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Hamrlik & Spacek -- Two Czechs One Problem

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Old
09-14-2010, 06:29 PM
  #51
Flambergius
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
As high as any other team. Markov's 35 games missed were a freak injury. And we have more depth on D than most teams. I found the comment to be very offbase. Have you actually taken a look at other team's Ds? It's actually the reason we made it to the playoffs despite missing Markov for almost half the season, and that was without the addition of Subban. Carle and Weber are just bound to make the jump too. And we have Picard as an added spare wheel. We've never had this much depth on D since the early 90s. Montreal's top 6 on D is extremely underrated.

If both Markov and Subban are healthy, Spacek's and Hammer's workload is highly decreased compared to last year. Additionally, both former will likely each be paired up with one of the latter, giving them strong support on their individual pairings. Anyone of the 4 gets injured, you have Gorges who can play solid D on the top 4. Even if Markov goes down, this time around, we'll have Subban, and something tells me PK might be very durable too. So short of having both Markov and Subban injured at the same time, our D will likely be better than last year.
Granted that my statement about being vulnerable to injury bug wasn't worded very well. Every team is vulnerable and I didn't mean that we are more so than others, I just meant that injury bugs are pretty common and can have serious effects.

However, I stand by what I said about our defense corps being a vulnerable part of our team in terms of depth over the whole season. Besides Markov, who I have complete faith in, we have three good veterans in Spacek, Hammer and Gorges, but I agree with the OPs assessment that Spacek and Hammer will wear down if they have to carry a heavy workload. Gill is excellent penalty killer, but let's not forget that during regular season he is limited overall and often a defensive liability. Subban is exciting, but I don't want him playing top pairing minutes just yet. It is his first year, we're much better off in the end if we really let him be a rookie this year. That means third pairing at least until January.

It's not bad group of six d-men by any means, if you want to compare it to what other teams have. The problem is that there are only two players, Markov and Gorges, in that top six who I would feel comfortable asking to play over 20 minutes consistently. Spacek and Hammer can and will do it occasionally, but if they have to do it for a month or more it will have an negative impact on their performance, possibly for the rest of the season. I want them pushing themselves to the limit in the play-offs - not before. Having people like Weber, Carle and Picard is very good, but I'd expect them to play 13-15 minutes if they get called up because of injury to one of top six. Only player not already mentioned is O'Byrne, I actually think that he is most likely source of relief if it starts to look like we're having to overwork Spacek/Hammer, but he would need to take a smallish step forward in performance, which he might not be able to do.

Our forward corps doesn't have this quality. The depth and quality overall, when everybody is healthy and fresh, is pretty even between F and D on this team. However, the forwards are younger and much more interchangeable among themselves, so do I see anyone that might easily become overworked in the absence of one or even several other players.

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09-14-2010, 06:41 PM
  #52
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I think everybody agree that Hamrlik and Spacek are on the last miles of their career and cannot be relied on long term.

But trading any of them now is complicated. Too complicated for what it's worth.

Maybe at the trade deadline, if the habs aren't making the playoffs for some reason. We could get lucky and fetch a good pick or prospect for Hamrlik.

But I don't see this happen. He'll finish his contract in Montreal, and with his money we'll sign a cheaper, younger guy instead.

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09-14-2010, 06:42 PM
  #53
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Flambergius View Post
Granted that my statement about being vulnerable to injury bug wasn't worded very well. Every team is vulnerable and I didn't mean that we are more so than others, I just meant that injury bugs are pretty common and can have serious effects.

However, I stand by what I said about our defense corps being a vulnerable part of our team in terms of depth over the whole season. Besides Markov, who I have complete faith in, we have three good veterans in Spacek, Hammer and Gorges, but I agree with the OPs assessment that Spacek and Hammer will wear down if they have to carry a heavy workload. Gill is excellent penalty killer, but let's not forget that during regular season he is limited overall and often a defensive liability. Subban is exciting, but I don't want him playing top pairing minutes just yet. It is his first year, we're much better off in the end if we really let him be a rookie this year. That means third pairing at least until January.

It's not bad group of six d-men by any means, if you want to compare it to what other teams have. The problem is that there are only two players, Markov and Gorges, in that top six who I would feel comfortable asking to play over 20 minutes consistently. Spacek and Hammer can and will do it occasionally, but if they have to do it for a month or more it will have an negative impact on their performance, possibly for the rest of the season. I want them pushing themselves to the limit in the play-offs - not before. Having people like Weber, Carle and Picard is very good, but I'd expect them to play 13-15 minutes if they get called up because of injury to one of top six. Only player not already mentioned is O'Byrne, I actually think that he is most likely source of relief if it starts to look like we're having to overwork Spacek/Hammer, but he would need to take a smallish step forward in performance, which he might not be able to do.

