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Chris Kreider new top prospect for New York Rangers

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Old
09-20-2010, 01:04 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Please indicate where I said any of this. Where did I say that he's at a low level of hockey smarts? I don't recall saying that it was flat out impossible for him to learn, or that he was incapable of learning.



I'm not saying that at all. I don't understand where you got any of this, but not a single part of that corresponds to what my point actually was.



I'm not even sure what this means, but again, it has nothing to do with my point.



Again, I'm unsure of what you're saying. What did Kreider do this year, other than continue to mainly face competitors who were unable to contain him physically? Your argument would make a lot more sense if he had spent the year showing that he has incorporated the aforementioned qualities into his game without a problem. But that wasn't the case. Not because he can't or never will, but because he simply didn't. I never said that he can't or never will. What I did say was that most players are unable to make that happen. Most players who developed relying on their physical strengths don't become known for being "heady" players. There are exceptions to every rule, of course.

How about this: why don't you name some players who WERE able to turn that corner?

So lemme get this straight...you feel like he does not have a hockey IQ level that comes even close to Stepan...therefore he will probably not be elite...yet you never even implied his hockey IQ is undeveloped or low? Be a man and stick by what you know you implied. You implied the kid is lacking in hockey smarts. You compared him to jessiman for christs sake yet now you sit there and act as if that's not what you meant?

Look YOU did not clarify yourself at all. Your arguement is horrible even though I understand where your opinion comes from I now recognize the fact you are clueless as to why youa ctually have that opinion.

Like the guy who responded to you said your arguement is turning into a farce.


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Old
09-20-2010, 01:15 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I write long enough posts that you can focus on what is explicitly written rather than invent things.
In my opinion
who ever says that Kreider has elite pucks skills and above average hockey IQ (at this level) either don't know what they're looking for, haven't seen him or are major homers (or any combination of those). Then he has a lot of other good things to him, and that's why he is a very interesting prospect.

I am NOT saying he is not a very good prospect. Only that HF rankings are even more meaningless than we usually accept they are if a Chris Kreider is labelled one of the 10 best prospect not in the NHL. You feel me? It makes no sense. You defend this, hence we continue the merry go round.



Fine. Then consider him elite ONCE HE GIVES AN INDICATION that he can! Btw. - this is important - it isn't a mental deficiency/ies.
It is rare to have elite level skills in the O-zone and very high hockey IQ. That's why you can't just assume that a player who doesn't have it can obtain it, regardless of what tools he otherwise have, and regardless of him going from a non-competitive league to college and not looking like a mule.



That's just the kind of question that makes me almost give up right then and there. The short answer is NO. Scoring is lower in the SEL than it is in any of the major US leagues at any level. And in Russia it is still lower. Small rinks is conducive to HIGHER scoring.

Anyway - I've gone on long enough, and if you believe that it makes sense for Kreider to be rated 8.5C, then by all means.
My sole point here has been to say why I think it does not. And yes, that is an entirely meaningless objective no matter if we agree or not. I know .
Yea you wrote a shortened version of your opnion because you gave no evidence to back it up. I didn't ask you to explain why you failed to cite any evidence I asked you to actually supply some. You failed to do so which makes me think you have no evidence and this is just your opinion carried from the 09 draft pre scouting reports.

To the third bolded part: Can we not be so melodramatic about things really how old are we? There's a lot more space in the SEL and everyone knows it we talk about it big time with ZUccarrello. There's a lot more physicality to contend with in the NHL rink. Different caliber of players too. I wasn't sure so I asked a question and you react like that?

And as far as giving an indication... that's what I literally have been writing that he HAS been giving the indication he can pick it up. I mean maybe I don't fully understand the dynamics of the SEL but geez you can't even pick up on what's typed on the page in front of you.

How many times did I say he developed much further than anyone anticipated, he displayed a fundamentally sound game all year when no one expected him to coming outta high school where he carried the O, he showed he can pick up the game, but we should still wait another year to see if he can continue to develop, etc etc. If you're not even gonna read the posts why are you responding?

