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Bill Guerin to be a training camp invite with Flyers

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Old
09-13-2010, 09:39 PM
  #76
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Chris Shafer - Your argument for Guerin is slowly going to become hatred for #13. He isn't anywhere near the player he was and is actually a problem on the ice. The guy doesn't play defense, can't accept a pass, doesn't forecheck or backcheck, and really doesn't pop goals in the net anymore, either. Don't show me stats from 2 years ago because it doesn't make your argument at all.

The way the flyers played in the postseason is how they should build their team. Adding a guy like Billy G does absolutely nothing for them. Trust me... he will drive the fan base insane.

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09-13-2010, 09:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Chris Shafer - Your argument for Guerin is slowly going to become hatred for #13.
Well, he won't be wearing #13, and really, I find it unreasonable to hate something unchangeable. Right now I feel Guerin is our best option, and I don't think that'll change. I don't consider anyone else other than rookies as possible solutions for the 9th top 9 forward.

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He isn't anywhere near the player he was and is actually a problem on the ice.
I don't think he will get nearly the minutes he got in Pittsburgh, and teams won't be keying on him nearly as much in Philadelphia. He will be far more hidden here than he was in Pittsburgh.

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The guy doesn't play defense, can't accept a pass, doesn't forecheck or backcheck, and really doesn't pop goals in the net anymore, either.
-Defense: I understand that.
-Accepting the pass: That's just insane. I will have to see him not manage to accept a pass before I believe anyone with his kind of hands has trouble with it.
-Forecheck: I understand that.
-Backcheck: See defense.
-Goal-scoring: 21 goals last year say you're lying.

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Don't show me stats from 2 years ago because it doesn't make your argument at all.
Never said it did, nor would I. Guerin is clearly a different player; an aging player.

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The way the flyers played in the postseason is how they should build their team.
Not trying to sound mean, but I'd be really shocked if you understood completely how the Flyers' built their team for the postseason, mostly because it involved primarily an elite NHL defense and an incredibly deep scoring front from the top 9.

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Adding a guy like Billy G does absolutely nothing for them.
As I said before, right now he is probably the best option.

If he isn't, then he won't make the team. If he makes the team and then fails, I can't see Laviolette sticking with him.

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Trust me... he will drive the fan base insane.
Better than listening to them complain about Leighton and Holmgren. Giving them anything else to complain about is a blessing in disguise at this point.

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Old
09-13-2010, 09:53 PM
  #78
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People can he benefited from Crosby and Malkin the last couple of years but he could be playing talented players as well on Philadelphia. What I wanna know is where the fit him. There is just so much depth on that Flyers roster.

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09-13-2010, 10:09 PM
  #79
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I though Bill looked good in playoffs last year. Thats just my opinion.

He does not have to play 1st line minutes on Flyers team, he does not have to play both ends of the ice. He needs to provide some leadership, stay in front of the net and score some PP goals. Motivate JVR is also a good idea. Between him and Zherdev maybe they can replace Gagne.

But yeah Guerin could become Pittsburgh's John LeClair (in his 2nd year).

I have no idea why Homer is not looking at Theodore.


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Old
09-13-2010, 10:11 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PenguinsFan2008 View Post
People can he benefited from Crosby and Malkin the last couple of years but he could be playing talented players as well on Philadelphia. What I wanna know is where the fit him. There is just so much depth on that Flyers roster.
By process of elimination based on recent reports, our team will look like this if he gets signed:

Guerin - Richards - Giroux
Hartnell - Briere - Leino
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Zherdev
Carcillo - Betts - Laperriere
Powe - Shelley

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell
Walker - Bartulis

Leighton
Boucher
Backlund
Bobrovsky

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09-13-2010, 10:19 PM
  #81
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I want him if he rocks a mustache the entire season.

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Old
09-13-2010, 10:21 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
-Defense: I understand that.
-Accepting the pass: That's just insane. I will have to see him not manage to accept a pass before I believe anyone with his kind of hands has trouble with it.
-Forecheck: I understand that.
-Backcheck: See defense.
-Goal-scoring: 21 goals last year say you're lying.
If you haven't seen him do it, you simply didn't watch him or weren't paying attention last year. When several people from both sides who have made it their business to watch the Pens regularly are telling you it's true, you might be wise to re-evaluate your position.

He was never a wizard with the puck, and he's one of the oldest players in the league now, so I have no idea why you think it's so nutty that he can't take a pass at this point. If Brind'Amour could see his skills deteriorate like they did last year, why should Guerin be exempt? What other explanation would you suggest for his horrendous ES numbers while being attached to Crosby's hip?

