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Chris Kreider new top prospect for New York Rangers

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Old
09-19-2010, 10:48 AM
  #126
Tony D63
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Wow giving Kreider is very generous giving a 8.5C. I personally think he can be a step under Parise, and that is pretty big.

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09-19-2010, 10:53 AM
  #127
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Next year:

Kreider--Stepan--Gaborik


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09-19-2010, 11:00 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Then he'll be one of the few players of his ilk to overcome that hurdle. Most facing this issue do not.



And I trust history and my own judgement. Both have steered me pretty well, at least when it comes to hockey. The rest of my life...well, that's a different matter.

That said, Paul Vincent is a highly respected hockey guy and I'll take note of his opinion.



Nor can you teach a twentysomething what someone else has been learning and incorporating into their game nearly all their life.
You sure as heck can if it was not true in the first place. Amazing how the guys who dont have world class speed are all geniuses because they have to pull up and dish it but the guys with it and who use it are stupid players and dont get it.

I have watched Kreider since he was a kid and saw him do things on the ice that pros did at 14 as a freshmen in hs. Have scouted for years and can assure you this kid has a very nice hockey IQ. Anyone that tells you different heard it from a good old boy who heard it from another good old boy, who neevr saw him play...

I just read an article on here that said Kevin Hayes is a great skater but skill level is just avg. The fact is that it is 100% the exact opposite. People will repat that now but in Chicago, PV etc they laughed their A off when they read it.

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09-19-2010, 11:05 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Then he'll be one of the few players of his ilk to overcome that hurdle. Most facing this issue do not.



And I trust history and my own judgement. Both have steered me pretty well, at least when it comes to hockey. The rest of my life...well, that's a different matter.

That said, Paul Vincent is a highly respected hockey guy and I'll take note of his opinion.



Nor can you teach a twentysomething what someone else has been learning and incorporating into their game nearly all their life.
Facing this issue? What issue and who are these "most" that went into their frosh year with questions about IQ, developed it significantly in the first year (thus dispelling rumors that he CANT pick it up) and recieve praise about their development of this impossible to pick up IQ stuff across the board?

I just have serious doubts how many prospects you'll be able to draw parallels to this situation. If you can great but otherwise you're making allusions to players who don't exist to back up your arguement.

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09-19-2010, 12:38 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
What do you see and where did anyone say we were simply going by what Leslie writes?
I write long enough posts that you can focus on what is explicitly written rather than invent things.
In my opinion who ever says that Kreider has elite pucks skills and above average hockey IQ (at this level) either don't know what they're looking for, haven't seen him or are major homers (or any combination of those). Then he has a lot of other good things to him, and that's why he is a very interesting prospect.

I am NOT saying he is not a very good prospect. Only that HF rankings are even more meaningless than we usually accept they are if a Chris Kreider is labelled one of the 10 best prospect not in the NHL. You feel me? It makes no sense. You defend this, hence we continue the merry go round.

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Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
The book on him is that IF he can continue to improve these mental deficiencies the way that he did last year he should be labeled elite.
Fine. Then consider him elite ONCE HE GIVES AN INDICATION that he can! Btw. - this is important - it isn't a mental deficiency/ies.
It is rare to have elite level skills in the O-zone and very high hockey IQ. That's why you can't just assume that a player who doesn't have it can obtain it, regardless of what tools he otherwise have, and regardless of him going from a non-competitive league to college and not looking like a mule.

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Isn't this swedish league with a much wider rink and less physical play conducive to scoring more though?
That's just the kind of question that makes me almost give up right then and there. The short answer is NO. Scoring is lower in the SEL than it is in any of the major US leagues at any level. And in Russia it is still lower. Small rinks is conducive to HIGHER scoring.

Anyway - I've gone on long enough, and if you believe that it makes sense for Kreider to be rated 8.5C, then by all means.
My sole point here has been to say why I think it does not. And yes, that is an entirely meaningless objective no matter if we agree or not. I know .

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09-19-2010, 12:44 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I write long enough posts that you can focus on what is explicitly written rather than invent things.
In my opinion who ever says that Kreider has elite pucks skills and above average hockey IQ (at this level) either don't know what they're looking for, haven't seen him or are major homers (or any combination of those). Then he has a lot of other good things to him, and that's why he is a very interesting prospect.

I am NOT saying he is not a very good prospect. Only that HF rankings are even more meaningless than we usually accept they are if a Chris Kreider is labelled one of the 10 best prospect not in the NHL. You feel me? It makes no sense. You defend this, hence we continue the merry go round.



