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The changing of the guard

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Old
06-05-2004, 04:48 PM
  #51
Traitor8
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I don't know why some people say the Habs are not comparable to the teams mentionned.. I think the Habs are very comparable to the Leafs or Devils.

Leafs are old and banged up. Their goaltender is old and they don't have any prospects. Their are a lot of questiosn to be asked and answered.How much pts did they get more then the habs with 20 M $ more in payroll? Yea that's right....

Devils..vs Habs
Brodeur >Theodore
Elias = Kovalev
Gomez = Ribeiro
Langenbrunner < Koivu
Martin < Komisarek
Niedermayer > Markov
Prospects < Prospects
*I didn't put Stevens because he might retire and he's at the end of his career*
--------------
Now the guy trying to argue that Anaheim are closer to those teams that Montreal is laughable. Just because Anaheim made it that far doesn't mean anything. Btw buddy, that was last year..where are they now?

We have our star players in Koivu,Theodore and Kovalev if he resigns.
We have our young defenseman in Markov,Komisarek and Hainsey
We have our Prospects in Higgins,Plekanec,Perezhogin,Kositstsyn,Hossa who should all make the team in 1-2 yrs.

And I don't understand when people say we are in financial problems are wtv the hell you want to call it..it's BS.

In the 2002-2003 season, habs had a 48 M $ payroll which come to 10th in the league.
The habs have dropped it to about 43 M $ this year while making the playoffs.
Guys like Perreault,Juneau,Dackell,Quintal won't be back next year and that saves about 7 M $ right there while we get younger and better.

Hey buddy..Anaheim is better then Ottawa because they made it far while riding a goaltender.

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06-05-2004, 04:59 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
I don't know why some people say the Habs are not comparable to the teams mentionned.. I think the Habs are very comparable to the Leafs or Devils.

Leafs are old and banged up. Their goaltender is old and they don't have any prospects. Their are a lot of questiosn to be asked and answered.How much pts did they get more then the habs with 20 M $ more in payroll? Yea that's right....

Devils..vs Habs
Brodeur >Theodore
Elias = Kovalev
Gomez = Ribeiro
Langenbrunner < Koivu
Martin < Komisarek
Niedermayer > Markov
Prospects < Prospects
*I didn't put Stevens because he might retire and he's at the end of his career*
Elias > Kovalev... Please. Elias is younger and puts up better numbers, not to mention being decades ahead of Kovalev defensively. We could play Elias as a defenseman and get away with it.
Gomez > Ribiero... just ask anyone. Or look at the numbers. Gomez led the whole league in points through the second half of the season. Ribiero isn't even close.

Langenbrunner < Koivu, yes, no argument...
Martin >= Komisarek. Martin proved last season that he was steady, a quality puck-carrier, and good defensively. Komisarek still has work to do. In the long run, if he lives up to his potential, he will likely be better than Martin. But not yet.


Last edited by Classic Devil: 06-05-2004 at 05:03 PM.
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Old
06-05-2004, 05:02 PM
  #53
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yeah, i'd agree that anaheim isn't going to be a force any time soon. they had their run, and the whole team played really well. but the heart and soul of that team was oates, thomas, and kariya. all gone in the offseason. giguere came back down to earth, and that was that. any team with the right mentality and urgency can make noise in the playoffs, there's underdogs making it to the finals every year. but to be considered a great team, you have to do it consistantly in the regular season year in and year out.

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06-05-2004, 05:03 PM
  #54
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Now to answer the topic..
Teams on the rise:
-Ottawa..Young...need a new goaltender
-Florida..New coach..good management..young players..great goalie
-Atlanta..Kovalachuk+Healtley+Lehtonen
-Tampa..young but will they last here when pay day comes ???
-Montreal..Young..good management..scouting
-San Jose..good core


Teams going down the crapper:
-Toronto..just for 1-2.. yrs..they need defense..will ed come back? and get younger
-Calgary..F-L-U-K-E ..i love them but common guys..can they even afford Iggy?
-New Jersey..Stevens gone.Offense stinks.players will soon want the $$$$
-Colorado..they need a new face with Forsberg gone and Roy Gone

Teams that will remain competitive:
-Boston can they get to the next level..only if their owner pays up...there is 20 M $ going to their top 4 players alone.
-Detroit Money speaks while u can attract UFA..
-Philadelphia will they ever make it to the next level?