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09-20-2010, 01:27 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by rangersfan212 View Post
You sure as heck can if it was not true in the first place. Amazing how the guys who dont have world class speed are all geniuses because they have to pull up and dish it but the guys with it and who use it are stupid players and dont get it.

I have watched Kreider since he was a kid and saw him do things on the ice that pros did at 14 as a freshmen in hs. Have scouted for years and can assure you this kid has a very nice hockey IQ. Anyone that tells you different heard it from a good old boy who heard it from another good old boy, who neevr saw him play...

I just read an article on here that said Kevin Hayes is a great skater but skill level is just avg. The fact is that it is 100% the exact opposite. People will repat that now but in Chicago, PV etc they laughed their A off when they read it.
BS, and we are talking about apples and oranges here to a extent thats not even funny.

We all know that Kreider is basically a lock to become (at least) a 3rd line 2-way winger, contributing at say the same pace as a Chris Kunitz or someone like that.

Nobody is saying that he is a idiot, will struggle like Zherdev and make a ton of boneheaded plays per shift.

We are talking about what we have in him beyond that. The type of hockeysense that just about anyone I can think of needs to have to score much more then 60-65 pts. In that aspect, Kreider is -- to put it kindly -- extremely raw. He'll do the schoolbook play, but compared to the players with top hockeyinstincts Kreider just isn't in the same stratosphere.

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09-20-2010, 01:30 PM
  #154
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After reading some more posts, Kreider lacks hockeysmarts, I don't know whats the big fuzz about that is.

If he didn't lack hockeysmarts, he is a top 1/2 pick for sure. Does anyone think someone with his engine and body, and hands, and shot, makes it past top 3 in any draft ever if they are as smart as the other elite offensive prospects in that draft????

Wake up.

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09-20-2010, 01:34 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
After reading some more posts, Kreider lacks hockeysmarts, I don't know whats the big fuzz about that is.

If he didn't lack hockeysmarts, he is a top 1/2 pick for sure. Does anyone think someone with his engine and body, and hands, and shot, makes it past top 3 in any draft ever if they are as smart as the other elite offensive prospects in that draft????

Wake up.

Level of competition prior to the draft played into his draft position more than anything.

Hockey smarts had little to do with him being drafted where he was. I don't think hes a genius out there either, but I don't think hes entirely lacking in that department.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but how much of Kreider have you seen?

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09-20-2010, 01:34 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
After reading some more posts, Kreider lacks hockeysmarts, I don't know whats the big fuzz about that is.

If he didn't lack hockeysmarts, he is a top 1/2 pick for sure. Does anyone think someone with his engine and body, and hands, and shot, makes it past top 3 in any draft ever if they are as smart as the other elite offensive prospects in that draft????

Wake up.
Interesting post... Kreider does have the size/skating to be a top 5 or better pick... I think it was his lack of experience in a big time league hurt his chance of being a top 5 pick or better.... If he played in the CHL and played well during his draft year, there is no question Kreider would have been a top 5 pick at worst....

I would think if the draft was done over this year, Kreider would be in the top 5 or better...

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09-20-2010, 01:41 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
This is my list as I have stored on my blackberry (huge dork, I know).

I have Kreider and Stepan ranked evenly.


TOP PROSPECTS:
----------------------
1a. Derek Stepan C. (AHL)
1b. Chris Kreider LW. (NCAA)
3. Evgeny Grachev LW. (AHL)
4. Ryan McDonagh D. (NHL/AHL)
5. Dylan McIlrath D. (CHL)
6. Mats Zuccarello-Aasen RW. (NHL/AHL)
7. Chad Johnson G. (AHL)
8. Ethan Werek C. (CHL)
9. Dale Weise RW. (NHL/AHL)
10. Andrew Yogan C. (CHL)
----------------------
11. Jesper Fasth RW. (SEL)
12. Christian Thomas RW. (CHL)
13. Nigel Williams D. (AHL)
14. Michael Sauer D. (AHL)
15. Mikhail Pashnin D. (KHL)
16. Pavel Valentenko D. (KHL)
17. Tomas Kundratek D. (AHL)
18. Carl Hagelin LW. (NCAA)
19. Ryan Bourque RW. (CHL)
20. Roman Horak LW ()
21. Cameron Talbot G. (AHL)
22. Dane Byers LW. (AHL)
23. Brodie Dupont C. (AHL)
24. Sam Klassen D. ()
25. Daniel Maggio D ()
26. Randy McNaught F()
27. Kelsey Tessier C. (AHL)
28. Jyri Niemi D. (AHL)
29. Scott Stajcer G. (CHL)
30. David Kveton RW. (Czech)
31. David Skokan RW. (Fin)