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Not trying to sound mean, but I'd be really shocked if you understood completely how the Flyers' built their team for the postseason, mostly because it involved primarily an elite NHL defense and an incredibly deep scoring front from the top 9.
Shafer questioning Cole's hockey knowledge. Interesting.

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Old
09-13-2010, 10:33 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
More offense is just gravy.
He's really not it. I guess I was a bit broad with saying he "has 20 goals in him." He has offense left in him in the absolute perfect situation. He managed to bum 10 or so last year off Crosby, with several literally hitting his ass and going in the net. He doesn't do much productively without help.


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Richards, Carter, Giroux, Betts, Laperriere, and Powe.
Betts, Powe, and Laperriere are not two-way forwards. They are grinders. There's a distinct difference.

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Even then, the only real liabilities defensively I see are Briere and Zherdev. Guerin being tacked on of course if he is signed.
It sort of depends on the day. Carter has been known to take a few public skate laps in his own end every once in a while, and Carcillo is sort of dumb. These are typical for every team, though, and not really relevant.

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Even on top of that, go ahead and tack on what is probably the best defense in the NHL.
I don't really see it. Pronger is the best playoff defenseman in the world and Timonen is rock solid, but there's a lot of wild cards there. I'm not sure what Coburn, Carle, and Meszaros really bring. They could be great, could be not.



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See: Randy Jones.
Point taken.

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Then he doesn't make the team or Carcillo is bumped in his stead. No big deal.
The biggest risk is that he makes it and then declines even from where he was last year.


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I doubt he gets more than 15 really. He's not getting any PP time, that's for sure.
I disagree. He'll get some, especially with injuries. He can still occasionally fire bullets.



Really, I'll be forever grateful for how nice a guy he was in the community and his help in the Cup winner two years ago. I think you're right about his role, for the most part. He's going to be pretty god awful at everything but scoring goals. He will get a few goals. My issue is whether or not he'll be a good allocation of cap space. I also can't get for the life of me how they haven't signed Theodore yet.

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Old
09-13-2010, 10:38 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
He can't. Not on a rush, not on a cycle, not standing at the left side of the net for a two-foot tap-in.



He can shoot very well if he's given an obscene amount of time and space.



You should check the exit threads for both players on their former team's boards. Comrie's no guarantee to do anything, but he's relatively young, playing for a contract, making league minimum, and hasn't buggered up chance after glorious chance on a line with arguably the best player in the league for the past year.
Seriously??? Check the exit thread on the Pens board? "My grandma could score 40 goals on Crosby's wing!" The Pens are a completely different team than the Flyers. They rely entirely on 2 centers and 1 defenseman (who is now gone) for offense- and have never been able to find anyone besides Hossa to complement Crosby. The Flyers have 3 solid lines which Guerin will fit into nicely. He will play fewer minutes even strength and get plenty of PP time standing in front of the goalie with Pronger shooting from the point.

I don't think Guerin is great or anything but I think he will make the team and score a hell of a lot more points playing with Giroux or Richards than Asham will with Crosby or Malkin.

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09-13-2010, 10:39 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
If you haven't seen him do it, you simply didn't watch him or weren't paying attention last year. When several people from both sides who have made it their business to watch the Pens regularly are telling you it's true, you might be wise to re-evaluate your position.
I didn't watch him religiously. When I did see him, I noticed that his skating is pretty much shot, and that it's not easy for him to keep up with the play. I didn't notice anything that would suggest that his shooting or puck-handling (i.e. receiving passes) are out of sync.

In fact, logic dictates to me that his hands would probably be the last thing to go. His hands control shooting, passing, and puck-handling. So it seems a bit incredible to believe that Guerin can't receive passes. It defies logic. I'm not saying that a number of Penguins' fans saying that regardless of logic it remains the case are necessarily incorrect. I'm just saying I'd rather trust my own eyes on that one.

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
He was never a wizard with the puck, and he's one of the oldest players in the league now, so I have no idea why you think it's so nutty that he can't take a pass at this point.
Receiving a pass isn't all that complicated.

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
If Brind'Amour could see his skills deteriorate like they did last year, why should Guerin be exempt?
He isn't exempt.

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
What other explanation would you suggest for his horrendous ES numbers while being attached to Crosby's hip?
-The fact that Crosby doesn't necessarily boost other player's productions as much as you think he does.
-The fact that Crosby scored a lot more by himself this year which leaves a lot of puck-time away from his linemates. (Which might be a good thing in Guerin's case.)

And of course:

-The fact that Guerin's overall skill-set is deteriorating with age.

