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Hamrlik & Spacek -- Two Czechs One Problem

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:31 AM
  #26
MathMan
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Those guys are getting way, way too much flak that they don't deserve.

They're two tough-minutes defensemen who kept the team afloat last year while Gorges was dragging whichever hapless D-man was attached to him in a semblance of a second pairing. They literally kept the team out of the lottery.

The ability to take on the oppositions' top line night in and night out and come out, if not ahead (none of the Habs did) then fairly well, ought to be appreciated, because it's extremely valuable. And, clearly, that's an aspect that's underrated, which ironic because it's also exceedingly important.

There might be a bit of overpayment in the contract, Hammer and Spacek are extremely valuable, even vital, players on the ice. Get rid of them and you'd immediately need two guys with similar skills, skills that don't come cheap because NHL GMs understand their importance.

There's a case to be made to move one of those salaries towards forward, but there's nothing wrong with having a strong defensive core, especially with the way Montreal taxes theirs.

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09-14-2010, 09:36 AM
  #27
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So many people here love Bieksa, who has watched him a lot? Yeah, when he's on his game he can be great but he's maddeningly inconsistent and can look just as bad as he can good. I think most people here just see him drop the gloves and look at the few nice seasons he's had on the scoresheet. IF that poor souls signs here we would easily become the new whipping boy faster than you can say Kostitsyn, too inconsistent.

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09-14-2010, 09:47 AM
  #28
Dirty Danglez
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[QUOTE=WestIslander;27770967]
Quote:
salary wise, they are a two headed burden of 9,3M
but right now, I don't see anyone for whom we can trade or any dman who can replace them as effectively.[/QUOTE]

Subban, Picard, O'Byrne, Carle and Weber

Right now we can play with:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
O'Byrne - Picard

No?
Dear god thats a patheric lineup. You being serious?

Markov Subban
Hammer Spacek
Gill Gorges

is a wayyy sexier dcorps

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:51 AM
  #29
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Souray, persona non grata in Edm...

re-launch the debate...

for 1 year, with Markov healthy...
Souray over Hamr?

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09-14-2010, 09:54 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
This is thread worthy?
If it wasn't for Hamrlik stepping it up at the beginning of the season last year, where would the canadiens be?
The guy was gassed by the end of the season and it showed in the playoffs.
But some around here are making him out to be a pariah, which of course he is not.
Now with the emergence of Subban, who would you pair with him?
The natural choice is Hamrlik.

NHL 11 is waiting for ya
Most underrated post of the thread

you are so right

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:54 AM
  #31
MathMan
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
Souray over Hamr?
Hell no.

Hammer is much better 5-on-5, a better all-around player, and much more durable. He's capable of playing tough minutes in a way Souray isn't and can lead his pairing. Just a much better player... and he has only one year left on his contract.

The big thing Souray has going for him is his slapper, and the Habs' PP is just not an area of need.

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:55 AM
  #32
Iwishihadacup
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I just realized how hf hates 35+ years old

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:57 AM
  #33
JrHockeyFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Spacek : 36 years old
Hamrlik : 36 years old


Let's face it, in a few years these guys will be playing charity hockey.

Both played a lot of hockey last year due to injuries and of course the playoff run. Hamrlik especially looked noticeably slower than in previous years -- and it especially showed in the playoffs.

They are most likely going to regress in terms of performance and health.

Now I said " Most likely ".

Sure they can actually have better seasons or play the same as last year ... but we all know that at a certain point (especially past 35) the performance and game of a hockey player tends to decline (on average) a little bit with each passing year. What that means is that if Odds maker would make a bet on these two -- the line favourite would be Regression


Will they be the Achilles heal next year?

We also have Markov with questionable health. Gill misses a lot of games on average.

Gorges and PK may very well rise to the occasion but how much weight can we put on the shoulders of a player with zero offensive production and a rookie?

If the odds end up falling as predicted we are in for a change in guard on the D this year ... a bit too early for my liking.
Amazing how these 36 yr old guys were the ones that didn't get injured and were there for us

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:58 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
I just realized how hf hates 35+ years old
But you've been so involved on here for a few years!!!

