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The changing of the guard

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Old
06-04-2004, 02:17 PM
  #26
triggrman
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The ducks rode the back of a goalie, that's it, that's all they've got. Ducks didn't even make the playoffs this season, so they've proved nothing. Carolina made a run two years ago so are they better than the Ducks and the Preds too?

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06-04-2004, 03:36 PM
  #27
kenabnrmal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
The ducks rode the back of a goalie, that's it, that's all they've got. Ducks didn't even make the playoffs this season, so they've proved nothing. Carolina made a run two years ago so are they better than the Ducks and the Preds too?
I expected a better response than this cliched mess. By that argument, so did the Devils. Brodeur had as good a playoff performance as Giguere did. If the Ducks were so vastly inferior in every other area, then they should have made quick work of the Ducks, especially considering Giguere wasn't at his best in the finals. You'd probably suggest the Flames begin and end at Kipper as well. Your suggestion that the Ducks have nothing beyond Giggy is a pretty good sign that I'm wasting my energies here, though.

The Preds made the playoffs for the first time ever this season. They bowed out in the first round. As I said, they are a good looking young team. But, there is a HUGE difference between a team making the playoffs and getting ousted in the first round, and a team that got into the playoffs and made it within one game of the Cup finals. Yes, there have been a number of unexpected Cup finalists lately, but people like yourself make it seem like its a piece of cake to do so. That making the finals proves nothing. Utterly and completely laughable. And with all due respect to the Canes' run, the Ducks were a little more impressive in their run, sweeping two series and taking out the heavily favored Stars in 6 games.

Bottom line: the core of the Preds and the Habs haven't done near what the core of the Ducks have done recently. If you want to talk about who was better this season, than without a doubt the Preds and Habs have the upper hand. However, we're talking about who seems closer to take that step to the NHL elite. Both in what they've done, and by looking analytically at their rosters, the Ducks seem to me to be closer than the other two squads.

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Old
06-04-2004, 03:57 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Yeh look how quick Calgary went through them.

The President cup winning highest payroll team.
Your point? The Wings are old and slow, Calgary beat them handedly, Nashville just whined.

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Old
06-04-2004, 04:19 PM
  #29
Lionel Hutz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Well, I don't know if it's the right way to put it, but Colorado, Detroit, New Jersey, Toronto, Philly, and Dallas have been dethroned as the power-houses of this league, something likely pointed out before.
Ummm, I must've missed the part where it was decided that Toronto was one of the powerhouses of the NHL. Or the Flyers for that matter, but at least they've been to the finals since I was born.

Not sure that one can be a powerhouse without a cup or a trip to the finals since 67.

As for your analysis, its highly speculative, and we don't know what to speculate on given the labour dispute. What I am saying is, the teams that are coming into their own now face a totally different set of financial circumstances if there is not a favorable CBA.

So, Tampa Bay and Ottawa will both have to blow their teams apart for cheaper younger players within a couple of years without a new CBA. They do not have the capacity to keep their entire groups together. Without a owner friendly CBA, they will have no staying power and will have to go back into developing mode after just reaching the top. Sucks don't it?

Montreal, looks good but they A) have the same financial problems and B) have some building left to do. They have a great group, but not all of the pieces are in place.

Anaheim?

With a good CBA, yeah, I expect TB and Ottawa to be good for a long time. Without a good CBA, I expect all of their stars and stars from Tampa and everywhere else to gradually migrate to Detroit, Dallas, NY, Colorado etc.

Other teams you mentioned, you can say they are developing well and have lots of promise, I have a little bit of a problem calling them powerhouses, as someone above said, they've never made the playoffs. They have great orgs, will certainly be better, but powerhouse? we have little idea.

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Old
06-04-2004, 04:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Mercury
the Islanders will either take their game to the next level, or simply accept their place as the Blues of the east.
Nah, the Leafs are the Blues of the East; spend $$$ on free-agents,and make trades at deadline only to fail in post season.

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Old
06-04-2004, 04:57 PM
  #31
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I don't think there's any changing of the guard whatsoever. The usual suspects Detroit, Jersey, Colorado etc are still going to be excellent teams for years to come. They draft well, trade well, attract free agents, have solid management and financial situations.

They win every Cup for 10 years straight, then as soon as they don't win it all we pronounce them dead?

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Old
06-04-2004, 07:12 PM
  #32
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Contenders in 5 years

East
Ottawa
Tampa
Philly
Jersey
Florida
Atlanta

Philly and Jersey will remain as two of the top contenders. Each of them have young goalies in Ahonen (though Brodeur will still be there) and Esche/Nittymakki. They both have very good young d-men; martin/hale and Pitkanen/Seidenberg. They also have good players in their late 20's who will still be with the team and good young forwards such as parise and carter/richards.