Fine. Then consider him elite ONCE HE GIVES AN INDICATION that he can! Btw. - this is important - it isn't a mental deficiency/ies.
It is rare to have elite level skills in the O-zone and very high hockey IQ. That's why you can't just assume that a player who doesn't have it can obtain it, regardless of what tools he otherwise have, and regardless of him going from a non-competitive league to college and not looking like a mule.



That's just the kind of question that makes me almost give up right then and there. The short answer is NO. Scoring is lower in the SEL than it is in any of the major US leagues at any level. And in Russia it is still lower. Small rinks is conducive to HIGHER scoring.

Anyway - I've gone on long enough, and if you believe that it makes sense for Kreider to be rated 8.5C, then by all means.
My sole point here has been to say why I think it does not. And yes, that is an entirely meaningless objective no matter if we agree or not. I know .
There are few less productive pursuits than arguing as an outsider against another team's prospect on their own board, TR. And that goes for any team.

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09-19-2010, 12:47 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
There are few less productive pursuits than arguing as an outsider against another team's prospect on their own board, TR. And that goes for any team.
I know . If their top rated prospect had been Derek Stepan though, this would have never happened! So I blame their HF writer .

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09-19-2010, 02:36 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by rangersfan212 View Post
You sure as heck can if it was not true in the first place. Amazing how the guys who dont have world class speed are all geniuses because they have to pull up and dish it but the guys with it and who use it are stupid players and dont get it.
Amazing that you reduce the entire concept of hockey sense/IQ to passing. Passing is one of many, many aspects that go into this. And frankly, a willingness to pass is hardly the concern for me when it comes to Kreider. I've seen him enough to know that he is not a selfish player.

His positioning, his decision making, his instincts, knowing WHEN and WHERE to pass, though...that's a different story. And again, I'm not saying he's poor in any of these categories, just that I don't think he's strong enough here to become the kind of superstar some people are ready to anoint him as. Great players in this league come in many sizes and shapes, but most have something in common: they're very strong when it comes to these characteristics.

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I have watched Kreider since he was a kid and saw him do things on the ice that pros did at 14 as a freshmen in hs. Have scouted for years and can assure you this kid has a very nice hockey IQ. Anyone that tells you different heard it from a good old boy who heard it from another good old boy, who neevr saw him
play...
Didn't you just trash scouts?

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Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
Facing this issue? What issue and who are these "most" that went into their frosh year with questions about IQ, developed it significantly in the first year (thus dispelling rumors that he CANT pick it up) and recieve praise about their development of this impossible to pick up IQ stuff across the board?

I just have serious doubts how many prospects you'll be able to draw parallels to this situation. If you can great but otherwise you're making allusions to players who don't exist to back up your arguement.
Are you serious? You're asking me to name you prospects who were drafted based on their physical skills and weren't able to develop a mental game? I'm pretty sure you can throw a rock and hit plenty in any NHL dressing room.

If you're talking about highly-touted players, first round picks, guys like that then just off the top of my head, you've got guys like Alexeev, Jessiman, our very own Brian Boyle, Scott Parker, Taylor Pyatt. Mark Bell is another guy. One of my favorite busts ever, Jeff Heerema. The 97 draft I believe was full of them. People were going crazy for tall, 220 pounders that year.

Then you've got speedy guys who relied on their legs to excel in juniors and earlier like Fata, but couldn't cut it in the NHL where you aren't necessarily the fastest guy on the ice every night anymore.

These are guys who were physically gifted enough to have a distinct advantage over their peers growing up. Once you get to a league where practically everyone has impressive physical gifts, your ability to process information correctly and quickly becomes of the utmost importance. But if you haven't been trained to do that, if doing that isn't something you've learned to do instinctively for years, working it into your repertoire is very difficult.

The fact is, the NHL has more than a few front-office types who aren't particularly great at evaluating talent, regardless if they themselves were talented as players. These people fall head over heels in love with a guy who is big, fast or both, and dominates at lower levels. They gamble on the idea that players will pick up systems and tactics, but more often than not, they lose that bet. Thats why I love when young kids are being coached a certain way to learn these things at a young age, even if they have the size and/or speed.

Like I said before, watch what happens to Nino in a few years. Like Kreider, he's going to be a good player. Still, there's going to be a bit of a shock to the system when he realizes he can't just muscle his way through anymore. This isn't the pre-lockout NHL where a Bertuzzi could just bash his way to any spot on the ice he wanted.

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09-19-2010, 02:54 PM
  #134
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Probably a very stupid question but why isn´t Kreider in camp? Is he hurt? I didnt realize he was not on the training camp roster til now

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09-19-2010, 02:59 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by TrueBlueNorwegian View Post
Probably a very stupid question but why isn´t Kreider in camp? Is he hurt? I didnt realize he was not on the training camp roster til now
he didnt turn pro.

he opted to go back to college for (at least) 1 more year. a smart decision, hes still got a lot to learn at that level.