Teams that are lost:
-NY Islaners..I dunno what their plan is..
-NY Rangers..same thing
-Edmonton..financial problems and weak drafting = Bad combination
-Pittsburgh..how long will they last?
-Washington..Alex Ovechkin will need to save their ass.
-Chicago..how long do they suck?

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06-05-2004, 05:05 PM
  #55
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New Jersey has a great offense...

And Minnesota is on the rise...

 
Old
06-05-2004, 05:06 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
Now to answer the topic..
Teams on the rise:
-Ottawa..Young...need a new goaltender
-Florida..New coach..good management..young players..great goalie
-Atlanta..Kovalachuk+Healtley+Lehtonen
-Tampa..young but will they last here when pay day comes ???
-Montreal..Young..good management..scouting
-San Jose..good core


Teams going down the crapper:
-Toronto..just for 1-2.. yrs..they need defense..will ed come back? and get younger
-Calgary..F-L-U-K-E ..i love them but common guys..can they even afford Iggy?
-New Jersey..Stevens gone.Offense stinks.players will soon want the $$$$
-Colorado..they need a new face with Forsberg gone and Roy Gone

Teams that will remain competitive:
-Boston can they get to the next level..only if their owner pays up...there is 20 M $ going to their top 4 players alone.
-Detroit Money speaks while u can attract UFA..
-Philadelphia will they ever make it to the next level?

Teams that are lost:
-NY Islaners..I dunno what their plan is..
-NY Rangers..same thing
-Edmonton..financial problems and weak drafting = Bad combination
-Pittsburgh..how long will they last?
-Washington..Alex Ovechkin will need to save their ass.
-Chicago..how long do they suck?
Please. Which players are going to want money? I can think of two: Niedermayer and Gomez. Everyone else is paid well for what they do. Niedermayer and Gomez will get their money.
Plus, we've got a fantastic prospect base, a team whose only really old player is Stevens, the average age on the team is under thirty, and a core of young players who will replace the old ones... just like after 1995. NJ won't go anywhere unless we lose our management. Lamoriello and Conte are who make this team tick, not any player, not even Stevens, not even Brodeur.

And before recycling the whole "NJ's offense is terrible, they can't score" routine, do some research. Gomez and Elias provide a great base to work from, we have scores of offensive prospects, and we put up goal totals in the middle of the pack last year.

Anyone who thinks NJ is going to dissapear is deluding themselves.

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06-05-2004, 05:16 PM
  #57
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Average Age of the NJ Devils: 28.5 years old.
That's with Igor Larionov.

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06-05-2004, 05:16 PM
  #58
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You forgot Parise is coming in

 
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06-05-2004, 05:20 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
You forgot Parise is coming in
People don't realize that NJ has been moving towards a more speed - oriented, offensive game since 2002. Our young prospect base is almost entirely comprised of forwards, especially power forwards with size and speedster/sniper types. Our defense core is already on NJ, with Martin/Hale going to be the anchor for the team for a long time to come. Our first line is already there, with the speedy EGGers and their increadible offensive outburst in the second half of last season. With Parise coming in, and Pihlman and Suglobov, both good offensive talents in the farm and getting closer to joining the big club, I have no doubt in my mind that NJ is close to returning to the offensive form of 2000/2001.

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06-05-2004, 05:38 PM
  #60
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ya good you have two players that have great season..Gomez and Elias...I'm talking about the whole team in general...how many goals a game? Ya sure you have Parise... every single team in the league have at least 1 great prospect to build on..

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06-05-2004, 06:58 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
I don't know why some people say the Habs are not comparable to the teams mentionned.. I think the Habs are very comparable to the Leafs or Devils.

Leafs are old and banged up. Their goaltender is old and they don't have any prospects. Their are a lot of questiosn to be asked and answered.How much pts did they get more then the habs with 20 M $ more in payroll? Yea that's right....