Our forward corps doesn't have this quality. The depth and quality overall, when everybody is healthy and fresh, is pretty even between F and D on this team. However, the forwards are younger and much more interchangeable among themselves, so do I see anyone that might easily become overworked in the absence of one or even several other players.
Subban will dictate himself how much ice time he can have depending on how he performs. There's no reason to limit him to a bottom pairing role until January if he outplays most of our players. He also has a sure spot on the PP.
He came in the POs and when Markov went down he was very solid for us. He played top minutes and was good at it.
Tyler Myers didn't have any problems keeping his ice time over 20min, so no reason to say Subban won't be, especially if we look at what he's shown us yet.

Also, what if it's only Markov and Gorges that can put up 20+ Min consistently??..
There isn't too many teams with the luxury of playing 3 of their Dmen 20Min +.
We actually have the luxury of having 5 guys, Markov-Subban-Gorges-Hammer-Spacek that can all play around the 20min mark if needed.

Really, you're making an issue out of nothing it seems.

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09-14-2010, 06:53 PM
  #54
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[QUOTE=WestIslander;27770967]
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salary wise, they are a two headed burden of 9,3M
but right now, I don't see anyone for whom we can trade or any dman who can replace them as effectively.[/QUOTE]

Subban, Picard, O'Byrne, Carle and Weber

Right now we can play with:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
O'Byrne - Picard

No?
Spacek-Hamrlik >>>>> O'byrne-Picard

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09-14-2010, 07:14 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Subban will dictate himself how much ice time he can have depending on how he performs. There's no reason to limit him to a bottom pairing role until January if he outplays most of our players. He also has a sure spot on the PP.
He came in the POs and when Markov went down he was very solid for us. He played top minutes and was good at it.
Tyler Myers didn't have any problems keeping his ice time over 20min, so no reason to say Subban won't be, especially if we look at what he's shown us yet.

Also, what if it's only Markov and Gorges that can put up 20+ Min consistently??..
There isn't too many teams with the luxury of playing 3 of their Dmen 20Min +.
We actually have the luxury of having 5 guys, Markov-Subban-Gorges-Hammer-Spacek that can all play around the 20min mark if needed.


Really, you're making an issue out of nothing it seems.

I really like this statement!!

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09-14-2010, 07:53 PM
  #56
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FYI, Souray is a LD. He played with Rivet, who is right-handed, while he was with Montreal.
really? Were him and Markov only together on PP's?
Who did Markov play with those last 2 seasons?

I was living abroad chunks of those years, so I didn't get to watch too many games, but I seem to remember Souray/Markov on the ice together... maybe it was only from PP highlights???

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09-14-2010, 08:01 PM
  #57
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
really? Were him and Markov only together on PP's?
Who did Markov play with those last 2 seasons?

I was living abroad chunks of those years, so I didn't get to watch too many games, but I seem to remember Souray/Markov on the ice together... maybe it was only from PP highlights???
Markov was turning Komisarek into a valuable Dman.

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09-14-2010, 08:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

Also, what if it's only Markov and Gorges that can put up 20+ Min consistently??
Markov was recovering last summer with an injury at the end of the year that took him out of the PO (don't remember what it was again ???)

He suffered a torn tendon and never really got back to his old speed in the 1st game. He did not look like the same Markov this year.

He then suffered a knee injury via Cooke that took him out of the PO in 2010 that required surgery and rehabilitation.

Yet it is clearly money in the bank that he's going to come back , as old Markov, and have a long healthy minute rich season. ?????

Gill -- look at his history -- enough said.

Ya I'm concerned that Hamrlik and Spacek will fall apart themselves as well due to a combination of factors that comes down to their age and point in career.


It's not entirely implausible that we're going to need some of the younger guys chipping in sooner than later... I guess what this really all comes down to is that we'll be ok in 2011 when we'll be able to replace Hamrlik's 5.5 with younger blood.

We'll see if I'm on the money about our D being too old and fragile.

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09-14-2010, 08:35 PM
  #59
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Markov was recovering last summer with an injury at the end of the year that took him out of the PO (don't remember what it was again ???)

He suffered a torn tendon and never really got back to his old speed in the 1st game. He did not look like the same Markov this year.

