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Rostislav Olesz: Playing With an Edge?

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09-22-2010, 11:16 PM
  #101
Laus723
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Erick's right in that Olesz is a replacable player, not sure on him being a fringe NHLer, though. If he were on say the Wings (like about every other player), he'd likely be producing a bit more. Iow, our entire team has been flawed, and Olesz's production has surely been flawed because of that. Not making excuses, he's certainly struggled, but I do think you need to take that into consideration.

So far as his salary, Martin flawed on that. He wanted him locked in like he did Horton and Weiss, and he gave him way too much. Had he kept progressing at the rate he was, he would have been signed to a great deal, as Weiss is. Unfortunately, he didn't and we're stuck with him for now.

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09-22-2010, 11:18 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
It actually means he was outproduced by players who played small portions of the season. Regardless, he's an NHLer. Look at other years if you want.
Not really.

I guess it's also worth mentioning that the 2 guys just below Olesz (Dvorak, Moore) were way more valuable to this team last year than Olesz was. Dvorak is our best PK'er, hence the reason why he's a better fit for the checking lines, and Moore brought grit and faceoff wins to this team.

That's another thing about Olesz. Not only does he not produce on the scoresheet, but is there another area of the game where you can truly say he specializes in to help the team win games? Enlighten me.

If I go back to past years, it really all depends what year you want me to look at. If I decide to look at the year before last, the "PROD" statistic only gets worse for Olesz.

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09-22-2010, 11:39 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Not really.

I guess it's also worth mentioning that the 2 guys just below Olesz (Dvorak, Moore) were way more valuable to this team last year than Olesz was. Dvorak is our best PK'er, hence the reason why he's a better fit for the checking lines, and Moore brought grit and faceoff wins to this team.

That's another thing about Olesz. Not only does he not produce on the scoresheet, but is there another area of the game where you can truly say he specializes in to help the team win games? Enlighten me.

If I go back to past years, it really all depends what year you want me to look at. If I decide to look at the year before last, the "PROD" statistic only gets worse for Olesz.
Of course you'd only look at the year before last. Why not a year earlier when he was outpaced by eight forwards (two of which only played six or fewer games)? Why not note that Olesz himself missed time due to injury the year before last? Why misconstrue reality so that it looks like you're right?

I gave you the link and noted how many forwards outpaced him last season because an intelligent person would look at who those players were and see he produced about as expected for a third liner. You just want to bash an NHLer because you've dug yourself into the hole of hating him regardless of his contract. I love how players are busts before winning teams would even bring them to the NHL, then in the same breath people wonder why we can't compete like Detroit.

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09-23-2010, 12:04 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
I love how players are busts before winning teams would even bring them to the NHL, then in the same breath people wonder why we can't compete like Detroit.
What does that even mean?
I don't recall teams like Detroit handing out ridiculous contracts, and waiting 6-7 years for the contract to pan out, as we've done with Olesz. That's "why we can't compete like Detroit."

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09-23-2010, 12:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
What does that even mean?
I don't recall teams like Detroit handing out ridiculous contracts, and waiting 6-7 years for the contract to pan out, as we've done with Olesz. That's "why we can't compete like Detroit."
This contradicts just about everything you've posted here.

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09-23-2010, 12:29 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
This contradicts just about everything you've posted here.
How?

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09-23-2010, 12:37 AM
  #107
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You're complaining that they rushed him and gave him a big contract, which is in line with what just about any Panther fan will say. In this thread you're saying he's garbage and barely belongs in the NHL. Slightly unrelated, but you're changing your tune. I've already linked stats that put him as a third-liner (on this team, at least), but you chose to cherry-pick years and only looked at his worst season.

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09-23-2010, 12:55 AM
  #108
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olesz is a good bottom6er. its unfortunate his career is going the way it is, and a big part of that blame goes to martin who gave him this contract. it puts too much pressure on him to produce points that he aint got in him, and then he stalls.