I don't take EVPs to heart as much as Penguins fan seem to. Hell, one was just using it to hint that Staal might be better offensively than Richards. While it is important to look at things like that when making a determination on something, you need to be careful about what stats you use.

Besides, in no way do I expect Guerin to be a dynamic offensive force for us or even put up a lot of points. He won't get PP time, and he's going to just be a leech on Richie/Roo while on even strength. I have no doubt of that. I also don't doubt that I'm going to be really frustrated watching him from time to time.

That doesn't necessarily mean there are better options for the role that the Flyers' intend to plug him into.

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Shafer questioning Cole's hockey knowledge. Interesting.
I'm not questioning really.

I'm just wary of whether he believes that the Flyers' physicality/agitation (i.e. Carcillo being more valuable than Guerin's scoring) was an important factor in the Flyers' postseason run.

That would be incorrect. If anything, Carcillo was a hindrance, particularly to Richards' line, through the majority of the postseason.

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09-13-2010, 10:44 PM
  #86
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First off, this is not a high risk move. Depending on what they offer him if he makes the team it will not be a big drain on the Flyers assets.
Secondly, the Flyers missed Knubles' presence last year. That is a somewhat nebulous thing but he has some Knuble properties... as long as he does not feature any "Knubled" ness predilections.
What's it hurt? Who else do you have in mind?

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09-13-2010, 10:46 PM
  #87
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The biggest risk is that he makes it and then declines even from where he was last year.
He's not going to make any money and if he starts to suck then he won't play - Laviolette isn't an idiot. Powe/Carcillo/Laperriere or somebody who plays well for the Phantoms can fill in.

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Old
09-13-2010, 10:47 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
If Guerin signs w/ the Flyers, I smell conspiracy. He'll try to sabotage the Flyers with his terrible speed and lack of hustle.

I think Shero set this up....
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'd probably take Guerin before Comrie...yuck.
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Depends how often Hilary Duff shows up
+1000

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09-13-2010, 10:49 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by AK View Post
He's really not it. I guess I was a bit broad with saying he "has 20 goals in him." He has offense left in him in the absolute perfect situation. He managed to bum 10 or so last year off Crosby, with several literally hitting his ass and going in the net. He doesn't do much productively without help.
Fair enough.

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Betts, Powe, and Laperriere are not two-way forwards. They are grinders. There's a distinct difference.
I was under the impression that you were hinting that the Flyers did not have enough defensively responsible forwards.

I apologize. Anyway, Richards, Carter, and Giroux are all very good on the PK. Hartnell, Leino (in limited playoff sightings), and vanRiemsdyk have been proven to be at least decent.

Briere and Zherdev are another matter.

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It sort of depends on the day. Carter has been known to take a few public skate laps in his own end every once in a while, and Carcillo is sort of dumb.


If there's one thing I want Pens fans to stop saying is that Carter is lazy. That's really not even close to true. The theory itself was created by people who don't understand hockey. On top of that, that same mistake applies to how he plays offense, not how he plays defense. I assure you that Carter is not only very good defensively, but ALMOST NEVER (I can't recall a single situation) where he has EVER taken "a few public skate laps in his own end."

Your Carcillo comment is pretty true, but he calmed down quite a bit after Laviolette got a hold of him. We'll see how well that goes in the future.

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I don't really see it. Pronger is the best playoff defenseman in the world and Timonen is rock solid, but there's a lot of wild cards there. I'm not sure what Coburn, Carle, and Meszaros really bring. They could be great, could be not.
Sorry. I'm not being a homer. The Flyers have the best defense in the NHL right now top to bottom.

It's not my fault that you don't know what Coburn, Carle, and Meszaros bring.

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The biggest risk is that he makes it and then declines even from where he was last year.
Not really. He'll get benched if it becomes an issue. I doubt it ever would.

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I disagree. He'll get some, especially with injuries. He can still occasionally fire bullets.
Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Zherdev, Hartnell, vanRiemsdyk, and Leino are all ahead of him for forward PP time.

There's no chance any of those forwards will swap to the point either with Pronger, Timonen, Carle, and Meszaros on the blueline.

So, in order for Guerin to get powerplay time, three other top 9 forwards would have to be injured.

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Really, I'll be forever grateful for how nice a guy he was in the community and his help in the Cup winner two years ago. I think you're right about his role, for the most part. He's going to be pretty god awful at everything but scoring goals. He will get a few goals. My issue is whether or not he'll be a good allocation of cap space.
For around league minimum I don't really care who we sign to be perfectly honest with you.

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I also can't get for the life of me how they haven't signed Theodore yet.
Because Leighton will put up decent enough numbers behind a cup contender.

Teams make the goalie, not vice versa.