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09-19-2010, 04:01 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I know . If their top rated prospect had been Derek Stepan though, this would have never happened! So I blame their HF writer .
Well looking at your own prospects and ratings Tangradi as an 8.0B and Despres as an 8.0C. They both look very good to me but I think they're overrated as well. I'd much rather have Kreider than either of them. Tangradi's upside seems to be someone like a Claude Lemieux but he might not be nearly that good. He does look like a top 6 with some skill and grit. He doesn't stand out in any particular skill like Kreider does. Despres might become a top 2 defender but more likely a 3-4. Definitely not No.1 material.

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09-19-2010, 04:38 PM
  #137
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There are some very long posts in this thread and I'm joining mid-way through, so I'll keep it simple: What I saw from Kreider last year actually showed me GOOD hockey sense. Seriously.

I think most of the criticisms of him stem from the fact that we haven't seen much in the way of him building an offensive play. On almost every offensive play I watched (saw him in the WJC championship as well as every game in the NCAA tourney), almost all of his offense came off the rush. He did very little to generate clever offensive plays off of sustained 30-60 second pressure in the offensive zone.

But that didn't show me a lack of hockey IQ - quite the opposite. What I actually saw was a player who had been given bottom line responsibilities by his coach (a player mind you who had never before had to do anything other than take the puck and simply attack) and was therefore thinking defense first. He made sure that he was covering his teammates and that there was never an odd man rush against. I don't recall him ever being out of position in the defensive zone. And yet he still scored almost a goal a game in the second half of the year.

We'll see how he performs this year with what I assume will be dramatically increased offensive responsibility, but given how quickly he adapted from playing what was basically pond hockey all his life to joining the men's national team in the space of 8 months, I have a great deal of confidence he will impress you all.

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09-19-2010, 06:54 PM
  #138
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHOFyATBRww

Here is Chris against defending natl champions BU, toasting Nicastro. An NHL pick and WJC camp invite last season

Puck skills sure look soft to me

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09-19-2010, 07:58 PM
  #139
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watch this move in HD....how the hell can you say he has weak stick handling?



Last edited by nyr2k2: 09-19-2010 at 08:09 PM. Reason: fixed embed
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09-19-2010, 08:08 PM
  #140
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Hey maybe we should allow Kreider to keep playing and developing before we all start making definitive statements about him based off of a few games we've watched in the WJC's or something.

Honestly, I see people here basically calling his career based on seeing a few games of his. Give me a break.

I'm pretty high on the guy but I'm not ready to absolutely identify everything I think is a weakness and pigeon hole him at this point, cuz I frankly just haven't seen enough of his play yet.

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09-19-2010, 08:24 PM
  #141
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I think there are two things going on here: 1) people are, either consciously or subconsciously taking too much account of his draft position. There are a lot of hall of famers that were drafted in the later half of the first round. Kreider most likely would have been picked higher if more scouts had been able to see him his draft year. 2) People around the hockey world just aren't used to the Rangers having elite prospects--myself included.

There is no question that Kreider has the potential to be a 3rd line player--everyone in that draft class with the exception of Duchene and Tavares could be 3rd liners.

Lets also remember that 19 year olds don't play big roles in WJC gold-winning teams, NCAA championship winning teams, and World Championship teams very often. They also aren't usually capable of being ranked among the top 5 skaters in the NHL very often. With Kreider's size and skill set and it's not hard to see why some people think he could be a franchise type player. The truth is that Kreider has an unknown ceiling at this point; there is not a single person that can credibly predict how good this kid could be because he simply hasn't played at a high enough level for long enough to make an accurate assumption. I don't think Kreider even knows how good he could be.

We'll have a better feel for this after this season--let's wait and see what happens.


Last edited by cmdevisser: 09-20-2010 at 06:04 AM.
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09-19-2010, 08:25 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Hey maybe we should allow Kreider to keep playing and developing before we all start making definitive statements about him based off of a few games we've watched in the WJC's or something.

Honestly, I see people here basically calling his career based on seeing a few games of his. Give me a break.

I'm pretty high on the guy but I'm not ready to absolutely identify everything I think is a weakness and pigeon hole him at this point, cuz I frankly just haven't seen enough of his play yet.
Not to mention some people here are up in arms about his rating being an 8.5C
If I remember correctly (and I havent looked in a while so I could be a bit off) that means he could end up being anywhere from an all-star first liner to a grinder if he doesnt reach his potential. The C is the key to the rating, noting that he may not have the tools to reach his potential. Because of his speed he should be a lock to make the NHL. His finish and his work ethic will determine where he goes from there.