I hope he's even better this season and that he can prove to tallon that he should not be bought out. just keep a fire under his ass the whole season

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09-23-2010, 01:02 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
You're complaining that they rushed him and gave him a big contract, which is in line with what just about any Panther fan will say. In this thread you're saying he's garbage and barely belongs in the NHL. Slightly unrelated, but you're changing your tune. I've already linked stats that put him as a third-liner (on this team, at least), but you chose to cherry-pick years and only looked at his worst season.
Last season, he was outproduced in your stat by 9 forwards, playing for the 3rd worst team in the NHL. The year before he sucked even worse. Those are the 2 most recent years we have. It's not as if he's ever been great to have hopes that he'll be the guy he was 3 years ago. He has a career high 30 points.

I'm complaining that they gave him a big contract, and I'm complaining because I think they should let the replaceable 4th line player go. Both reasons.

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09-23-2010, 01:11 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Last season, he was outproduced in your stat by 9 forwards...
And I'm done. Keep playing dumb.

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09-23-2010, 01:27 AM
  #111
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What exactly is your argument, Roaddogg? That he's a good forward? Deserves more patience? If he didn't make as much we'd all love him? (honestly don't know)

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09-23-2010, 01:33 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
And I'm done. Keep playing dumb.
Even if you take the few forwards who are higher than him because of a small sample, the two guys barely below him were more valuable to the team, anyway. I already explained this previously in the thread.

If you're going to be a checking line player with a career high 30 points, shouldn't that player be a defensive stud/one of the best PK'ers on the team, or at least consistently show grit, toughness, etc. to help the team win games in those areas? Especially considering Olesz' point totals come in inconsistent spurts.

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09-23-2010, 01:53 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
What exactly is your argument, Roaddogg? That he's a good forward? Deserves more patience? If he didn't make as much we'd all love him? (honestly don't know)
That just calling him garbage is unfair. He's hardly a bust but his development has been so poorly handled so at the very least don't pin the blame on him. It's fine to say he's not worth his salary, and that with his cap hit he's wasting a roster spot. Fine, whatever, but to act like he doesn't belong in the league and bash him like it's his own doing is ridiculous. But it's like it would physically hurt some people around here to admit that where he currently is in his career is anything but solely his fault.

Even with how poorly he's been handled, he's an NHLer, and with a better contract he'd have a place on other teams (and this one).

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09-23-2010, 09:49 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
That just calling him garbage is unfair. He's hardly a bust but his development has been so poorly handled so at the very least don't pin the blame on him. It's fine to say he's not worth his salary, and that with his cap hit he's wasting a roster spot. Fine, whatever, but to act like he doesn't belong in the league and bash him like it's his own doing is ridiculous. But it's like it would physically hurt some people around here to admit that where he currently is in his career is anything but solely his fault.

Even with how poorly he's been handled, he's an NHLer, and with a better contract he'd have a place on other teams (and this one).
yes.

erick's dug his heels in and is intent on nothing short of demolition and it's distasteful, especially when you consider the bolded part, which of course is true. everyone's disappointed in the kid and there's no doubt something's gotta give but just get over it already. he's not THE problem with this organization.

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09-23-2010, 12:07 PM
  #115
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Again you absolutely CANNOT separate the hockey player from their pay in the new NHL with a salary cap. All GMs do that now so we also should really.

And I would also disagree with you that paying him $2-2.5 million for what he provides is still overpayment. Look at what Higgins got ($1.6M) and thats what I would feel is acceptable for Olesz's production level. Anything over that and I think you can find someone cheaper to provide the same abilities.

And I would say that it's even more important to evaluate contacts when a team is operating below the salary cap. Teams with internal budgets have to be that much smarter and REALLY can't afford to handicap themselves by having a guy who is probably payed about TRIPLE what his production actually warrants.

I was honestly an Olesz fan, but at 24 & with 300+ NHL games WYSIWYG in my opinion. That being said - he's not "garbage". He's a legit NHL'er in a 3rd/4th line role. I honestly would like to see what he could do a team with a little more talent on the lower lines.