Devils..vs Habs
Brodeur >Theodore
Elias = Kovalev
Gomez = Ribeiro
Langenbrunner < Koivu
Martin < Komisarek
Niedermayer > Markov
Prospects < Prospects
*I didn't put Stevens because he might retire and he's at the end of his career*
--------------
Now the guy trying to argue that Anaheim are closer to those teams that Montreal is laughable. Just because Anaheim made it that far doesn't mean anything. Btw buddy, that was last year..where are they now?

We have our star players in Koivu,Theodore and Kovalev if he resigns.
We have our young defenseman in Markov,Komisarek and Hainsey
We have our Prospects in Higgins,Plekanec,Perezhogin,Kositstsyn,Hossa who should all make the team in 1-2 yrs.

And I don't understand when people say we are in financial problems are wtv the hell you want to call it..it's BS.

In the 2002-2003 season, habs had a 48 M $ payroll which come to 10th in the league.
The habs have dropped it to about 43 M $ this year while making the playoffs.
Guys like Perreault,Juneau,Dackell,Quintal won't be back next year and that saves about 7 M $ right there while we get younger and better.

Hey buddy..Anaheim is better then Ottawa because they made it far while riding a goaltender.
The "where are they now" argument can't be used untill at least next year. New Jersey won a cup in '95, and missed the playoffs. Who says Anaheim can't rebound the same way?

They've got a good core, and could easily rebound. People talk about the heart and soul of the team was lost in Thomas(13 reg. season games with them), Oates(67 reg. season games or something like that), and Captain Cardboard, but I disagree. Carney and Rucchin had a much better impact in the leadership rankings than those three in that run. Giguere was also arguably a better leader than those guys.

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06-05-2004, 07:51 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
ya good you have two players that have great season..Gomez and Elias...I'm talking about the whole team in general...how many goals a game? Ya sure you have Parise... every single team in the league have at least 1 great prospect to build on..
NJ Goals for: 213. Which is more than any of the following: Rangers, Penguins, Bruins, Canadiens, Thrashers, Hurricanes, Panthers, Capitals, Blues, Blue Jackets, Blackhawks, Flames, Wild, Stars, Kings, Mighty Ducks, or Coyotes.

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06-05-2004, 08:17 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
NJ Goals for: 213. Which is more than any of the following: Rangers, Penguins, Bruins, Canadiens, Thrashers, Hurricanes, Panthers, Capitals, Blues, Blue Jackets, Blackhawks, Flames, Wild, Stars, Kings, Mighty Ducks, or Coyotes.
pwned.... :lol

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06-05-2004, 08:53 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ_Devil_Boy
pwned.... :lol
dayum... you got that right

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06-05-2004, 09:09 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
--------------
Now the guy trying to argue that Anaheim are closer to those teams that Montreal is laughable. Just because Anaheim made it that far doesn't mean anything. Btw buddy, that was last year..where are they now?

We have our star players in Koivu,Theodore and Kovalev if he resigns.
We have our young defenseman in Markov,Komisarek and Hainsey
We have our Prospects in Higgins,Plekanec,Perezhogin,Kositstsyn,Hossa who should all make the team in 1-2 yrs.

And I don't understand when people say we are in financial problems are wtv the hell you want to call it..it's BS.

In the 2002-2003 season, habs had a 48 M $ payroll which come to 10th in the league.
The habs have dropped it to about 43 M $ this year while making the playoffs.
Guys like Perreault,Juneau,Dackell,Quintal won't be back next year and that saves about 7 M $ right there while we get younger and better.

Hey buddy..Anaheim is better then Ottawa because they made it far while riding a goaltender.
First, I'm not your buddy. Try being a little less condescending, and responding with a little more meat, and maybe then we'll be buds.

Second, where are the Ducks this year? Same place the Habs are...on the golf course. The Habs just stuck around a bit longer. Where were the Habs last year? Just as I said before, those who suggest that a long Cup finals run means nothing really oughta give their head a shake. If one playoff run which lands a team a game from the Cup means nothing, what does a second round knockout run mean?

