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Report: "screaming matches" with DeBoer led to Ballard trade

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Old
09-15-2010, 05:12 PM
  #26
Laus723
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
probably neither here nor there. i'm not sold on pete but a shouting match or two, especially with the **** season ballard had last year (had to know CH would show up and try to excuse ballard) really doesn't mean that much.

and it's rather irresponsible for this writer to say:



with no substantiation, i give that absolutely no weight.

ultimately, the proof is seen on the ice. can this team establish an identity and play to it night in and night out? i'm not talking about wins and losses, i'm talking about consistent effort, adherence to systems/philosophies, compete, etc. it seemed like they were on the right track 2 years ago (it wasn't *all* vokoun and andy) but last year was not as encouraging. there have obviously been mitigating circumstances, though (personnel, management, ownership, learning curve, etc.) as well.

the reality is that it's not about which system or philosophy you install, it's whether the guys in the room buy what you're selling. i think the jury is still out on pete, imo.
I don't think the jury is still out, I think Pete lost a lot of credibility with the Boynton fiasco. Team wasn't the same after that, and if he got into it with Nick, I have no reason to doubt that it's happened several times since.

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09-15-2010, 05:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
I don't think the jury is still out, I think Pete lost a lot of credibility with the Boynton fiasco. Team wasn't the same after that, and if he got into it with Nick, I have no reason to doubt that it's happened several times since.
well, that's your opinion. if the rest of the world believed the same however, he wouldn't be coaching anymore. so that's clearly not the case. i do agree that it's likely he mishandled that situation (and it probably affected ballard) but he was a rookie coach; *nobody* steps into a situation like that and performs flawlessly. now one would hope he'd learn and that the team's performance last year would reflect that fact. however, the dynamic inside that room is complicated and if ballard and a few others still held a grudge (a pretty immature thing to do imo for a vet but would fit with my overall opinion of ballard), that'd throw a large wrench into the works. in short, i don't doubt that a few guys have been dropping crumbs around trying to undermine pete. i don't, however, think it means he's incompetent or incapable of learning how to handle pros. it'll be interesting to see what happens with a new room this year.

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09-15-2010, 06:28 PM
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This gives me a brilliant idea...

"Introducing the new 'Be Like Pete' promotion! If you renew your season tickets TODAY you get to scream at the Panthers player of your choice for twenty minutes."

Yorkman, are you listening?

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09-15-2010, 07:20 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
well, that's your opinion. if the rest of the world believed the same however, he wouldn't be coaching anymore. so that's clearly not the case. i do agree that it's likely he mishandled that situation (and it probably affected ballard) but he was a rookie coach; *nobody* steps into a situation like that and performs flawlessly. now one would hope he'd learn and that the team's performance last year would reflect that fact. however, the dynamic inside that room is complicated and if ballard and a few others still held a grudge (a pretty immature thing to do imo for a vet but would fit with my overall opinion of ballard), that'd throw a large wrench into the works. in short, i don't doubt that a few guys have been dropping crumbs around trying to undermine pete. i don't, however, think it means he's incompetent or incapable of learning how to handle pros. it'll be interesting to see what happens with a new room this year.
he's on the hot seat. Do I think they held a "grudge," not really, just think that there are things that stick with certain players. I'm sure that incident stuck with a lot of the guys. immature, no, that's reality.

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09-15-2010, 07:25 PM
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I don't think Ballard was getting revenge for Boynton at all with that interview, it sounded like Ballard was being honest and agreed with Deboer for trying to get the best out of your players. I think it's a little bit of a pipe dream to think that a coach of a professional sports team will not have a screaming/yelling match with his players from time to time, because it's part of the game. Whether we think Deboer is treating these players like "Juniors" or not is clearly speculation because we have no idea what he is thinking.
I do think he brought out a lot of good things in this team, such as we were a faster, more up-paced and offensive minded team instead of pure defense. We did get 93 points that year, even if we missed the post season. The Boynton and Boumeester thing most-likely caused our downward spiral out of the playoffs, but what do you expect from a 1st year pro coach, with a sub-par hockey team and a mess of a franchise???
Either way, I think Tallon will do the right thing with this franchise, even if it means getting a new head coach. I want someone who will motivate the players and get the best out of them, but also be well respected by the players as well.