And you're wrong, it's 25+ years old.

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Old
09-14-2010, 09:58 AM
  #35
Iwishihadacup
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
Amazing how these 36 yr old guys were the ones that didn't get injured and were there for us
Shh!! they are past their prime and useless, they can bring nothing to us anymore, its unarguable

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:06 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
Amazing how these 36 yr old guys were the ones that didn't get injured and were there for us
The point he's making is that they aren't young anymore and if guys like Gorges, Gill, Subban, Markov, etc get injured and they have to step it up, play more ice time etc they'll get gassed again and thus under perform again.

It's a completely valid point actually. I don't get what is so mind boggling about the statements being made.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:09 AM
  #37
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Yeah, I don't see the problem

We have Markov and Subban to play with them so they don't need blazing speed or high offensive totals. Hamrlik and Spacek are two very serviceable Dmen who fill a shutdown role quite nicely as well as bringing leadership to the table. If Martin/Guathier feels they have lost a step or are declining in ability I don't think they'd be here.

If they both indeed look like old men when the season starts I have faith in our young D in the AHL.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:13 AM
  #38
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The single problem is that the work of the current management team could not produce good young players, making these old farts neccessary.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:15 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
The point he's making is that they aren't young anymore and if guys like Gorges, Gill, Subban, Markov, etc get injured and they have to step it up, play more ice time etc they'll get gassed again and thus under perform again.

It's a completely valid point actually. I don't get what is so mind boggling about the statements being made.
Well the OP has a legitimate point but also asks if these two will be the Achilles heal. Is it fair to point directly at those two while making the argument they will get gassed again if they have to hog a lot of minutes? If that happens maybe the Achilles heal is the same group of players getting injured or the organization's inability to have D prospects ready to go. The two Czechs were not a problem last year - just part of the solution in solving other problems IMO.

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09-14-2010, 10:15 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
The point he's making is that they aren't young anymore and if guys like Gorges, Gill, Subban, Markov, etc get injured and they have to step it up, play more ice time etc they'll get gassed again and thus under perform again.

It's a completely valid point actually. I don't get what is so mind boggling about the statements being made.
It is a valid point but at the same time a lot of people are making it sound like they're at the point of the careers where it's time to take them out back and shoot them. Other posters are arguing that that's not the case and they are still valuable. Essentially we need a point in the middle but our young defencemen might not be ready, and in the last few years the Habs have drafted a lot more defence men so they are addressing that depth issue.

And in my opinion who knows who will emerge in camp on our blue line, a lot can change on the depth chart between now and when the season starts. We're not the only team in this position either, injuries and worn out players happen in a lot of team's top 4. Not too many teams have a perfect defence group.

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09-14-2010, 10:26 AM
  #41
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Hamrlik was playing 28 minutes (!!!) some games early in season, and doing quite well. Spacek got a lot better by end of season once he began to adjust to RD.

Maybe Subban and Obyrne can assume more minutes this season, Gorges too, so we won't need to lean on Hammer and Spacek if there's injuries.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:36 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
At best, Spacek and Harmlik may be slightly better than last year. However, due to aging, the chance that they get worse is bigger.
I'd be happy if Harmlik is traded away, then saving $5.5M.
I disagree. I don't think people understand how an amazing job those two did early last season. Markov is not the only player that went down.
Markov was out game 1.
O'Byrne was out game 2.
MAB didn't get here until the 2nd week of the season, and he was horrendous on D all year.
Gill was playing injured early in the season and struggled a lot.

We had to play Mara and he was horrible so that didn't help. People forget he even was part of our team. He also got injured.
We had to bring in a guy like Jay Leach...are you kidding me??...That's how bad it was over here. This wasn't because of Hamr and Spacek, they along with Gorges, were the only reason we somehow made it through.

Hamr-Spacek-Gorges did a fantastic job. Spacek also had to adapt to playing on his off wing for the first time in his career, and no doubt he struggled at it for a bit.
But all in all, that pairing was great for us and was able to east Markov's loss.