Yes, I am high on Yogan and Fasth. I feel they will emerge this year as borderline top 10 organizational prospects. I am leery on Thomas' size. Bourque's size has effected him, he suffered three(3) concussions last year alone in QMJHL. That's bad.

And Chad Ochocinco has to be in the top ten. He's a clear favorite to be a long time solution for backup to Lundqvist eventually.

Once we have a couple of graduates this year to the NHL level, guys like Thomas will move up into the top ten.
What's the deal with Yogan? What kind of player is he?

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09-20-2010, 01:53 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
BS, and we are talking about apples and oranges here to a extent thats not even funny.

We all know that Kreider is basically a lock to become (at least) a 3rd line 2-way winger, contributing at say the same pace as a Chris Kunitz or someone like that.

Nobody is saying that he is a idiot, will struggle like Zherdev and make a ton of boneheaded plays per shift.

We are talking about what we have in him beyond that. The type of hockeysense that just about anyone I can think of needs to have to score much more then 60-65 pts. In that aspect, Kreider is -- to put it kindly -- extremely raw. He'll do the schoolbook play, but compared to the players with top hockeyinstincts Kreider just isn't in the same stratosphere.
I mostly agree with you. The only thing I would add is that he's a goal scorer and so far he has shown that he can do that pretty damn well (once he hit his stride he scored almost a goal a game to finish off the season in the NCAA and scored 6 goals in 7 games at the WJ's). I can still see the possibility of him scoring 40 or so goals in the NHL without necessarily having the hockey sense of some other players simply because he's extremely quick, big and has a very good shot.

Hardly likely, but I think the potential is there. I think if you're looking at it realistically though he'll probably be a good second line forward who will score around 25 or 30 goals a season during his prime years and be effective in other areas.

Of course what he does this season should give us much better insight

edit: by the way, did anyone notice that he was a whopping +25 in just 40 games this season? I know that stat is controversial, but that's crazy

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09-20-2010, 02:06 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post

We are talking about what we have in him beyond that. The type of hockeysense that just about anyone I can think of needs to have to score much more then 60-65 pts. In that aspect, Kreider is -- to put it kindly -- extremely raw. He'll do the schoolbook play, but compared to the players with top hockeyinstincts Kreider just isn't in the same stratosphere.
How's Scott Gomez' "hockey sense"?

I don't know - I think most of the users on this forum are relying on other people's opinions of Kreider and speaking as if they've actually talked to the guy or seen him play dozens of times.

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09-20-2010, 02:13 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
After reading some more posts, Kreider lacks hockeysmarts, I don't know whats the big fuzz about that is.

If he didn't lack hockeysmarts, he is a top 1/2 pick for sure. Does anyone think someone with his engine and body, and hands, and shot, makes it past top 3 in any draft ever if they are as smart as the other elite offensive prospects in that draft????

Wake up.
Lol. The reason he didn't go top 3 is because he was coming from such a low level of competition. It's not that teams thought he had a low hockey IQ, it's that teams knew his hockey IQ was mostly undeveloped. But that doesn't mean it can't be developed. Anything who thinks otherwise is out to lunch.

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09-20-2010, 02:48 PM
  #161
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Kreider wasn't even on the map when most of the top picks from 2009 were first getting attention. There were news articles about it later. He wasn't thinking about getting drafted. All he was hoping for was a scholarship to BC or Bu or Harvard or Northeastern. Where he was drafted was in part due to playing 20 some games a year of what amounts to High School hockey. He was an unknown quantity. That's the reason more than any that he didn't go that high. No doubt he's raw--especially in certain areas. He hadn't faced the quality of opposition that most of the other best players had or played anywhere near as many games.