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09-15-2010, 07:27 PM
  #31
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Sutter had the same sort of problem with Devils players. When these guys come over they don't know the difference. He'll get better with time though. I'm sure he yelled at Ballard for killing Vokoun and scoring on himself. In which case, who blames him?

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09-15-2010, 07:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
he's on the hot seat. Do I think they held a "grudge," not really, just think that there are things that stick with certain players. I'm sure that incident stuck with a lot of the guys. immature, no, that's reality.
it's all speculation so it's pointless to go further.

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Sutter had the same sort of problem with Devils players. When these guys come over they don't know the difference. He'll get better with time though. I'm sure he yelled at Ballard for killing Vokoun and scoring on himself. In which case, who blames him?
indeed.

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09-15-2010, 08:25 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
This gives me a brilliant idea...

"Introducing the new 'Be Like Pete' promotion! If you renew your season tickets TODAY you get to scream at the Panthers player of your choice for twenty minutes."

Yorkman, are you listening?
Great idea! And to balance the scales, as befits this PC era, how about adding PDB dart boards? Every time you hit PDB between the eyes, it plays "Pantherssssss scoooooreee!"

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09-15-2010, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
People also loved blaming Kitchen, as if he wasn't one of DeBoer's guys.
Kitchen was a JM guy. Don't know how many times that has to be said.

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09-15-2010, 09:33 PM
  #35
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Kitchen was a JM guy. Don't know how many times that has to be said.
And DeBoer has credited Kitchen several times for his "success"/transition to the NHL. Don't know how many times that has to be said.

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09-15-2010, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
And DeBoer has credited Kitchen several times for his "success"/transition to the NHL. Don't know how many times that has to be said.
But he's NOT one of DeBoer's guys. You were implying that he was. AND, I don't know where this comes from cause I've never heard this. Links?

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09-15-2010, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
But he's NOT one of DeBoer's guys. You were implying that he was. AND, I don't know where this comes from cause I've never heard this. Links?
If DeBoer was so opposed to Kitchen, Kitchen would've left before this year, seeing as how this organization has praised DeBoer so much since his arrival, just because of his success in Juniors.

As for the comments on Kitchen...I can't find them right now, but I'll find the link because he definitely said such things about a year ago.

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09-15-2010, 10:49 PM
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I wonder if one of those so called "screaming matches" took place before a game in ATL. Just saying... makes sense if you think about it. His emotions were so high from the yelling match that he did not notice KOing' Vokoun.

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09-15-2010, 11:12 PM
  #39
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http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...er-dale-tallon

I didn't find the quote I was talking about, but anyway...DeBoer wanted his assistants back. Kitchen didn't leave because the organization didn't want him; he left because he got a better job with Chicago.

DeBoer approves of Kitchen's coaching philosophy. You might not remember, but when DeBoer was hired, it was said that he would get to choose his assistants. Kitchen was one of the choices.

Think it was all Martin's decision all you want, but even logic says that the coach has a say in who his assistants are.

DeBoer had no problem with Mike Kitchen being on his staff.

Considering the guy was full of crap when he got here about "accountability," i.e. everyone being held accountable...I'll hold him at least somewhat accountable for that decision.

And even though I can't find the link, he did credit Kitchen for making the transition to the NHL easier for him. I'm sure some people remember the article. I believe it came out on the Panthers main site.

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09-15-2010, 11:47 PM
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Interesting. Similar situation with Benoit Groulx in Rochester. First season found a way to make things happen with what they had.. second season it all imploded as they thought they were going to be better but that didn't work out and they treated players poorly and look what happened.