That's another argument for another day though.

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Old
09-13-2010, 10:52 PM
  #90
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First off, this is not a high risk move. Depending on what they offer him if he makes the team it will not be a big drain on the Flyers assets.
Secondly, the Flyers missed Knubles' presence last year. That is a somewhat nebulous thing but he has some Knuble properties... as long as he does not feature any "Knubled" ness predilections.
What's it hurt? Who else do you have in mind?
He never really attempted to get the puck back once it was lost, so he didn't take too many powerplay negating penalties. He just seemed so apathetic on the powerplay last year, a lot of 50/50 pucks became cleared pucks because of him.

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09-13-2010, 10:57 PM
  #91
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Lol@taking Guerin before Comrie. What is one thing Guerin does on the ice better? Skate? Nope. Shoot? No (gimme a break, the dude's shot isn't that good), if it was better maybe he would have potted some more gimmies. Pass? Nah. Deke? Noooo. I'd take the Guerin the Pens had for the 09 run, but other than that he was okay to awful, and it's only going to get worse.

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09-13-2010, 10:58 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I didn't watch him religiously. When I did see him, I noticed that his skating is pretty much shot, and that it's not easy for him to keep up with the play. I didn't notice anything that would suggest that his shooting or puck-handling (i.e. receiving passes) are out of sync.

In fact, logic dictates to me that his hands would probably be the last thing to go. His hands control shooting, passing, and puck-handling. So it seems a bit incredible to believe that Guerin can't receive passes. It defies logic. I'm not saying that a number of Penguins' fans saying that regardless of logic it remains the case are necessarily incorrect. I'm just saying I'd rather trust my own eyes on that one.
By all means, trust your own eyes above all.

But it makes perfect sense that your processing and reaction time slow down with age, and when you're on a rush or situated beside the net and your teammate isn't telegraphing the pass, you might be unprepared to receive it and it would consequently end up bouncing harmlessly into the corner, where you'd get beaten to the puck, your team would lose possession, and an opposition rush would head the opposite way.

FYI, I just described 90% of Guerin's plays last season.

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Receiving a pass isn't all that complicated.
You wouldn't think. Billy made it look like astro-physics.

Quote:
Besides, in no way do I expect Guerin to be a dynamic offensive force for us or even put up a lot of points. He won't get PP time, and he's going to just be a leech on Richie/Roo while on even strength. I have no doubt of that. I also don't doubt that I'm going to be really frustrated watching him from time to time.
So if Guerin doesn't get PP time, where he scored about half his points last year, then what does that leave you with?

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That doesn't necessarily mean there are better options for the role that the Flyers' intend to plug him into.
Carcillo would be better. He at least has a niche.

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I'm not questioning really.

I'm just wary of whether he believes that the Flyers' physicality/agitation (i.e. Carcillo being more valuable than Guerin's scoring) was an important factor in the Flyers' postseason run.

That would be incorrect.
If anything, Carcillo was a hindrance, particularly to Richards' line, through the majority of the postseason.
I think the Flyers' battle level from most of the forward corps was a pretty significant factor in their run. Adding Zherdev is understandable since he has the talent for the price tag, but adding Guerin on top of that would make the Flyers a whole lot easier to play against.

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09-13-2010, 11:00 PM
  #93
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I think it's a no-lose pickup by the Flyers. Guerin can still produce like a 2nd liner.

Problem is at his age you can fall of a cliff pretty quickly, and without PP time (and he'll be hard pressed to get PP time) I'm not sure he'll be much more than a 10-15gl/30-35pt 3rd line type guy....and at his age, he's not giving the all around game that you want from a 3rd liner.

But hey, if you think he'll get some PP time, and if he's just being used as insurance, that's not a bad pickup.

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Old
09-13-2010, 11:01 PM
  #94
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so basically the flyers traded asham-for-guerin?
When you put it like that I really don't like it. Perhaps, Asham wanted a guaranteed spot? But, I don't think so, since he was apparently still hoping for a contract from the team even after the Gagne trade if I remember correctly.

I kind of don't want Guerin, because from what I've heard Guerin, was not so good last year, and we have a full roster now anyways.

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09-13-2010, 11:04 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
You wouldn't think. Billy made it look like astro-physics.
This made me chuckle.

Then I stopped chuckling because, of course, I realized after watching him a ton last season that this really is the absolute truth.

Then I realized that the Flyers are probably gonna sign the guy. Now I'm suddenly not feeling so well.

Any chance Billy can play goal?