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09-23-2010, 02:13 PM
  #116
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yes.

erick's dug his heels in and is intent on nothing short of demolition and it's distasteful, especially when you consider the bolded part, which of course is true. everyone's disappointed in the kid and there's no doubt something's gotta give but just get over it already. he's not THE problem with this organization.
That was hyperbole on my part.
He's obviously not THE problem on the team because when a team sucks, the problem is more than one player. One player can't be fully blamed for wins/losses, considering it's a team game.

Olesz just so happens to be a big part of the problem. Hopefully that clears things up on that earlier statement I made. I don't see how anyone can disagree really that he's a very big part of this team's problems. For some reason though, I'm sure you'll disagree with that one too.

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09-23-2010, 02:34 PM
  #117
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That was hyperbole on my part.
He's obviously not THE problem on the team because when a team sucks, the problem is more than one player. One player can't be fully blamed for wins/losses, considering it's a team game.

Olesz just so happens to be a big part of the problem. Hopefully that clears things up on that earlier statement I made. I don't see how anyone can disagree really that he's a very big part of this team's problems. For some reason though, I'm sure you'll disagree with that one too.
it wasn't hyperbole, it was idiocy.

and i still completely disagree. i'd say the opposite is in fact true - the team is (or has been at least) a big part of his problems.

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09-23-2010, 02:46 PM
  #118
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Wow are you guys STILL trying to assign blame to the Olesz experiment?? Seriously does it matter WHY he's not the player he should be or how he got that contract? I think we can all just agree that he's not the player we want and paying for and move on.


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09-23-2010, 02:55 PM
  #119
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it wasn't hyperbole, it was idiocy.

and i still completely disagree. i'd say the opposite is in fact true - the team is (or has been at least) a big part of his problems.
The irony in this post is great.

At the end of the day, Olesz is hurting this team a lot more than he's helping it, for a variety of reasons.

If a boss hires you and gives you a very nice salary, and you fail to meet the requirements; your boss should be held accountable for making such a stupid decision, and you should be held accountable for not getting the job done. This is no different.

Accountability...y'know, the word this organization loves to use. Give it a rest, already. The development excuse gets old after a certain amount of years.

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09-23-2010, 02:57 PM
  #120
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Wow are you guys STILL trying to assign blame to the Olesz experiment?? Seriously does it matter WHY he's not the player he should be? I think we can all just agree that he's not the player we want and paying for and move on.
No. It really doesn't. Great post. The most relevant thing said in this thread, and very much to the point.

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09-23-2010, 04:06 PM
  #121
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Wow are you guys STILL trying to assign blame to the Olesz experiment?? Seriously does it matter WHY he's not the player he should be or how he got that contract? I think we can all just agree that he's not the player we want and paying for and move on.
we can all agree on that.

erick insists on going further and continues demonizing the kid. when he ceases, we'll move on.

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09-23-2010, 04:23 PM
  #122
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How this thread has made it to 5 pages amuses me.

It's pretty simple.

Olesz has NHL talent. He's a talented 3rd line player. He has the talent to be an average 2nd line player on a below average team (statistically, a top 6 forward at the bottom range can hover around 40 pts). Olesz clearly has the talent to produce that. His size, puckhandling ability and skating are all at a level that are clearly of NHL standards.

Its imperative fact. Olesz has NHL talent. Olesz is an NHL player.

Olesz is vastly overpaid. This is also an imperative fact. The contract length and amount is absurd. He does not warrant such a contract and probably never will.

Result ; we all hate Olesz.

People need to stop confusing performance at a contract and whether it costitutes them to being an NHL level talent. Olesz is absolutely an NHL talent ; just not a high end one. Anyone who says Olesz is not NHL material is quite frankly a moron.


Olesz will probably find his way back to Europe and the KHL in the short future. His inconsistencies seem to keep manifesting themselves at the wrong time and his awful contract means we just aren't going to keep him for much longer unless he justifies that contract. But if Olesz was on a contract for a Million or so, it would be a good contract for what he brings. Olesz is just one of many players who acquired a contract way above his real value and thus we begin to become blinded to the reality of his talent and conversely to what management, we actually think he has less talent than he actually does.