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09-16-2010, 12:18 AM
  #41
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Well, basically what happened is this:

-It was DeBoer's choice to pick his assistants when he first came in. He talked to both Charron and Kitchen. He decided to let Charron go and retain Kitchen.

-DeBoer did credit Kitchen multiple times on GrowlTV for helping him make a smooth transition into the NHL and for Kitchen being a good coach. Who knows how much of that is BS or the truth, but he seemed sincere and it's out there, people can do what they want with the info.

Kitchen was a JM hire, but DeBoer didn't exactly try to distance himself from him, in fact the opposite seems to be true.

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09-16-2010, 01:05 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Well, basically what happened is this:

-It was DeBoer's choice to pick his assistants when he first came in. He talked to both Charron and Kitchen. He decided to let Charron go and retain Kitchen.

-DeBoer did credit Kitchen multiple times on GrowlTV for helping him make a smooth transition into the NHL and for Kitchen being a good coach. Who knows how much of that is BS or the truth, but he seemed sincere and it's out there, people can do what they want with the info.

Kitchen was a JM hire, but DeBoer didn't exactly try to distance himself from him, in fact the opposite seems to be true.
Yup.

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Old
09-16-2010, 05:00 AM
  #43
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i just dont think pdb and tallon has the same type of hockey in their plans... i see tallon trying to build a gritty team with hard workers, when in the past 2 seasons pdb has only given those type of players (tarnasty, mcardle, belak, duco etc) a small number of minutes per game.. because he doesnt know how to use them.

I believe just like some other poster said, he wont get fired this season due to money reasons, but his contract is up after this one and im hoping we get a tallon type of coach or maybe weber, but we'll see how he does in rochester first...

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09-16-2010, 08:29 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...er-dale-tallon

I didn't find the quote I was talking about, but anyway...DeBoer wanted his assistants back. Kitchen didn't leave because the organization didn't want him; he left because he got a better job with Chicago.

DeBoer approves of Kitchen's coaching philosophy. You might not remember, but when DeBoer was hired, it was said that he would get to choose his assistants. Kitchen was one of the choices.

Think it was all Martin's decision all you want, but even logic says that the coach has a say in who his assistants are.

DeBoer had no problem with Mike Kitchen being on his staff.

Considering the guy was full of crap when he got here about "accountability," i.e. everyone being held accountable...I'll hold him at least somewhat accountable for that decision.

And even though I can't find the link, he did credit Kitchen for making the transition to the NHL easier for him. I'm sure some people remember the article. I believe it came out on the Panthers main site.
This is the Florida Panthers we are talking about. Things aren't done the same damnit. If you don't realize that, you're either new, naive, or playing the dumb card.

Word it how you want, but truth of the matter is Kitchen WAS NOT a DeBoer guy. He might have kept him around, but he did not pick him. Might he have helped him transition to the NHL, sure, not denying that, but he was a ****** JM layover all the way, no denying that either.

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09-16-2010, 10:09 AM
  #45
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i just dont think pdb and tallon has the same type of hockey in their plans... i see tallon trying to build a gritty team with hard workers, when in the past 2 seasons pdb has only given those type of players (tarnasty, mcardle, belak, duco etc) a small number of minutes per game.. because he doesnt know how to use them.

I believe just like some other poster said, he wont get fired this season due to money reasons, but his contract is up after this one and im hoping we get a tallon type of coach or maybe weber, but we'll see how he does in rochester first...
I remember reading in several articles right after DT was hired, that he had met with PDB several times, and i remember getting the impression that they were absolutely on the same page in terms of the future, etc..

That could mean absolutely nothing, or it could mean they'll mold well together as a team gets put into place...