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09-13-2010, 11:07 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Chris Shafer - Your argument for Guerin is slowly going to become hatred for #13. He isn't anywhere near the player he was and is actually a problem on the ice. The guy doesn't play defense, can't accept a pass, doesn't forecheck or backcheck, and really doesn't pop goals in the net anymore, either. Don't show me stats from 2 years ago because it doesn't make your argument at all.

The way the flyers played in the postseason is how they should build their team. Adding a guy like Billy G does absolutely nothing for them. Trust me... he will drive the fan base insane.
I hate to dissapoint you but I really doubt Guerin will single-handedly submarine the Flyers season. The best thing about Guerin on the Flyers is that they don't really need him - so he either plays well or he doesn't play. In Pittsburgh last year it was play him with Crosby or play Dupuis or some other crap.

Just wondering out loud but why can't Kunitz score with Crosby or Malkin? He wouldn't have scored as much as Guerin last year even if he was healthy. Heck - he was more productive in Anaheim and it's not like he's old now. It's just strange that his stats playing with the two best centers in the world are worse than Bill Guerin's - the worst winger in the league who can barely score tap-in goals.

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09-13-2010, 11:08 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
This made me chuckle.

Then I stopped chuckling because, of course, I realized after watching him a ton last season that this really is the absolute truth.

Then I realized that the Flyers are probably gonna sign the guy. Now I'm suddenly not feeling so well.

Any chance Billy can play goal?
Could be. He foiled a ton of Pens scoring opportunities last season.

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Old
09-13-2010, 11:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
So if Guerin doesn't get PP time, where he scored about half his points last year, then what does that leave you with?
I'm hoping for 30 points, maybe 15 goals at most.

Probably not, but I'm not expecting miracles anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Carcillo would be better. He at least has a niche.
Well, both Carcillo and Guerin will drag down Richards+Giroux.

At that point it's really the type of player you want in there and who will drag it down the least.

Of course this is all pending a tryout. We don't even know if he's made the team yet.

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I think the Flyers' battle level from most of the forward corps was a pretty significant factor in their run.
This is correct, but far too many people mistake this for physicality.

Forecheck is the full package: Physicality, Puck-handling, Puck-control, Puck-cycling, Vision, Patient, Endurance, Understanding the System, Boardwork, Speed, Finding Open Ice, etc. and so forth.

The Flyers are a team that lives and breathes heavy forecheck. That's what gives them an advantage (in my mind anyway) against weaker/thinner defenses. So yes, forechecking is important, and we were actually discussing Guerin's inability to play the forecheck on the Flyers' forum.

That said, I thought he might be okay with Richards and Giroux leading to forecheck on that line. They're both excellent forecheckers.

Then again, if Laviolette sees that Guerin cannot handle the forecheck in camp, he will probably not play him even if he does get a minor contract. Laviolette believes in a heavy forecheck and pushing pressure by activating defensemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Adding Zherdev is understandable since he has the talent for the price tag, but adding Guerin on top of that would make the Flyers a whole lot easier to play against.
Not necessarily. Gagne couldn't forecheck any better than Carter, and Carter, which is where the lazy title comes from, is about as clued in when in the offensive zone as Briere is in the defensive zone. A lot of that diminishes Carter's forechecking ability as well because he doesn't always know where to be. Put that on a line with Zherdev and a sophomore JVR, and it raises some concerns. Briere's line though is a very strong forechecking line; as are both Richards and Giroux.

We will see how much of a concern it is.

At this point you're trading Asham's forechecking in theory for Guerin, which is a drop off.

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09-13-2010, 11:11 PM
  #99
CS
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Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 View Post
When you put it like that I really don't like it. Perhaps, Asham wanted a guaranteed spot? But, I don't think so, since he was apparently still hoping for a contract from the team even after the Gagne trade if I remember correctly.

I kind of don't want Guerin, because from what I've heard Guerin, was not so good last year, and we have a full roster now anyways.
Asham, like Carcillo and Powe, had no right playing in our top 9.

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09-13-2010, 11:13 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
I hate to dissapoint you but I really doubt Guerin will single-handedly submarine the Flyers season. The best thing about Guerin on the Flyers is that they don't really need him - so he either plays well or he doesn't play. In Pittsburgh last year it was play him with Crosby or play Dupuis or some other crap.

Just wondering out loud but why can't Kunitz score with Crosby or Malkin? He wouldn't have scored as much as Guerin last year even if he was healthy. Heck - he was more productive in Anaheim and it's not like he's old now. It's just strange that his stats playing with the two best centers in the world are worse than Bill Guerin's - the worst winger in the league who can barely score tap-in goals.
Absolutely incorrect. Kunitz would have gotten 55+ points last season if healthy. He must of played maybe 10 healthy games all season, if that.

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