Next year, with a healthy Markov hopefully and Subban, their ice time drops right away.
With Gorges and Gill capable of handling serious PK minutes, and with having Markov-Subban on the roster as well, Hammer won't have to be the 3rd most used Dman (on PK).

I think Spacek was great for us during the POs. The same can be said for Hammer once he got through his struggling phase vs the Caps.

I'm very happy with our D corps going into next season. It is the most encouraging part of our team. When you have the luxury of having a guy like Gorges as your 5th D, then you're in real good shape on the back end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
salary wise, they are a two headed burden of 9,3M
but right now, I don't see anyone for whom we can trade or any dman who can replace them as effectively.

Subban, Picard, O'Byrne, Carle and Weber

Right now we can play with:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
O'Byrne - Picard

No?
You think O'Byrne - Picard are as good or better than Hamr-Spacek???...Are you crazy?

The only way I want Hammer or Spacek moved is if they're replaced by younger players of equal talent, or at the deadline if we're out of contention (which I strongly doubt).

Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
The point he's making is that they aren't young anymore and if guys like Gorges, Gill, Subban, Markov, etc get injured and they have to step it up, play more ice time etc they'll get gassed again and thus under perform again.

It's a completely valid point actually. I don't get what is so mind boggling about the statements being made.
They didn't get gassed again because we suffered a few injuries. We had multiple simultaneous injuries, not only on D but on Offense as well.
The fact our team could produce very little offensively certainly didn't help the D. Our offense never gave our defense a night out, rarely did the D have a big margin for error.

Also, outside the injuries to our D squad, the people that stepped in as replacements didn't do a good job at all. MAB-Mara-Leach were horrible, Gill was bad for a good part of the year, O'Byrne struggled when he came back from injury not looking nearly as good as he did during camp, Weber-Carle-Belle were not NHL material. Subban had a couple games here during the year but it was apparent he needed more AHL seasoning and that's why he was sent back down quickly.

Not to mention, both Spacek and Hammer suffered minor injuries and because of the minority of it, they most likely had to play through them.

POs came around and Spacek showed he still had gas in his tank. He was great for us.
Hammer struggled right out of the gate vs the Caps, but he simplified his game, focused and got better as POs went on.


Hammer and Spacek are not going to gas out if we suffer a few injuries, they will if we suffer long term injuries to key players and the depth turns out to play horribly again. You can say the same for pretty much every player out there, young or old.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:46 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Hell no.

Hammer is much better 5-on-5, a better all-around player, and much more durable. He's capable of playing tough minutes in a way Souray isn't and can lead his pairing. Just a much better player... and he has only one year left on his contract.

The big thing Souray has going for him is his slapper, and the Habs' PP is just not an area of need.
You know what, I'd do it...

Hamrlik was the better all around player without a doubt, but this past season, especially in the playoffs, Hamrlik had some awful stretches. No way to know for sure how he will "bounce back" this year, but if he were to regress, he's not far from becoming a liability.

Souray is what he is, and honestly his defensive game is better now than it was when he last played here. Injuries are always a problem with him, but that's in part because he plays such a hard physical game, which we definitely could use more of.

plus it allows us to pair him with Markov and Subban with Spacek, returning him to his natural side, and giving both pairings a nice combination of puck moving, physical play and dangerous offensive zone threat.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:50 AM
  #44
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[QUOTE=MikeCammalleri;27771616]
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post

Dear god thats a patheric lineup. You being serious?

Markov Subban
Hammer Spacek
Gill Gorges

is a wayyy sexier dcorps
switch PK and spacek and im happy
you're right tho this lineup is so much better than having Picard playing and Gorges on the top pairing

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Old
09-14-2010, 11:20 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
The point he's making is that they aren't young anymore and if guys like Gorges, Gill, Subban, Markov, etc get injured and they have to step it up, play more ice time etc they'll get gassed again and thus under perform again.