In any case he seemed to pick up things quickly as a freshman BC despite being brought along slowly by his coach. It is an excellent program. The Rangers pushed him a bit to sign over the summer. It tells me that maybe they don't see this big problem or they wouldn't have done that. As it happens he decided to go back to BC for at least one more season anyway. I think it was a smart idea--but even so I think he has the most upside of any of our prospects. Whether he reaches it or how far he goes is another question.

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09-20-2010, 03:12 PM
  #162
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awesome. I checked UVM's schedule. Boston College plays two nights here in Vermont on 11-12 & 11-13.
I'll be at those games!

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Old
09-20-2010, 03:13 PM
  #163
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Humorous...

This thread is humorous....

The kid's got good size/strength, he is fast as hell, good hands, good shot, has a knack for scoring goals and has not looked overmatched or out of place at any level of competition so far (Prep School, NCAA, Frozen Four, Bean Pot, WJC, World Championship, Prospect Camp, Summer Elite Camp etc.)

He came from one of the nation's most elite prep schools in terms of academics, most likely got offers from all the hockey east schools (including Harvard) as well as Yale and other Ivies. All reports are that he is a a very good student, good team mate, fast learner, and has done all the right things to improve any areas of his game that were considered subpar.

Now the big issue is his hockey IQ...LOL.

Can anyone provide a solid example of where his hockey IQ is lacking - would love to hear it. The opinions that matter (Rangers, USA Hockey, BC) would probably think otherwise.

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09-20-2010, 03:16 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Lol. The reason he didn't go top 3 is because he was coming from such a low level of competition. It's not that teams thought he had a low hockey IQ, it's that teams knew his hockey IQ was mostly undeveloped. But that doesn't mean it can't be developed. Anything who thinks otherwise is out to lunch.
Underdeveloped hockey IQ = low hockey IQ.

And I mean, a underdeveloped hockey IQ don't in anyway or form whatsoever guarantee a high hockey IQ. Thats like saying that a soft player will become a tough player just because he haven't been beaten up enough coming out of a soft euro league or something.

Also, many players coming out of lower-leves have higher hockey IQ because of it. MZA is a example of that, and there are plenty of others.

Kreider just suffers from the Daigle doom, he have played at a low level were he were able to pwn everyone with speed and strength and haven't developed his hockey IQ. Thats only negative. He will get no handicap for it, ever.

Besides that Kreider is a machine. He have tremendous speed. He is strong on his skates. He seems to have good attitude. He have good hands.

But again, his hockey-IQ could keep him out of a top 6 position in the NHL. Or he could catch up. But any talk about his hockey-IQ being just fine is nothing but tremendous BS! Compared to the avg prospect with top 6 potential Kreider is pretty clueless on the ice, he is just able to play by the schoolbook.


Last edited by Ola: 09-20-2010 at 03:26 PM.
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Old
09-20-2010, 03:23 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by mackdaddy View Post
This thread is humorous....

The kid's got good size/strength, he is fast as hell, good hands, good shot, has a knack for scoring goals and has not looked overmatched or out of place at any level of competition so far (Prep School, NCAA, Frozen Four, Bean Pot, WJC, World Championship, Prospect Camp, Summer Elite Camp etc.)

He came from one of the nation's most elite prep schools in terms of academics, most likely got offers from all the hockey east schools (including Harvard) as well as Yale and other Ivies. All reports are that he is a a very good student, good team mate, fast learner, and has done all the right things to improve any areas of his game that were considered subpar.

Now the big issue is his hockey IQ...LOL.

Can anyone provide a solid example of where his hockey IQ is lacking - would love to hear it. The opinions that matter (Rangers, USA Hockey, BC) would probably think otherwise.
Lol, have you seen him play? His hockey-IQ is 100% compareable with Ryan Callahan's for example.

Compared to a Rich Nash, he is miles behind. Compared to a Dany Heatly, he is miles behind. Compared to a Derek Roy, he is miles behind. Compared to a Alex Hemsky, he is miles behind. Compared to a Phil Kessel, he is miles behind. Compared to a Gomez, he is miles behind. Compared to a Stamkos, he is miles behind. Compared to a Alex Semin, he is miles behind. Compared to a Jarome Iginla, he is miles behind. Compared to a Zach Parise, he is miles behind. Compared to a Maxim Afinegenov, he is miles behind. Compared to a Marian Gaborik, he is miles behind. Compared to a Simon Gagne, he is miles behind. Compared to a Pat Kane, he is miles behind. Compared to a Ryan Getzlaf, he is miles behind. Compared to a Krejci, he is miles behind.