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09-23-2010, 04:33 PM
  #123
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The irony in this post is great.

At the end of the day, Olesz is hurting this team a lot more than he's helping it, for a variety of reasons.

If a boss hires you and gives you a very nice salary, and you fail to meet the requirements; your boss should be held accountable for making such a stupid decision, and you should be held accountable for not getting the job done. This is no different.

Accountability...y'know, the word this organization loves to use. Give it a rest, already. The development excuse gets old after a certain amount of years.
it's a LOT different. that's an incredibly simplistic explanation. players are assets - they represent a ton of investment from the time they're scouted, to their selection, to their development. and no two players take the same path.

this really cuts to the core of your argument. there's no doubt rusty has failed to live up to fans and the organization's expectations. he's not, however, a temp or someone you've hired from the classifieds. he needs to pick it up in order to come close to justifying his salary but he's still young and that is still a possibility. i grant you that even in this business, you have to cut your losses at a point. i'm guessing if it was a financial advantageous to do so, it would've been done already but it hasn't, so he's here. as long as he's here, let's root for the kid to at least contribute. it's senseless to continue to beat him up and blame him for everything.

fwiw, your analogy fails at every level in the league. guys sign multi-year contracts and then fail to get the job done all the time. the core of most teams are locked into contracts regardless of production and they aren't getting canned every time they fail to meet their goals. it's just not how it works.

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09-23-2010, 09:15 PM
  #124
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it's a LOT different. that's an incredibly simplistic explanation. players are assets - they represent a ton of investment from the time they're scouted, to their selection, to their development. and no two players take the same path.

this really cuts to the core of your argument. there's no doubt rusty has failed to live up to fans and the organization's expectations. he's not, however, a temp or someone you've hired from the classifieds. he needs to pick it up in order to come close to justifying his salary but he's still young and that is still a possibility. i grant you that even in this business, you have to cut your losses at a point. i'm guessing if it was a financial advantageous to do so, it would've been done already but it hasn't, so he's here. as long as he's here, let's root for the kid to at least contribute. it's senseless to continue to beat him up and blame him for everything.

fwiw, your analogy fails at every level in the league. guys sign multi-year contracts and then fail to get the job done all the time. the core of most teams are locked into contracts regardless of production and they aren't getting canned every time they fail to meet their goals. it's just not how it works.
Rodney King is that you? Can't we all just get along?

Tough words are not easy to take, but fact is Erick is way closer to the truth than you are. You can feel sorry for Olesz, but that's another matter altogether. Being sorry for him doesn't make him a better player.

Olesz' lack of production hasn't made him into just another invisible player. As the 5th highest paid player on the team he makes almost 8% of the total team salary. One guy represents 4% of the roster. So he's failing by a factor of two, the most spectacular failure on the team, and that's saying something with McCabe on the payroll at $5M+.

I do agree with you one one thing though, but that's about it. I'm rooting for Olesz to prove everyone wrong this season. In a spectacular fashion.

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09-24-2010, 11:04 AM
  #125
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Rodney King is that you? Can't we all just get along?

Tough words are not easy to take, but fact is Erick is way closer to the truth than you are. You can feel sorry for Olesz, but that's another matter altogether. Being sorry for him doesn't make him a better player.

Olesz' lack of production hasn't made him into just another invisible player. As the 5th highest paid player on the team he makes almost 8% of the total team salary. One guy represents 4% of the roster. So he's failing by a factor of two, the most spectacular failure on the team, and that's saying something with McCabe on the payroll at $5M+.

I do agree with you one one thing though, but that's about it. I'm rooting for Olesz to prove everyone wrong this season. In a spectacular fashion.
With all due respecct, you seriously fail as Eric has by arguing his salary when discussing his talent. Clearly you can characterize him as you wish based on his play, 3rd liner etc. However, you can not creat a nexis between his play and salary when your judging what type of NHL'er he is. You can only discuss whether you would want him on your team in a cap era based on JM's gamble.
You want to yell at JM, have at it. Yelling at Olez becuase of his contract just makes one another uneducated spectator.

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