As I said before, the Ducks have a solid front end group of forwards, solid defense, solid goaltending, and a nice group of prospects coming up. They need some more grit up front, but otherwise the team is solid. The core of the Cup run wasn't Oates, Thomas, and Kariya...far from it. It was Rucchin, Niedermayer, Carney, Giguere. Guess what, those guys are still there. You suggest nothing tangible in your post to take away from the Ducks. Simply that they ran on a hot goalie. Well all teams that make it to the finals do. Thats the weakest, most pathetic argument going. There is probably a good argument out there that would suggest that the Ducks aren't ready to become a consistent contender in the next couple of years, but you certainly didn't make it.

Anaheim isn't better than Ottawa, but the Habs sure as hell aren't either.

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06-05-2004, 11:24 PM
  #66
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Twelve months removed from hoisting the Stanley Cup, on the heels of a solid '03-'04 regular season, with a majority of their core players (Brodeur, Gomez, Elias, Neidermayer, etc.) in their prime, and a promising group of young talent arriving (the kids on D, Parise), and suddenly the Montreal Canadiens, a non-plyoff team one year ago, and impressive second round loser this spring are their equal?

:lol

***

Not to mention, NYI still possesses Pat Burns (hopefully) and Lou Lamareillo at the helm. You don't build (and maintain) successful teams without great leadership at the top. Devils have it, still.


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06-05-2004, 11:27 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Twelve months removed from hoisting the Stanley Cup, on the heels of a solid '03-'04 regular season, with a majority of their core players (Brodeur, Gomez, Elias, Neidermayer, etc.) in their prime, and a promising group of young talent arriving (the kids on D, Parise), and suddenly the Montreal Canadiens, a non-playoff team one year ago, and impressive second round loser this spring, are their equal?

Not to mention, NYI still possesses Pat Burns (hopefully) and Lou Lamareillo at the helm. You don't build (and maintain) successful teams without great leadership at the top. Devils have it, still.

:lol
Obviously! They have three young d-men and a collection of prospects who "should make the team in 1-2 years". They need to dust of an entire ring of the Cup for this group.


Last edited by Trottier: 06-06-2004 at 12:31 AM.
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06-05-2004, 11:33 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Twelve months removed from hoisting the Stanley Cup, on the heels of a solid '03-'04 regular season, with a majority of their core players (Brodeur, Gomez, Elias, Neidermayer, etc.) in their prime, and a promising group of young talent arriving (the kids on D, Parise), and suddenly the Montreal Canadiens, a non-plyoff team one year ago, and impressive second round loser this spring are their equal?

:lol
Stevens is probably gone. Without him, as we have seen, the Devils are much, much worse, and playoff success isn't as much. If they lose Friesen, they lose a big part of their run.

Brodeur also showed that without Stevens, he doesn't do as well. He had like 9 shutouts when Stevens was there, and one when he was gone. Gomez and Elias will be intact, but count on Scotty Niedermayer gone after he signs a 1 year contract this summer, if he signs one at all(could wait for the CBA to clear up, which could result in him becoming UFA). Paul Martin and David Hale aren't going to make up for them.

The solution for other teams would be replacing them via UFA. Unfortunately, Louie Lams is their GM(never though I'd ever say that), and UFAs aren't his thing.

There's also the question of whether Madden stays(once again, the UFA thing), and the fact that if Madden and Friesen leave, they've got the EGG line and that's about where it ends.

The vs. Montreal argument doesn't work as well, as Montreal lost to the eventual ECF champs, after beating out 2nd place Boston, and overcoming a 3-1 defeceit. They arguably did better than the Devs this season.

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06-05-2004, 11:37 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Obviously! They have three young d-men and a collection of prospects who "should make the team in 1-2 years". They need to dust of an entire ring of the Cup for this group.
The NJ team in 2-3 years... is the current NJ team, minus Stevens, Stevenson, maybe Brylin, and various others. Considering that we were without Stevens this season for most of it and the playoffs... and still got over 100 pts and the Jennings trophy... well...