He then suffered a knee injury via Cooke that took him out of the PO in 2010 that required surgery and rehabilitation.

Yet it is clearly money in the bank that he's going to come back , as old Markov, and have a long healthy minute rich season. ?????

Gill -- look at his history -- enough said.

Ya I'm concerned that Hamrlik and Spacek will fall apart themselves as well due to a combination of factors that comes down to their age and point in career.


It's not entirely implausible that we're going to need some of the younger guys chipping in sooner than later... I guess what this really all comes down to is that we'll be ok in 2011 when we'll be able to replace Hamrlik's 5.5 with younger blood.

We'll see if I'm on the money about our D being too old and fragile.
People suffer injuries..what's your point?..Markov was out for 3months to begin the season, where he couldn't do much of anything. When he started feeling better, they got him in ''good to go shape'' as quickly as possible. It didn't take long.

Right now, he's been skating for a while. There's no reason to think he won't come back in good shape and suddenly will go from #1 QB MVP to a player struggling to put in 20Min a game.
Gonchar has suffered many big injuries throughout his career, yet he's still one of the best Dman in the league and puts up 20+ min/game.

I'm not saying Markov is injury-risk free, nobody is. But you know what, we could end up losing every player on our roster to injury...Really, there's no way of predicting what will happen.
As far as we know, Markov will be healthy once he's back. Clearly, they are taking the proper time for him to have a successful rehab.

Gill-Hammer-Spacek are all old..Doesn't take a genius to figure out we have an aging D squad. I fail to see how this means we will struggle though.

If we lose Markov this time around, Subban will be there and will appease this lost quite a bit as he did during POs. For the first time in how many years?..We were actually confident without Markov in the roster last POs. That's mainly thanks to Subban's presence.

You can add the depth as well from O'Byrne, Picard, Weber, Carle. Those are not All-Star Dmen to say the least, but they can fill smaller roles if our top Dmen go down. Other guys like Gorges, Spacek, Subban can step up and play bigger roles/minutes if we lose Markov or Hammer.

Really, Defense is the least of our problems. Nobody should be worried about it.

Worry about poor ES scoring, worry about just how well Price can play, heck worry about Martin's system...but don't worry about the D. We are more than fine at that position.

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09-14-2010, 09:51 PM
  #60
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They've become awful D but PG is keeping them because he didn't have the cojones to get top defencemen in the summer.

I don't get how you would say Hamm and Spacek did a good job last year when they've had more turnovers than every D in the damn league. The team spend time and time in their zone because these two duffuses fumble the pucks so much. For a supposed speedy team, you can't use it when the D squad prevent the forwards to counterstrike properly by having the plays stop in your zone.

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09-14-2010, 09:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
They've become awful D but PG is keeping them because he didn't have the cojones to get top defencemen in the summer.

I don't get how you would say Hamm and Spacek did a good job last year when they've had more turnovers than every D in the damn league. The team spend time and time in their zone because these two duffuses fumble the pucks so much. For a supposed speedy team, you can't use it when the D squad prevent the forwards to counterstrike properly by having the plays stop in your zone.
Sure buddy...spot on.

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Old
09-14-2010, 10:00 PM
  #62
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They've become awful D but PG is keeping them because he didn't have the cojones to get top defencemen in the summer.

I don't get how you would say Hamm and Spacek did a good job last year when they've had more turnovers than every D in the damn league. The team spend time and time in their zone because these two duffuses fumble the pucks so much. For a supposed speedy team, you can't use it when the D squad prevent the forwards to counterstrike properly by having the plays stop in your zone.


Without Spacek or Hamrlik, winning games in the first 30 games would have been nearly impossible(this was highlighted many times by Pierre McGuire earlier in the season as well as other professional analysts on tsn i.e the panel). Spacek in the playoffs was praised by every analyst for his brilliant work against Ovechkin. There were no complaints about Hamrlik(or hardly any) until the Caps series, he finished the series strong after being called out and the complaints faded in the next two rounds in regards to him.

People look at age and start complaining rather than looking at the game with their own two eyes(the same goes with the size crap). If you(by you I mean posters in general) use the latter more often than the former, most here would save themselves the embarrassment of looking like a fool.

Montreal's strongest point this season is their defensive core. It's underrated and is far from a problem.