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09-19-2010, 08:32 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
His positioning, his decision making, his instincts, knowing WHEN and WHERE to pass, though...that's a different story. And again, I'm not saying he's poor in any of these categories, just that I don't think he's strong enough here to become the kind of superstar some people are ready to anoint him as. Great players in this league come in many sizes and shapes, but most have something in common: they're very strong when it comes to these characteristics.



Didn't you just trash scouts?



Are you serious? You're asking me to name you prospects who were drafted based on their physical skills and weren't able to develop a mental game? I'm pretty sure you can throw a rock and hit plenty in any NHL dressing room.

If you're talking about highly-touted players, first round picks, guys like that then just off the top of my head, you've got guys like Alexeev, Jessiman, our very own Brian Boyle, Scott Parker, Taylor Pyatt. Mark Bell is another guy. One of my favorite busts ever, Jeff Heerema. The 97 draft I believe was full of them. People were going crazy for tall, 220 pounders that year.
To the first bold if you honestly feel that he's at a low level of hockey smarts where it's flat out impossible to ever learn no matter how hard he works and how much he plays than I guess that's your opinion. But where is your evidence that he's so incapable of learning?

Fact is he displayed evidence in bunches that he can pick it up. Dunno if he will but you're saying he won't be able to learn the game to an acceptable level in the next 3-5 years simply b/c he didn't go into his freshman year of college with a high enough level? So you're sold on prospects coming out of high school whether they will ever learn the game properly? That just sounds like a horribly bad, early time to definitively evaluate the ability to pick up hockey IQ, positioning, passing, D, covering etc.

Also you severely missed what I was asking you so you wasted your breathe. I didn't ask you about physical specimens with question marks. I asked you about physical specimens with question marks who also went on to do what Kreider has done this past year followed by the off season of work and praise he's recieved. Leave in the same amount of high school and good college program to learn in too. Hugh Jessiman does not fit that bill at all. Who does? It's good to use similar prospects as references but I just don't see prospects with similar enough situations to warrant using them as a reference and apparently neither do you.

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09-19-2010, 08:34 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
The truth is that Kreider has an unknown ceiling at this point; there is not a single person that can credibly predict how good this kid could be because he simply hasn't played at a high enough level for long enough to make an accurate assumption. I don't think Kreider even knows how good he could be.

We'll have a better feel for this after this season--let's wait and see what happens.
Yeah, kind of the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure we have a real good picture of Kreider yet. We know some stuff but beyond seeing the obvious physical skills I think we really need to see more of his play and see how his development goes

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09-19-2010, 08:41 PM
  #145
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Yeah, kind of the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure we have a real good picture of Kreider yet. We know some stuff but beyond seeing the obvious physical skills I think we really need to see more of his play and see how his development goes
Agree his physical tools are evident but there are questions about the rest of his game and his ability to pick it up.

But that doesn't mean we can say definitively he won't ever pick it up especially since he DID start to pick it up in his first year with a big time hockey program and international play. It's foolish to make any definitive statement either way.

That also goes for saying he's a future superstar. We need another year (really I feel 2) before we know.

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09-19-2010, 09:37 PM
  #146
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watch this move in HD....how the hell can you say he has weak stick handling?
Don't even try and argue anymore, Jordan Caron is a better offensive prospect then Kreider, remember?

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09-20-2010, 03:50 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
To the first bold if you honestly feel that he's at a low level of hockey smarts where it's flat out impossible to ever learn no matter how hard he works and how much he plays than I guess that's your opinion. But where is your evidence that he's so incapable of learning?
Please indicate where I said any of this. Where did I say that he's at a low level of hockey smarts? I don't recall saying that it was flat out impossible for him to learn, or that he was incapable of learning.

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Fact is he displayed evidence in bunches that he can pick it up. Dunno if he will but you're saying he won't be able to learn the game to an acceptable level in the next 3-5 years simply b/c he didn't go into his freshman year of college with a high enough level?
I'm not saying that at all. I don't understand where you got any of this, but not a single part of that corresponds to what my point actually was.

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So you're sold on prospects coming out of high school whether they will ever learn the game properly? That just sounds like a horribly bad, early time to definitively evaluate the ability to pick up hockey IQ, positioning, passing, D, covering etc.
I'm not even sure what this means, but again, it has nothing to do with my point.