How quickly we forget... NJ was written off after 1995 as a fluke and 1996 as a confirmation... yet 2000 and 2001... well, two cup appearances, one more cup. Then we lose Holik, Arnott, and Sykora... oh no, we're done again! Wait a second... we'll just take another cup with us on the way out.

Lou Lamoriello is a genius. We've got the core in place. We've got the up and coming prospects in Albany and elsewhere. We've got the system and the style. We've got the scouting and the management. We've got the winning mentality. We've got Martin Brodeur, who's only 30. What else could we possibly need?

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06-05-2004, 11:45 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Stevens is probably gone. Without him, as we have seen, the Devils are much, much worse, and playoff success isn't as much. If they lose Friesen, they lose a big part of their run.

Brodeur also showed that without Stevens, he doesn't do as well. He had like 9 shutouts when Stevens was there, and one when he was gone. Gomez and Elias will be intact, but count on Scotty Niedermayer gone after he signs a 1 year contract this summer, if he signs one at all(could wait for the CBA to clear up, which could result in him becoming UFA). Paul Martin and David Hale aren't going to make up for them.

The solution for other teams would be replacing them via UFA. Unfortunately, Louie Lams is their GM(never though I'd ever say that), and UFAs aren't his thing.

There's also the question of whether Madden stays(once again, the UFA thing), and the fact that if Madden and Friesen leave, they've got the EGG line and that's about where it ends.

The vs. Montreal argument doesn't work as well, as Montreal lost to the eventual ECF champs, after beating out 2nd place Boston, and overcoming a 3-1 defeceit. They arguably did better than the Devs this season.
One thing at a time.

A. Scott Stevens might well be gone. I doubt it, I think he'll play out his contract, but whatever. We still managed to win the Jennings trophy, running with Niedermayer - White, Martin - Hale, Brown - Giroux for a solid two months when Rafalski was out. We won the Jennings with two rookies, two career AHLers, White and Nieds. What does that tell you about our defense?

B. Friesen means nothing to this team. He's a player who was brought in for the cup run. We have a couple in each cup.... Broten and Lemieux... Lemieux and Mogilny... Friesen and Nieuwendyk... etc. Losing him is not the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination.

C. Martin and Hale are GOOD. You don't realize how good until you watch them play. These kids are going to be solid. Martin looks like a young Scott Niedermayer, with less skating and more shot. Hale looks like a young Ken Daneyko. Add that to the probability that Niedermayer won't leave... Lou offered Holik 8M to stay with NJ because he considered Holik a core player. What do you think he'll offer Niedermayer? Nieds isn't going anywhere soon.

D. John Madden: I want to keep him and he wants to stay, so I think he will. But losing him isn't the end of the world. That's the thing with NJ: nobody is completely irreplaceable (except, perhaps, Niedermayer.) Not even Brodeur, though it'd be hard. No one. How do you think we've stayed successful? It's by being modular. We adapt, and we do it quickly. We love Lou for that, because he's found the way to be successful while changing over a team, there's no rebuilding necessary. See 2003... we built it out of the pieces that won in 2000, which was built out of the pieces of 1995.

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06-05-2004, 11:51 PM
  #71
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Judging the status of teams from a single year is exceptionally misleading, look at 2002 with NJ's quick first round exit. Every team is allowed an off year, or even two or three before you should begin to write them off. In today's hockey, making the playoffs is the most important thing, because once you're in, you have a shot. NJ just won a cup, remember. That's not going to just dissapear, and neither is the management and coaching that built the team which won that cup. Having the managerial intelligence to put together an organization good enough to do that kind of stuff is the most important thing in today's NHL. The single most important. There is no one better than Lou Lamoriello.

He recognizes that team chemistry is more important that pure skill and that team desire is more important than ability. Jeff Friesen was motivated as any man could be last season - so he succeeded. So was Jamie Langenbrunner. These were people who WANTED IT. So they got it. There are some players who just don't have it. Lou is able to figure out who has it and who doesn't and put them together in exactly the right amounts to make it pay off. As long as he is GM I'm confident in the ability of my team to continue to succeed, because it's what we've done for as long as I've been a fan.