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09-14-2010, 10:11 PM
  #63
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[QUOTE=WestIslander;27770967]
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salary wise, they are a two headed burden of 9,3M
but right now, I don't see anyone for whom we can trade or any dman who can replace them as effectively.[/QUOTE]

Subban, Picard, O'Byrne, Carle and Weber

Right now we can play with:

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
O'Byrne - Picard

No?
Problem with that is that Weber is not solid enough defensively, nor is Picard. If people think Spacek and Hamrlik are similar, then Weber and Picard are twins. Carle is too injury-prone to take the spot of one of the two vets on D.

I've always wanted to trade Spacek because he had a terrible year last year even if he didn't play on the left side. At that point, it shouldn't matter as much if a professional hockey player plays on the left side or the right side. sure, things change and i would understand is Spacek would be a bit worse, but he went from 45 points to 21... And people say that it was because he played on the wrong side. Right now though, we need to make sure Markov comes back healthy before trading someone, unless we want another Jay Leach type of player...

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09-14-2010, 11:09 PM
  #64
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Both Hamr and Spacek can deliver super hockey IF they don't have to play too many minutes. The fact is that last year these two guys spent the whole season as the #1 pairing having to face the league's #1 lines. If they can be moved out of those slots and given more rest and a lower average level of opposition, they can contribute huge amounts both in game play and in mentoring the younger guys. But if they get asked to play roles like they had to do most of last year... that could be a real disaster.

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09-14-2010, 11:41 PM
  #65
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Both Hamr and Spacek can deliver super hockey IF they don't have to play too many minutes. The fact is that last year these two guys spent the whole season as the #1 pairing having to face the league's #1 lines. If they can be moved out of those slots and given more rest and a lower average level of opposition, they can contribute huge amounts both in game play and in mentoring the younger guys. But if they get asked to play roles like they had to do most of last year... that could be a real disaster.
Super Hockey? Really?

Bottom line is - guys making 5.5 and 3.6 mill should be more than 4th or 5th d-men on any team.

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09-15-2010, 12:20 AM
  #66
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The point he's making is that they aren't young anymore and if guys like Gorges, Gill, Subban, Markov, etc get injured and they have to step it up, play more ice time etc they'll get gassed again and thus under perform again.

It's a completely valid point actually. I don't get what is so mind boggling about the statements being made.
Relax

The point I am making is that we have done just fine with these guys so far . . . and they are actually pretty durable despite their age only a year later. Hammer played 94 games for us last season. Makes no sense to label them as a liability because they were overworked while others were getting hurt. The younger guys didn't handle it. They were the ones getting hurt.

Anything mind boggling about that?


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09-15-2010, 12:25 AM
  #67
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Super Hockey? Really?

Bottom line is - guys making 5.5 and 3.6 mill should be more than 4th or 5th d-men on any team.
EXACTLY.

People say that "without Hamrlik we'd be a lottery team"... Well obviously. With 5.5m of salary I'd hope he'd do more than not be a liability!

He's overpaid, overrated, non-physical, HAS NO SHOT, CANNOT SKATE WITH THE PUCK and IS OUT OF SHAPE.

He is a smart, positional #4 d-man. Worth 3m at the most.

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09-15-2010, 01:12 AM
  #68
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Supertramp View Post
EXACTLY.

People say that "without Hamrlik we'd be a lottery team"... Well obviously. With 5.5m of salary I'd hope he'd do more than not be a liability!

He's overpaid, overrated, non-physical, HAS NO SHOT, CANNOT SKATE WITH THE PUCK and IS OUT OF SHAPE.

He is a smart, positional #4 d-man. Worth 3m at the most.
What?..Hamrlik is overpaid??...

You mean, Gomez doesn't deserve 8M either??????....

What else?..Spacek should score more than 3G???


Hamrlik is so out of shape, he was the most used Dman last season averaging 23+Min/GP. I hope he comes to camp in shape this year!...Maybe he'll be able to average 30Min/GP!

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09-15-2010, 01:22 AM
  #69
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He's overpaid, overrated, non-physical, HAS NO SHOT, CANNOT SKATE WITH THE PUCK and IS OUT OF SHAPE.
He tries his best and he was actually more physical when he was younger .. last year he really was a much slower and less physical player.

I'm predicting an even more 'physical' decline in his game this year.

Sure if everyone stays healthy he can fill in at the bottom pairing guy and look ok.

But if he's called upon for top ice time our 5.5 cap hit player won't make it through the season. We better hope Gorges, Markov, PK and Spacek remain healthy.

Of course, if he wasn't making 5.5 than all this would be a non-issue.