I mean, I could easily list 30-40 names more. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU NOT POINT OUT THAT HIS HOCKEY-IQ IS LACKING????? Have you ever seen him play?

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09-20-2010, 04:17 PM
  #166
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IQ is a measure of intelligence and potential, no? If you're saying he can "catch up", then that would presumably mean that he's got the wits about him to have good hockey intelligence/sense on the ice. I'm not quite sure how you can say Gaborik or Gomez' "Hockey IQ" is better than Kreiders. Are they more experienced? Sure. That has nothing to do with potential.

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09-20-2010, 05:09 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Lol, have you seen him play? His hockey-IQ is 100% compareable with Ryan Callahan's for example.

Compared to a Rich Nash, he is miles behind. Compared to a Dany Heatly, he is miles behind. Compared to a Derek Roy, he is miles behind. Compared to a Alex Hemsky, he is miles behind. Compared to a Phil Kessel, he is miles behind. Compared to a Gomez, he is miles behind. Compared to a Stamkos, he is miles behind. Compared to a Alex Semin, he is miles behind. Compared to a Jarome Iginla, he is miles behind. Compared to a Zach Parise, he is miles behind. Compared to a Maxim Afinegenov, he is miles behind. Compared to a Marian Gaborik, he is miles behind. Compared to a Simon Gagne, he is miles behind. Compared to a Pat Kane, he is miles behind. Compared to a Ryan Getzlaf, he is miles behind. Compared to a Krejci, he is miles behind.

I mean, I could easily list 30-40 names more. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU NOT POINT OUT THAT HIS HOCKEY-IQ IS LACKING????? Have you ever seen him play?
The problem seems to be that the people on your side of this debate are so steadfastly trying to talk about his UNDEVELOPED hockey IQ that you are ignoring the fact that

WE SAID THIS ALREADY!!!!

His IQ is UNDEVELOPED of course it is compared to all stars like heatley, iginla, and elite scorers like Semin.

Do you guys just not read? I have said and so have others several times his IQ is undeveloped but he DID SHOW HE CAN DEVELOP IT.

Nobody is even guaranteeing that he will develop it all we have said is he showed he has the potential to do so. Guys seriously if you are going to respond can you read the posts.

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09-20-2010, 05:14 PM
  #168
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I agree with what some of you are saying... He fell in the draft because he came from prep school hockey program and his ceiling was very much an unknown based on the competition he faced entering his draft year... Regarding his hockey IQ, he really didn't have to "think" the game too much coming from his high school team because he was that much faster and more physically developed than his peers... He was a one man show out there... That doesn't imply he has a low hockey IQ or that he can't think the game well or develop that aspect of his game...

He also had to learn to play a "team game" per his own interviews which wasn't something he had to do coming out of high school and he seems to have adjusted to that element of his game well thus far...

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09-20-2010, 05:21 PM
  #169
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I agree with what some of you are saying... He fell in the draft because he came from prep school hockey program and his ceiling was very much an unknown based on the competition he faced entering his draft year... Regarding his hockey IQ, he really didn't have to "think" the game too much coming from his high school team because he was that much faster and more physically developed than his peers... He was a one man show out there... That doesn't imply he has a low hockey IQ or that he can't think the game well or develop that aspect of his game...
Agreed I even admitted this several times I understand why guys feel his IQ is underdeveloped and may be the thing that prevents him from reaching his full potential.

Do i say this ONE LAST TIME? I understand why guys feel his IQ is underdeveloped and may be the thing that prevents him from reaching his full potential. I even agree his IQ is currently underdeveloped but that he showed last year he can develop this part of his game.

Nobody has come out and said "I don't think he can" If that's how you feel than that's fine we'll see based on this upcoming season but to sit there and not read the posts and constantly go "Oh he'll never be elite he has an underdeveloped IQ" alright already we get it the 5 guys before you said the same exact thing and refused to even acknowledge the logical responses of myself and several others.