Ottawa is the real deal and they'll be my pick again to win it next year assuming they avoid Toronto in the 1st round.

Tampa, I'm not completely sold on. I said all year long that the team who avoided the flyers, devils, sens, and leafs in the 1st 2 rounds was the team that would win the east. They beat the two worst playoff teams, imo, in the islanders and the canadiens. They then beat a depleted and injured flyers team in seven games. If they can't retain Khabibulin then they won't be a contender for a while.

Atlanta and Florida have great young talent. They are both set at the most important position with Lehtonen and Luongo. They both already have game breakers in Ilya/Dany and Jay/Nathan.

As for the west, I don't think it's really clear who will contend in 5 years. I don't see Detroit or Colorado falling off the face of the earth and I also don't see a hard cap. Teams like Columbus and Nashville and San Jose all have good young players though.

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Old
06-04-2004, 07:36 PM
  #33
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I figure Anaheim to be an elite team 3 or 4 years down the road when Chistov, Lupul, Getzlaf, and Perry all mature

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Old
06-04-2004, 07:45 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Well, a lot's going to depend on the developments this offseason...
By no means did I mean to imply that there won't be perennial contending teams coming "back to the pack", nor new teams stepping up.

However, these changes will not happen as rapidly as the original posts suggested. And can we at least see a team make the playoffs - once - before they are even mentioned in the same sentence as teams that have been contenders for the last 10 years, including up to this very spring?!

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Old
06-04-2004, 11:14 PM
  #35
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Flyers take Tampa to Game 7 of the ECF, Devils a year removed from the cup, Detroit 2, Colorado 3 and suddenly these guys are dethroned? I can see maybe Dallas. I never thought Toronto was in it.

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Old
06-04-2004, 11:33 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus
Flyers take Tampa to Game 7 of the ECF, Devils a year removed from the cup, Detroit 2, Colorado 3 and suddenly these guys are dethroned? I can see maybe Dallas. I never thought Toronto was in it.
Detroit potentially will lose half their team, and the ones that stay will get older. The Flyers might not have Recchi, Amonte, and Leclair back, and who knows what Desjardins' future looks like. Toronto just gets older, and will likely lose some key players. The Devils will likely lose Stevens, who proved that they need him for success, and Friesen. Dallas might lose Numminen as well(likely) and Matvichuk, too. It's already been shown over the last two years that they aren't the powerhouses they once were(this group won every cup from 95 to 03) as while NJ got to the finals and won, and the Flyers were in the ECF, other than that, in the last two years, no team has gotten past round two, while teams like Anaheim, Ottawa, Calgary, San Jose, Tampa Bay, and so one were making it to round 3+.

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Old
06-04-2004, 11:37 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
I don't think there's any changing of the guard whatsoever. The usual suspects Detroit, Jersey, Colorado etc are still going to be excellent teams for years to come. They draft well, trade well, attract free agents, have solid management and financial situations.

They win every Cup for 10 years straight, then as soon as they don't win it all we pronounce them dead?
Times are a changing. Like I said in my above post, only two teams in two years have made it past round two. The new CBA is going to prevent many of those teams from buying their way out of rebuilding.

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Old
06-05-2004, 12:29 AM
  #38
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zing!


Last edited by futurcorerock: 06-05-2004 at 12:47 AM.
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Old
06-05-2004, 12:47 AM
  #39
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Everyone's talking about how good Rick Nash is, he's not the only player on the Jacket's roster who's good. FEAR Nik Zherdev. Hes got all the moves to wow the crowds home or away, I've seen him in person numerous times, and hes always done atleast one seat-clinching maneuver. One of the big knocks on him during last year's prospect watching was that he was a puck hog. from what i saw this season, he was hardly such a player. He put up more assists than goals and often would find the open man, rather than find a hole in the goaltender.

If he puts up a better season this coming year (as hope shows that after his arbitration he went on a scoring blitz) , i'd say that he will compliment nasher well in years to come. So i think Columbus is a changing of the guard nominee in a few more years, i want to see them in maybe a 10th place finish in the west this season, then make the big leap after.

------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
I don't think there's any changing of the guard whatsoever. The usual suspects Detroit, Jersey, Colorado etc are still going to be excellent teams for years to come. They draft well, trade well, attract free agents, have solid management and financial situations.