Quote:
Also you severely missed what I was asking you so you wasted your breathe. I didn't ask you about physical specimens with question marks. I asked you about physical specimens with question marks who also went on to do what Kreider has done this past year followed by the off season of work and praise he's recieved. Leave in the same amount of high school and good college program to learn in too. Hugh Jessiman does not fit that bill at all. Who does? It's good to use similar prospects as references but I just don't see prospects with similar enough situations to warrant using them as a reference and apparently neither do you.
Again, I'm unsure of what you're saying. What did Kreider do this year, other than continue to mainly face competitors who were unable to contain him physically? Your argument would make a lot more sense if he had spent the year showing that he has incorporated the aforementioned qualities into his game without a problem. But that wasn't the case. Not because he can't or never will, but because he simply didn't. I never said that he can't or never will. What I did say was that most players are unable to make that happen. Most players who developed relying on their physical strengths don't become known for being "heady" players. There are exceptions to every rule, of course.

How about this: why don't you name some players who WERE able to turn that corner?

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09-20-2010, 06:18 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Again, I'm unsure of what you're saying. What did Kreider do this year, other than continue to mainly face competitors who were unable to contain him physically? Your argument would make a lot more sense if he had spent the year showing that he has incorporated the aforementioned qualities into his game without a problem. But that wasn't the case. Not because he can't or never will, but because he simply didn't. I never said that he can't or never will. What I did say was that most players are unable to make that happen. Most players who developed relying on their physical strengths don't become known for being "heady" players. There are exceptions to every rule, of course.

Dude, the longer you type the more desperate, fallacious, and flat out wrong your argument becomes.

Obviously no one in NCAA will ever be able to physically contain Kreider, let's be serious by the time he is in the NHL it is doubtful that there will be many players that can physically contain him. The kid is huge and he has the acceleration of a Ferrari. He's gonna be a freight train when he is finished developing physically.

All that being said, everything that was written about Kreider last season had to do with how well he was playing positionally, how quickly he was adapting to the higher level of play, how willing he was to accept whatever role he was given on the team, etc. This is why all of your rants make little to no sense. What the hell is this kid supposed to do to get the approval of Sting, hockey's future internet opinionator? It seems like Gordie Clark, Jerry York, and the USA hockey are all very pleased with the kid--are they all just idiots that clearly can't see this kid's lack of hockey smarts? ("well I mean, it's not like any of this is bad per se, but clearly it does not meet the arbitrary standard for amazingness set by me, sting, hockey's future opinionator and expert in all things I haven't seen")

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09-20-2010, 06:54 AM
  #149
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Real interesting thread about Kreider. I can see the arguments from both sides. Kreider does have the unique package of size and skating ability that could transform well into the NHL. However, as mentioned there have been tons of prospects the past decade or more who had unique skills but for some reason or another they did not develop as projected into the NHL. However, it does seem that Kreider does have the willingness/character to keep on developing and etc to "Make" it in the NHL.. This really looks like a gem of a draft pick... He started off slow last year in college but did progress nicely at the end of the year. Just getting 8 assists last year in college does show he needs to keep on developing some parts of his game.


This is a big upcoming year for Kreider. With his skillset, he should dominate college hockey (Hobey Baker), and then dominate the WJC. He is playing on a great college team.. Once he does this, he can probably step into the NHL next year as a 20/21 year old....

He just reminds me of a Billy Guerin or a Tony Amonte...

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09-20-2010, 08:40 AM
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rangersfan212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msv957 View Post
Real interesting thread about Kreider. I can see the arguments from both sides. Kreider does have the unique package of size and skating ability that could transform well into the NHL. However, as mentioned there have been tons of prospects the past decade or more who had unique skills but for some reason or another they did not develop as projected into the NHL. However, it does seem that Kreider does have the willingness/character to keep on developing and etc to "Make" it in the NHL.. This really looks like a gem of a draft pick... He started off slow last year in college but did progress nicely at the end of the year. Just getting 8 assists last year in college does show he needs to keep on developing some parts of his game.


This is a big upcoming year for Kreider. With his skillset, he should dominate college hockey (Hobey Baker), and then dominate the WJC. He is playing on a great college team.. Once he does this, he can probably step into the NHL next year as a 20/21 year old....

He just reminds me of a Billy Guerin or a Tony Amonte...
but bigger and faster

You are a product of your enviroment. He played for a prep school coach who gets the job because his family is filthy rich and makes huge donations. Only coach in that league who is not a teacher. Its his "fun:"

He let Kreider run around and spent zero time teaching.

Another kid I have watched closely was a draft pick, word was not good on D, all offense. Went to USHL, played for a good D coach and now after one yyear is known as a very good 2 way, accountable, "smart" dman.

Kreider is smart just like that kid and will be known as a "smart" player before it is done.

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