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09-15-2010, 01:24 AM
  #70
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Spacek and Hammer are perfectly fine as our second pairing for the next season. There is literally nothing to worry about these guys. They bring stable play, good positioning, leadership, experience to young guys like O'Byrne and Subban, and great depth. Are they incredibly mobile anymore? Hell no. But they still have a decent first pass, can chip in with offense, and know how to play the game when trying to keep it simple. At times last season, Spacek and Hammer were relied on to be our number one pairing, they proved their worth and then some many times last season. They did have stumbles, just like any other player or stretches of bad play, or bad games, but for the most part, they were very consistent and useful despite their age.

The only thing I would be worried about is how to effectively replace them. With both of them only having 1 or 2 years left on their contracts, they need to replaced. They are purely stop gaps at this point, but very effective ones at that. A deal for a young two way defensemen or an off season signing needs to be put into place when Hammer's cap money is freed up this summer.

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09-15-2010, 01:26 AM
  #71
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He tries his best and he was actually more physical in years past .. last year he really was a much slower and less physical player.

I'm predicting an even more 'physical' decline in his game this year.

Sure if everyone stays healthy he can fill in at the bottom pairing guy and look ok.

But if he's called upon for top ice time our 5.5 cap hit player won't make it through the season. We better hope Gorges, Markov, PK and Spacek remain healthy.

Of course, if he wasn't making 5.5 than all this would be a non-issue.
I don't see any reason why Hammer can not be just as successful as in the past playing 15-18 mins a night on the second pairing. There is a lot of depth on the team that can fill in other roles and distribute the ice time.

Sometimes people forget that Hammer was our 5th best scorer in the playoffs, and it irks me.

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09-15-2010, 01:38 AM
  #72
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I don't see any reason why Hammer can not be just as successful as in the past playing 15-18 mins a night on the second pairing. There is a lot of depth on the team that can fill in other roles and distribute the ice time.

Sometimes people forget that Hammer was our 5th best scorer in the playoffs, and it irks me.
At 5.5 million the team relies on d-man in this range to put in 25 mins a night.

Hamrlik looked like he was on his last set of legs all of last year...he managed to get by but he fell apart in the 1st round


If he does those minutes again this year he wouldn't last until December.

Sure, PK could be the counter balance (low cap hit, top pairing player).... but now we're putting Calder like expectations on the rookie. And all this is assuming Markov remains healthy this year and is skating like his old self.


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09-15-2010, 03:03 AM
  #73
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While I agree with the thread I think while hamrlik was a little slow, he still had some good moments where he made some safe, and sometimes opportunistic plays. He had 9 points in 19 games as a d-man last playoff. One could argue that was his best playoff statistically of his career. Our best bet for next year is to limit his ice time a bit. He can play some big minutes but I'd rather he doesn't on a consistent basis. I really hope subban, o'byrne and gorges get increased ice time because these are guys who will be with the team in 2 years unlike spacek and hamrlik.

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09-15-2010, 03:16 AM
  #74
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At 5.5 million the team relies on d-man in this range to put in 25 mins a night.
Instead of looking at a UFA contract that was signed 4 years ago, why don't you just stick to what he brings on the ice? Who cares if he makes $5.5 million, Josh Gorges makes $1.1 million. You can't always gauge player's play/stats by how much they make.

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Hamrlik looked like he was on his last set of legs all of last year...he managed to get by but he fell apart in the 1st round
Yeah, but he also bounced back and played well throughout the next round and a half. Hamrlik is on his last legs, in a sense, but he is still an effective #3-4 on just about every team in this league.

Quote:
If he does those minutes again this year he wouldn't last until December. Sure, PK could be the counter balance (low cap hit, top pairing player).... but now we're putting Calder like expectations on the rookie. And all this is assuming Markov remains healthy this year and is skating like his old self.
Well, hopefully Markov isn't out for half the season, Spacek doesn't miss time, and the defense core isn't so banged up we need to sign a UFA defensemen after the season has started. There were times when Hammer was the only stable guy out there on defense last year. If we stay relatively healthy(we do have 7 NHL defensemen and Picard to work with). He, like I said will be looking at the 15-18 minute range, depending on PP time.

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09-15-2010, 05:16 AM
  #75
Flambergius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Also, what if it's only Markov and Gorges that can put up 20+ Min consistently??..
...
Really, you're making an issue out of nothing it seems.
*shurg*

The whole thread is about what happens if we get injuries to our defense. In that context, it seems to me that we have an issue: not enough players that can step up to first/second pairings - or are young players that haven't been tested at that level. Now, I can be wrong in my evaluation of the risk, happens all the time, but still seems more than nothing to me.

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