It's a completely valid point actually. I don't get what is so mind boggling about the statements being made.
Thanks

As you pointed out, is the fact that if they are called-up for injuries we might find ourselves in a pickle. And I am amazed as you are too that so many are dismissing the threat of injuries -- most noticeably Markov and Gill who have been fairly injury prone in the past....

I am a glass half full type but I am also a realist -- the way I see it; we have Gill and Markov who are injury prone.

Hamrlik and Spacek who are getting in age ...With each passing year -- the risk of injury associated with players at 35 increases at a faster rate. Now I don't have a crystal ball or anything -- but we should not be surprised if one them misses a significant amount of action this year. It's just reality of a 36 year old D-man.


This is what I meant as changing of the guard -- chances are that guys like Gorges and Subban will be asked to take the lead this time and less so Hamrlik and Spacek .

I love Gorges but not as a top pairing d-man. Subban is a rookie.

I do agree with some that pointed out that next year 5.5 of Hammers salary would be off the books --- but this year , I am not sure if we have the ability to recover if he continues to slow down / and or has health issues.



Just a feeling -- but I think we're going to be relying on Gorges, Subban and O'byrne quite a bit.

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Old
09-14-2010, 11:46 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
plus it allows us to pair him with Markov and Subban with Spacek, returning him to his natural side, and giving both pairings a nice combination of puck moving, physical play and dangerous offensive zone threat.
FYI, Souray is a LD. He played with Rivet, who is right-handed, while he was with Montreal.

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Old
09-14-2010, 01:22 PM
  #47
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Totally agree but you can't say anything negative about Hamrlik here - he's an All Star...
oh well , not an all star, but a guy who always gave us a pair, no matter who the plug playing with him was. Dandenault, brisebois, brutal obyrne, and so on... seems to me this guy was a pair in itself, and I personally tend to appreciate that.

And now he had bad streches and its the end of the world ?

he played heavy minutes when markov went down... and spacek and hammer have been very important players last year, with spacek being a force in the playoffs.

I mean their care level is high ... they are defenders and all their mistakes are noticed ...thats all.

as for me, I'd make a pinata with a.kos and other floaters before I'd say anything against those two...

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Old
09-14-2010, 02:02 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
Souray, persona non grata in Edm...

re-launch the debate...

for 1 year, with Markov healthy...
Souray over Hamr?
That would be a huge downgrade. It's not for nothing that Edmonton is desperately tring to dump him.

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Old
09-14-2010, 02:05 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Thanks

As you pointed out, is the fact that if they are called-up for injuries we might find ourselves in a pickle. And I am amazed as you are too that so many are dismissing the threat of injuries -- most noticeably Markov and Gill who have been fairly injury prone in the past....

I am a glass half full type but I am also a realist -- the way I see it; we have Gill and Markov who are injury prone.

Hamrlik and Spacek who are getting in age ...With each passing year -- the risk of injury associated with players at 35 increases at a faster rate. Now I don't have a crystal ball or anything -- but we should not be surprised if one them misses a significant amount of action this year. It's just reality of a 36 year old D-man.


This is what I meant as changing of the guard -- chances are that guys like Gorges and Subban will be asked to take the lead this time and less so Hamrlik and Spacek .

I love Gorges but not as a top pairing d-man. Subban is a rookie.

I do agree with some that pointed out that next year 5.5 of Hammers salary would be off the books --- but this year , I am not sure if we have the ability to recover if he continues to slow down / and or has health issues.



Just a feeling -- but I think we're going to be relying on Gorges, Subban and O'byrne quite a bit.
Subban gives us another NHL calibre d-man that we didn't have last year. Hopefully Markov can have better luck than the last 16 months. I think a guy like Carle could help with steady minutes.

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Old
09-14-2010, 04:43 PM
  #50
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I agree and disagree. In the end, what I'd like is to see one of our prospect in D come out and earn or steal either Spacek's or Hamrlik's place, forcing us to move them. Look what happened with the Price experiment. Let them pay their dues, but when they beat someone out of the line up, give them what they deserve.

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