They win every Cup for 10 years straight, then as soon as they don't win it all we pronounce them dead?
Colorado does not draft well by any means. take a look at the mother site, hf.com and you'll be able to see that the Avs are dead last in franchise rankings. Detroit ranked 15 so thats about right on even. Id like to think that hf.com has very accurate ratings.

as for pronouncing them dead, its probably premature to do so. I agree that they wont go away any time soon. The media likes to stir up all kinds of speculation. It sells, what can i say? The Redwings have said they will stick with Dave Lewis. There are some highly-touted free agents for some of these teams, Detroit most notably. However they will do a good job to fill their gaps and produce another high-quality product to put out on the ice. Fedorov went to the ducks and it didnt phase the team all to much, Hatcher's presence was never really felt.

The only team i'd see falling apart is Colorado, simply based on the fact that they have a minimal farm system. It would take a disaster season to cause such a dismantling to where they would hit the dirt and start from scratch (a-la Washington). Otherwise, NJ and Detroit are putting together teams with veterans, journeymen, and prospects all in the same fold. Need i remind you that Scott Gomez got his start this way, and an early contender for the goal scoring race was Pavel Datsyuk. Jiri Fisher is going to be scary in a few years, and Henrik Zetterburg is coming along very well. The only way these teams will die is due to some consistent botched GM work or some new management that runs the franchise into the ground.

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Old
06-05-2004, 07:40 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Times are a changing. Like I said in my above post, only two teams in two years have made it past round two. The new CBA is going to prevent many of those teams from buying their way out of rebuilding.
As I posted in another thread, had the Canucks knocked off Calgary, one of Detroit / Colorado would have been in the Western Final, and *no one* would be calling this year a changing of the guard.

As for the CBA, we'll see. I think fans *vastly* overrate what kinds of changes will happen. I think the owners will get very little, and it's pretty much going to be business as usual once we start again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futurcorerock
Colorado does not draft well by any means. take a look at the mother site, hf.com and you'll be able to see that the Avs are dead last in franchise rankings. Detroit ranked 15 so thats about right on even. Id like to think that hf.com has very accurate ratings.
Their current ranking has *zero* to do with how well they draft. All that says is how much they've kept from what they've drafted. Scan through the recent Colorado draft lists and you'll see *tons* of NHL'ers, and numerous great players. Nedorost, Sauer, Liles, Radivojevic, Hahl, Vrbata, Tanguay, Skoula, Regehr, Parker, Abid, Sauve, Moore from 2000 to 1998 *alone*. That's *13* solid NHL'ers in three years. And there's plenty more picks before that.

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Old
06-05-2004, 08:27 AM
  #41
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Call me crazy, but as long as the Stars have Marty Turco in net, and as long as they play the gritty, physical two-way game, I have the Stars contending for the playoffs and quite possibly even more. They won't be the Cup contenders of 1997/2003, but they won't fold as drasticly as some of you claim.

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Old
06-05-2004, 08:35 AM
  #42
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All the good players who make too much now will still play. While some may stay in Europe the majority will still be in the world's best league. Calgary is a one year wonder. I would not count out periennel favs New Jersey, Colorado and detroit. Dallas's problem is Army has no clue

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Old
06-05-2004, 08:38 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsdude
Dallas's problem is Army has no clue
I've noticed your continues hatred for Armstrong, you seem to be the only one that has not been pleased with his actions since taking over from Gainey. Care to eloborate? Just curious..

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Old
06-05-2004, 08:41 AM
  #44
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So many threads have addressed the upcoming CBA agreement that it hardly merits a new discussion on this thread.

But I will say this, for all of the posters that think the new CBA will drastically change the NHL's landscape will be sorely disappointed. To think that the NHL owners will show a unified approach that will potentially harm so many of the league's financial powerhouse franchises is not based in reality IMO.

It is the all too familiar refrain sounded a couple of years ago when baseball was to institute a new system that would potentially cripple the New York Yankees' financial clout. As it stands under baseball's new system, the Yankees are really hurting with their $163 million payroll.

At the end of the day, teams like the Rangers, Detriot, Colorado and Toronto are too important to the league in terms of the casual fan's interest to hamper those franchises competitiveness.

Even with some form of cost certanity implemented (i.e. salary cap) it won't be system that hampers the ability of the financially well off franchises from acquiring big ticket players. A new CBA agreement will not change the fact that an organization like Colorado will have much larger revenue streams than Edmonton or a Calgary. It is an economic reality. In fact, it is rather humorous to read the posts about the upcoming demise of teams like Colorado unde the new CBA. Colorado's owner is worth approximately $4 billion. He owns the Pepsi center outright, and he also owns the Denver Nuggets. That means that Stan Kroenke controls and receives all revenue streams from gate and concession receipts for the sports. Kroenke has also ended the Avalanche's relationship with Fox Sports Net for television broadcast and will commence a wholly owned sports channel with the Avalanche and Nuggets as the centerpiece sports. In a league in which television broadcast rights have just decreased dramitically with the ESPN2 and NBC deals, such financial power and control cannot be discounted. The same reasoning applies to the Rangers and other well-off NHL franchises.