Why would you tell me he has an underdeveloped IQ when I and several others keep AGREEING that he does? We just differ in our opinion of how he developed last year and MAY POSSIBLY continue to develop.
but the guys we are "discussing" this with are either trolling or just unable to decipher meaning

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09-20-2010, 07:04 PM
  #170
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Ola, I tend to respect your takes on these things even if I prefer to be a tad bit more optimistic. That being said I have been truly unimpressed with your posts in this thread because, unlike your usual perspective, this one has not been backed up with many concrete examples. I get that you think his hockey IQ is far behind the elite players in the league/prospects in general. Now what I would love to hear is why you think so.

Please, cite an example of a play or an issue with Kreider's game that I can at least imagine a little more concretely. Is his positioning bad? Is his on-ice awareness bad (and if so, how)? None of the people that are downing Kreider's hockey-IQ have even pointed me in the direction of a time in which it was noticeably lacking. Can we please bring this conversation into the realm of the tangible so we can have an intelligent debate about what Kreider would have to improve on in order to become the elite player his 8.5 suggests he could be?

Thanks

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09-20-2010, 08:04 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
After reading some more posts, Kreider lacks hockeysmarts, I don't know whats the big fuzz about that is.

If he didn't lack hockeysmarts, he is a top 1/2 pick for sure. Does anyone think someone with his engine and body, and hands, and shot, makes it past top 3 in any draft ever if they are as smart as the other elite offensive prospects in that draft????

Wake up.
The reason he fell in the draft was that he was playing in a weak league at the time. It wasn't anything wrong with him, they just thought he was unproven and therefore a risky pick. Based on his play in college and the world juniors, I think it's safe to say that it wasn't just he was in a bad league, he's actually a hell of a player. If that year redrafted he'd shoot up the draft board and be a top pick.

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09-20-2010, 08:39 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
Ola, I tend to respect your takes on these things even if I prefer to be a tad bit more optimistic. That being said I have been truly unimpressed with your posts in this thread because, unlike your usual perspective, this one has not been backed up with many concrete examples. I get that you think his hockey IQ is far behind the elite players in the league/prospects in general. Now what I would love to hear is why you think so.

Please, cite an example of a play or an issue with Kreider's game that I can at least imagine a little more concretely. Is his positioning bad? Is his on-ice awareness bad (and if so, how)? None of the people that are downing Kreider's hockey-IQ have even pointed me in the direction of a time in which it was noticeably lacking. Can we please bring this conversation into the realm of the tangible so we can have an intelligent debate about what Kreider would have to improve on in order to become the elite player his 8.5 suggests he could be?

Thanks
Excellent, excellent post. I too would like to see examples cited.

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Old
09-20-2010, 11:10 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
Ola, I tend to respect your takes on these things even if I prefer to be a tad bit more optimistic. That being said I have been truly unimpressed with your posts in this thread because, unlike your usual perspective, this one has not been backed up with many concrete examples. I get that you think his hockey IQ is far behind the elite players in the league/prospects in general. Now what I would love to hear is why you think so.

Please, cite an example of a play or an issue with Kreider's game that I can at least imagine a little more concretely. Is his positioning bad? Is his on-ice awareness bad (and if so, how)? None of the people that are downing Kreider's hockey-IQ have even pointed me in the direction of a time in which it was noticeably lacking. Can we please bring this conversation into the realm of the tangible so we can have an intelligent debate about what Kreider would have to improve on in order to become the elite player his 8.5 suggests he could be?

Thanks
I'll second Brooklyn here. Nice post. You too mackdaddy.

This season will be an especially good test. No way he steps onto the ice and surprises anybody. He's a known quantity and opponents will be ready.

