care if Guerin makes the team or not, I just dont think Carcillo should be in our top 9. Carcillo is expected to do more then he can, and thats not fair to him. He is a agitater with some skill, but not enough to play on a scoring line. Its also not fair to Richards and Giroux.
You summed up everything pretty nicely.

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09-13-2010, 08:46 PM
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As a Pens fan, if Guerin is like last year, then I'm happy he's on the Flyers.

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09-13-2010, 08:47 PM
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Ahh, those were the days!

Best of luck to you guys this season. Hopefully we can actually win more than we lose against Pitt for a change. You guys have owned us the last 4 years (Crosby in particular).
Even though I'm a die-hard Pens fan, tons of Flyers past and present are favorites of mine (Clarke, Knuble, Richards, Giroux) so I can't hate the team like I know I should.

Good luck to you this year too. Just not too much, haha.

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09-13-2010, 08:48 PM
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I don't see Guerin as a fit for the Flyers at all. They have plenty of offense.

They need two-way players and goaltending. Billy is the most useless player in the league in his own end at this point, not to mention the neutral zone. I just really doubt it works out. He has 20 goals in him, but I don't think the Flyers will benefit from him.

Good luck to him, though. He's an awesome guy.

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09-13-2010, 08:49 PM
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Whatever man. Most of the consensious is that Carcillo isnt a top 9 forward. There are very few people that think he is. I happen to be on the side to think he isnt. I really dont care if Guerin makes the team or not, I just dont think Carcillo should be in our top 9. Carcillo is expected to do more then he can, and thats not fair to him. He is a agitater with some skill, but not enough to play on a scoring line. Its also not fair to Richards and Giroux.
Hey, I'd love to have a player who's a better fit in the top-9 than Carcillo. Just don't try and feed me this garbage that somehow Guerin is that guy. The facts don't support it (neither does the eye test from having watched 60+ games of Guerin last year).

Besides leadership and PP abilities, Guerin doesn't do anything better than Carcillo. And we don't need help in either area. He's no more a top-9 forward than Carcillo at this juncture of his career, he just carries a name.

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09-13-2010, 08:55 PM
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I don't see Guerin as a fit for the Flyers at all. They have plenty of offense.
More offense is just gravy.

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Originally Posted by AK View Post
They need two-way players and goaltending.
Richards, Carter, Giroux, Betts, Laperriere, and Powe.

Even then, the only real liabilities defensively I see are Briere and Zherdev. Guerin being tacked on of course if he is signed.

Even on top of that, go ahead and tack on what is probably the best defense in the NHL.

Goaltending---there you have an argument.

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Billy is the most useless player in the league in his own end at this point, not to mention the neutral zone.
See: Randy Jones.

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I just really doubt it works out.
Then he doesn't make the team or Carcillo is bumped in his stead. No big deal.

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He has 20 goals in him, but I don't think the Flyers will benefit from him.
I doubt he gets more than 15 really. He's not getting any PP time, that's for sure.

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09-13-2010, 08:56 PM
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I have to agree with Shadow Flyer here.

Guerin is a 40 year-old who couldn't cut it on a team with the two best centers in the world and no talented wingers. That alone should set off warning lights to everyone.

The fact that Guerin would be on a 35+ contract if we signed him means that no good can realistically come out of the Flyers inviting Guerin to camp. For me, at least. Which is why I'm a little upset at this.

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Guerin might not be the best player out there right now, but like we have continuously said, who else fits that role on the team right now as the 9th scorer? Carcillo? Powe? Shelly? These guys can not play a top 9 "on a scoring line" role or they are way over their heads. Carcillo/Powe/Shelly next to Richie is a disaster, so I think we will take our chances to see if Guerin does well during camp to get a contract. He isnt even signed with us yet, so if he sucks and he doesnt move, Lavy wont take his bs and wont play him. That's why I love the Flyers new coach.
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Whatever man. Most of the consensious is that Carcillo isnt a top 9 forward. There are very few people that think he is. I happen to be on the side to think he isnt. I really dont care if Guerin makes the team or not, I just dont think Carcillo should be in our top 9. Carcillo is expected to do more then he can, and thats not fair to him. He is a agitater with some skill, but not enough to play on a scoring line. Its also not fair to Richards and Giroux.
If Homer wanted three legitimate scoring lines then he should have kept Gagne. Simple as that. He has put himself in this position willingly.

Do you ever wonder why no other team even attempts three full scoring lines? It's because it's not viable and because it's a stupid thing to attempt. There's not enough cap space and depth in the league to run three full scoring lines.

Comrie was probably our best bet to be in our top nine before he was signed. As it is, Carcillo is our best bet. Carcillo is young and managed 12 goals and 20+ points while playing half of last year on the fourth line. If he's given a constant spot in the top nine then it's not a stretch to say that he can produce 15+ goals and 30+ points, which is good enough considering the other options. Carcillo is also capable of strong two-way play, fighting, and agitating to the point where he gets PPs for us.

Carcillo, while playing half of last year on a fourth line and the whole year on a team with insane forward depth, still managed more ES goals then Guerin (who played next to the two best centers in the world).

That and the fact that Guerin is soon to be 40 years old should send off warning lights to every Flyers fan.

Hell, just look at how much Pens fans like him. If Guerin were worth keeping, then a team with pitiful wing depth (like the Pens), would have signed him by now.

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09-13-2010, 09:06 PM
  #74
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Hell, just look at how much Pens fans like him. If Guerin were worth keeping, then a team with pitiful wing depth (like the Pens), would have signed him by now.
Exactly. We're excited for Mike friggin' Comrie over here, warts and all, because at least we know he won't be an offensive black hole at even strength if he's healthy.

Stats simply can't tell casual Pens followers how many rushes and gimmes Guerin ****ed up. Would die-hards complain about a guy all season long on the off-chance that he'd go to a rival the following off-season?

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09-13-2010, 09:07 PM
  #75
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Carcillo scored as many even strength goals as Chris Kunitz did, would you take Carcillo over Kunitz also? And he scored 1 more ES goal then Guerin did...1


Carcillo isnt a top 9 player, especially on a scoring line. Carcillo wont be able to keep up with Giroux and Richards and will kill that line... Here's hoping a rookie takes that spot. Doubt it but thats all you can hope for. We play 3 scoring lines.
Kunitz was injured all season. Even the games he did play he was injured, bad argument there.

Guerin was good for about 10 games last season. Other times he was average and even more times he was down right bad. Great guy, he just has no use being on an NHL team anymore. He's slow, can't score unless he has a lot of help, can't forecheck or backcheck well.. not a good top 6 player, not a good bottom 6 player.

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