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09-16-2010, 10:30 AM
  #46
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probably neither here nor there. i'm not sold on pete but a shouting match or two, especially with the **** season ballard had last year (had to know CH would show up and try to excuse ballard) really doesn't mean that much.

and it's rather irresponsible for this writer to say:



with no substantiation, i give that absolutely no weight.

ultimately, the proof is seen on the ice. can this team establish an identity and play to it night in and night out? i'm not talking about wins and losses, i'm talking about consistent effort, adherence to systems/philosophies, compete, etc. it seemed like they were on the right track 2 years ago (it wasn't *all* vokoun and andy) but last year was not as encouraging. there have obviously been mitigating circumstances, though (personnel, management, ownership, learning curve, etc.) as well.

the reality is that it's not about which system or philosophy you install, it's whether the guys in the room buy what you're selling. i think the jury is still out on pete, imo.
Damn right I am!
You don't think his being poorly paired has more to do with the coaches than him just being fart-brained?
Think about who's he's been paired with, who he works well with and who he doesn't...(obviously IMO-) he was looking the best with Boynton and Garrison (Not bad at all with Skrastins, but he was Bouw's better half down that stretch)...and he was usually stuck with someone else. He had no chemistry with Bouwmeester, McCabe, Allen, Kulikov, and Seidenberg (nothing against Seiden here, they just looked to be of similar minds and seemed to get in each other's way..)

It's totally up to the coaches to notice chemistry, when they don't (and there is clearly something to notice) I blame them.

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09-16-2010, 10:33 AM
  #47
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I wonder what Mike Duco thinks of all this.

I love that fireball, hopefully we actually use him before we lose him to someone that will.

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09-16-2010, 10:42 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Jokinen View Post
I remember reading in several articles right after DT was hired, that he had met with PDB several times, and i remember getting the impression that they were absolutely on the same page in terms of the future, etc..

That could mean absolutely nothing, or it could mean they'll mold well together as a team gets put into place...
well i dont think tallon would come out his first week and say the opposite, so idk how much of that he really meant.
we'll just have to wait and see

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09-16-2010, 10:56 AM
  #49
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are we *really* going to start this again???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Well, basically what happened is this:

-It was DeBoer's choice to pick his assistants when he first came in. He talked to both Charron and Kitchen. He decided to let Charron go and retain Kitchen.

-DeBoer did credit Kitchen multiple times on GrowlTV for helping him make a smooth transition into the NHL and for Kitchen being a good coach. Who knows how much of that is BS or the truth, but he seemed sincere and it's out there, people can do what they want with the info.

Kitchen was a JM hire, but DeBoer didn't exactly try to distance himself from him, in fact the opposite seems to be true.
precisely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
This is the Florida Panthers we are talking about. Things aren't done the same damnit. If you don't realize that, you're either new, naive, or playing the dumb card.

Word it how you want, but truth of the matter is Kitchen WAS NOT a DeBoer guy. He might have kept him around, but he did not pick him. Might he have helped him transition to the NHL, sure, not denying that, but he was a ****** JM layover all the way, no denying that either.
a ****** JM layover? he's a VERY well qualified NHL coach. he was chosen by JM, who has shown he's still a top defensive mind in the league, regardless of what you think about his tactics. he got the job done in his first year back behind the bench. and kitchen will do just fine assisting in chicago. our problems were not kitchen's doing. stop scapegoating.

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09-16-2010, 10:58 AM
  #50
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Damn right I am!
You don't think his being poorly paired has more to do with the coaches than him just being fart-brained?
Think about who's he's been paired with, who he works well with and who he doesn't...(obviously IMO-) he was looking the best with Boynton and Garrison (Not bad at all with Skrastins, but he was Bouw's better half down that stretch)...and he was usually stuck with someone else. He had no chemistry with Bouwmeester, McCabe, Allen, Kulikov, and Seidenberg (nothing against Seiden here, they just looked to be of similar minds and seemed to get in each other's way..)

It's totally up to the coaches to notice chemistry, when they don't (and there is clearly something to notice) I blame them.


oh the lengths you'll go to, my man! excellent try.

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