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Old
09-21-2010, 12:22 AM
  #174
n8
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I would like to know more about this IQ test Kreider has apparently taken and people have apparently seen the results for. I would also like to take this test for fun. How is it so many on this board know about this test and I do not? If I knew about this test, I too could know so much more about our prospects and talk down to other posters. I might even... be qualified to scout players professionally! Seriously though, what the hell are you talking about? A standard IQ test has

1. Verbal Intelligence
2. Mathematical Ability
3. Spatial Reasoning Skills
4. Visual/Perceptual Skills
5. Classification Skills
6. Logical Reasoning Skills
7. Pattern Recognition Skills

What is a hockey IQ supposedly comprised of and how are you scoring players? Don't IQs maintain relatively constant over time? As you get older, the quotient maintains proportional to one's age, yes?

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Old
09-21-2010, 12:30 AM
  #175
Tender Rip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
Yea you wrote a shortened version of your opnion because you gave no evidence to back it up. I didn't ask you to explain why you failed to cite any evidence I asked you to actually supply some. You failed to do so which makes me think you have no evidence and this is just your opinion carried from the 09 draft pre scouting reports.
What kind of evidence?
While college can develop really nice hockey players, I have very little respect for the level of quality compared to other development leagues, as very few of the best prospects go the college way.
The big thing for most young players compared to playing CHL for instance is that they play older guys and thus obviously have some challenges strength wise. This is good for a guy like Nathan Gerbe, as that is always what is going to hold him back.
Kreider doesn't have that issue at all, as he can hold his own when it comes to strength and he consistently beats players for sheer pace. That means that he is in a tremendous position to be a productive player in college.

However, unless he does beat his man one on one, is sent free on a breakaway or goes to the net to muck it up, he was a non-factor on BC when it comes to offense. He doesn't have the awareness to make plays for others with the puck on his stick, which you would agree to if you had been watching him. He can cycle the puck down low because he has those unique gifts, but it is giveaway time when he is coming out of the corners with it. That's just not what you expect in a supposedly elite prospect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
To the third bolded part: Can we not be so melodramatic about things really how old are we? There's a lot more space in the SEL and everyone knows it we talk about it big time with ZUccarrello. There's a lot more physicality to contend with in the NHL rink. Different caliber of players too. I wasn't sure so I asked a question and you react like that?
Well, you're the one asking for 'evidence' and concrete examples, and when you then offer a complete fallacy to support your point, then what do you expect? Its not as if you have the woollen gloves on in your counters .
As for having more space in the SEL and the NA game being more physical... well certainly. That's the x-factor for most any youngster coming over and I'd never make a hash of that. But that wasn't your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
And as far as giving an indication... that's what I literally have been writing that he HAS been giving the indication he can pick it up. I mean maybe I don't fully understand the dynamics of the SEL but geez you can't even pick up on what's typed on the page in front of you.
Yeah, and you have been making literally no sense. It doesn't matter to Kreider's elite prospect ranking that he has been improving when the level from which he is coming is so low in this regard. Michael Del Zotto has been improving his defensive awareness immensely also. It doesn't mean that he is less than a liability unless he is getting third pairing match-ups. But that is in the NHL and given that he is there at the age he is, there's every reason to think he can get it right with time. He is right on track.
Chris Kreider on the other hand was playing in college as one of the fastest players in a league where a standout D-man like his team-mate Carl Sneep won't make our AHL team.
If hockey sense is noticeably a drag for him at that level, there is such a long way to go in terms of it being adequate in the NHL that you have to be genuinely concerned that he makes it further than grinder. Of course, he can get it right and it is a unique situation with him coming from the background he does, but that is still if, if, if territory. Mind, there ARE quite a few Rangers fans on here who clearly see things this way as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
How many times did I say he developed much further than anyone anticipated
If no one anticipated it, he was drafted too high. If he is rated 8.5C displaying just average hockey IQ in college, that is too high. How many times did I say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
he displayed a fundamentally sound game all year when no one expected him to coming outta high school where he carried the O, he showed he can pick up the game, but we should still wait another year to see if he can continue to develop, etc etc. If you're not even gonna read the posts why are you responding?
I read. I just don't think you know what you're talking about .
I do however very much agree that you should wait a year and see if he can dominate next season and show greatly improved instincts and playmaking in the offensive zone. If he can, by all means, he deserves all the accolades and I will never question that he is considered a high end prospect. But when you assume exponential improvement to justify it, I will, because that is extremely rare.

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