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06-05-2004, 11:55 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
One thing at a time.

A. Scott Stevens might well be gone. I doubt it, I think he'll play out his contract, but whatever. We still managed to win the Jennings trophy, running with Niedermayer - White, Martin - Hale, Brown - Giroux for a solid two months when Rafalski was out. We won the Jennings with two rookies, two career AHLers, White and Nieds. What does that tell you about our defense?

B. Friesen means nothing to this team. He's a player who was brought in for the cup run. We have a couple in each cup.... Broten and Lemieux... Lemieux and Mogilny... Friesen and Nieuwendyk... etc. Losing him is not the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination.

C. Martin and Hale are GOOD. You don't realize how good until you watch them play. These kids are going to be solid. Martin looks like a young Scott Niedermayer, with less skating and more shot. Hale looks like a young Ken Daneyko. Add that to the probability that Niedermayer won't leave... Lou offered Holik 8M to stay with NJ because he considered Holik a core player. What do you think he'll offer Niedermayer? Nieds isn't going anywhere soon.

D. John Madden: I want to keep him and he wants to stay, so I think he will. But losing him isn't the end of the world. That's the thing with NJ: nobody is completely irreplaceable (except, perhaps, Niedermayer.) Not even Brodeur, though it'd be hard. No one. How do you think we've stayed successful? It's by being modular. We adapt, and we do it quickly. We love Lou for that, because he's found the way to be successful while changing over a team, there's no rebuilding necessary. See 2003... we built it out of the pieces that won in 2000, which was built out of the pieces of 1995.
Niedermayer has no real reason to stay. He's won three cups, and possibly a Norris there. I'd say he'd rather go home to Vancouver and play, or go to Anaheim and play with brother Rob.

Martin and Hale are good, but aren't great yet. They will be two huge pieces of the Devils' defense in the future, but not right now.

Madden might stay, but then again, Holik might've stayed. Other teams will offer him lots of money too, and like I said before, UFAs ain't Louie's thing.

Friesen may mean nothing, but he certainly was supposed to. They traded Sykora for him, and it's been obvious who's been the better of the two.

With players like Parise, Martin, and Hale coming in, while other may leave soon, and possibly no Pat Burns, Louie may decide a rebuild is necessary.

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06-06-2004, 12:04 AM
  #73
kenabnrmal
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Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
The NJ team in 2-3 years... is the current NJ team, minus Stevens, Stevenson, maybe Brylin, and various others. Considering that we were without Stevens this season for most of it and the playoffs... and still got over 100 pts and the Jennings trophy... well...

How quickly we forget... NJ was written off after 1995 as a fluke and 1996 as a confirmation... yet 2000 and 2001... well, two cup appearances, one more cup. Then we lose Holik, Arnott, and Sykora... oh no, we're done again! Wait a second... we'll just take another cup with us on the way out.

Lou Lamoriello is a genius. We've got the core in place. We've got the up and coming prospects in Albany and elsewhere. We've got the system and the style. We've got the scouting and the management. We've got the winning mentality. We've got Martin Brodeur, who's only 30. What else could we possibly need?
Er, I was agreeing with you, and poking fun at the Habs fan. From the present "NHL elite", I see the Devils as being the best equipped to stay that way for a while.

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06-06-2004, 12:20 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Er, I was agreeing with you, and poking fun at the Habs fan. From the present "NHL elite", I see the Devils as being the best equipped to stay that way for a while.
Oh... I'm sorry. I'm far too tired to accept assistance, I assume everyone is an enemy of the cause....

I'm sorry I misinterpreted you.

As for that quacky ducks fan....

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06-06-2004, 12:23 AM
  #75
David Puddy
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Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Friesen may mean nothing, but he certainly was supposed to. They traded Sykora for him, and it's been obvious who's been the better of the two.
Yeah, it's obvious who has been better; I judge it by helping the team win the Stanley Cup. That's how we do it here in New Jersey. Here is the score:

FRIESEN in New Jersey...1
SYKORA in ANAHEIM.........0

I would welcome that trade again.

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