The big boys (Rangers, Avs, Wings, Toronto, etc.) will continue to make much more money than the smaller market NHL teams. In fact, with the league tv deal bringing in less money, it will make it more difficult for smaller market teams to generate a profit. Controlling costs can only do so much when a teams revenue streams continue to decline.

Many have wondered how the NHLPA can take such a hard line stance on the new CBA and head to a lockout when everyone knows the league's financial situation is dire. The reason is the dirty little secret that no one likes to address: solidarity among the owners. It fell apart in 1994 and there is little reason to suspect it won't fall apart again in the face of a prolonged lockout or pressing on the issue of a hard cap. The financially well-off teams simply have too much of a financial disincentive to welcome a hard cap that may hamper their flexibility in placing a competitive product on the ice.

Those posters that continually cry "new CBA" as a rallying cry for the demise of the big-spending NHL teams are not grounded in any reality or economic sense. Those of us that have had to live and work in the real world understand that at the end of the day capitilism rules, and those with financial clout are able to use it to their advantage.

To think that the league will implement a hard cap that may disadvantage some of its most popular and financially solid teams is simply not a view that is based on any business sense.

That being said, having the ability to spend money will not guarantee success (see New York Rangers), but it does give those particular teams more options.

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Old
06-05-2004, 09:55 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
As I posted in another thread, had the Canucks knocked off Calgary, one of Detroit / Colorado would have been in the Western Final, and *no one* would be calling this year a changing of the guard.

As for the CBA, we'll see. I think fans *vastly* overrate what kinds of changes will happen. I think the owners will get very little, and it's pretty much going to be business as usual once we start again.



Their current ranking has *zero* to do with how well they draft. All that says is how much they've kept from what they've drafted. Scan through the recent Colorado draft lists and you'll see *tons* of NHL'ers, and numerous great players. Nedorost, Sauer, Liles, Radivojevic, Hahl, Vrbata, Tanguay, Skoula, Regehr, Parker, Abid, Sauve, Moore from 2000 to 1998 *alone*. That's *13* solid NHL'ers in three years. And there's plenty more picks before that.
well then i guess you can say the Islanders draft really well then, huh?

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Old
06-05-2004, 11:49 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
The new CBA is going to prevent many of those teams from buying their way out of rebuilding.
I wouldn't bet on that.

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Old
06-05-2004, 11:56 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
The Flyers might not have Recchi, Amonte, and Leclair back, and who knows what Desjardins' future looks like.
Which will be a blessing. Had someone else played in stead of Amonte and LeClair, the Flyers might have been in the Finals, they were that useless.

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Old
06-05-2004, 02:06 PM
  #48
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Big Contenders in 5-6 years?

Detriot, Colorodo, New Jersey

These teams have gotten as far as they have because of good management and scouting. They're not going to just dissapear.

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06-05-2004, 03:35 PM
  #49
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Teams like New Jersey, Colorado, Detroit etc. may not be as dominant as before but they won't fall off the face of the earth. I can still see them going to the Stanley Cup Final next year...whenever that is.

The difference in the NHL is the parity. Any team that makes the playoffs can go far it seems. Or at least put up a good fight. Or even make the Cup final and win.

And teams like I mentioned before have high payrolls but they got to where they are with smart management.
-most of NJ's players are still in their prime, Stevens being the lone exception. And just FYI they were still the best defensive team in the NHL without Stevens. They also have a ton of prospects like Martin, Hale, Parise etc.
-Colorado still has Sakic, Blake, Foote, Hedjuk etc. If they can keep role players like konowalchuk and Barnaby, they will still be dangerous. The farm team looks a little weak right now but the Avs are one of the best drafting teams in the NHL.
-Detroit will be ok. Not as dominant as they once were but still a good team. And they have more good prospects that many people seem to think they have. Hudler, Grigorenko and Kronwall could all make the NHL roster.

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06-05-2004, 04:22 PM
  #50
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With Lemaire as coach for the Wild I think they'll be competive, not elite but very competive like last year. We got a good group of prospects in the minors and coming up, so I'm not exactly worried. Depth is a bit of a problem but that should be fixed with this year's draft and next year's draft.

 
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