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NHL pulls Fraser, Watson from Game 6

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Old
06-05-2004, 05:54 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
But then Van wont be able to use his "game management" excuse everytime the refs get something wrong or start ignoring clear penalties.
For god sakes, it's not an excuse. Don't put it in quotation marks.

Game Management is a philosophy of officiating that is in Procedures Manuals given to officials at all levels.

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06-05-2004, 05:59 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
For god sakes, it's not an excuse. Don't put it in quotation marks.

Game Management is a philosophy of officiating that is in Procedures Manuals given to officials at all levels.
A poorly thought out philosophy, I might add.

"Game management" is desperately in need of re-thinking.

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06-05-2004, 06:56 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
For god sakes, it's not an excuse. Don't put it in quotation marks.
When somebody complains here about a totally missed call you always say the refs were using "game management" and their judgement.

That sure sounds like an excuse for any blown call.

If you remove most of the judgement like in high stick calls, people accept them. You need to remove more judgement from the refs hands. If a player lifts his stick off the ice and places his blade on his opponent waist, thats hooking. If a player takes his hand off his stick and wraps it round an opponent, thats holding.

It doesnt matter what the score is, what time of the season it is, where it was on the ice, it should be called and "game management" wont be needed and 90+% of complaining will go away after an adjustment period when the game is actually called by the rules, not some little notebook passed around by the NHL.

Its funny how "game management" is not needed in football, rugby, american football, field hockey, tennis etc and that the level of unhappiness of officiating is nowhere the that of the NHL.

Coincidence?

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06-05-2004, 07:07 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
When somebody complains here about a totally missed call you always say the refs were using "game management" and their judgement.

That sure sounds like an excuse for any blown call.

If you remove most of the judgement like in high stick calls, people accept them. You need to remove more judgement from the refs hands. If a player lifts his stick off the ice and places his blade on his opponent waist, thats hooking. If a player takes his hand off his stick and wraps it round an opponent, thats holding.

It doesnt matter what the score is, what time of the season it is, where it was on the ice, it should be called and "game management" wont be needed and 90+% of complaining will go away after an adjustment period when the game is actually called by the rules, not some little notebook passed around by the NHL.

Its funny how "game management" is not needed in football, rugby, american football, field hockey, tennis etc and that the level of unhappiness of officiating is nowhere the that of the NHL.

Coincidence?
Hockey is different from all those sports. It is the comparison to those sports that makes people dislike NHL officiating.

Honestly, if hockey referees did not use judgment, there would be at least 40-50 minor penalties every game. Do you want to see that?

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06-05-2004, 08:03 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Hockey is different from all those sports. It is the comparison to those sports that makes people dislike NHL officiating.

Honestly, if hockey referees did not use judgment, there would be at least 40-50 minor penalties every game. Do you want to see that?

The problems is the inconstency. When a guys give a penalty in the 3rd he almost get killed... And that because all the other refs don't have the ***** to do their jobs in the important moments.

Fraser is the best referee of the league. he's been in 6-7 controversy over his long carrer and he was right most of the times. As Splatman said, losers complains.

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Old
06-05-2004, 08:05 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Honestly, if hockey referees did not use judgment, there would be at least 40-50 minor penalties every game. Do you want to see that?
yes i would, because like everything else in life, people would get used to the calls. and I dont mean the fans, I mean the players. If they _KNOW_ beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the call will be made. they wont do it. Right now you have teams and players who say to themselves "its the final period of an important game, the referees will put thier whistle away, so you know you can get away with a bit more than usual"

That line is and can ONLY be used in hockey and the NBA. And they are the _ONLY_ two sports where officiating can and does dictate outcomes. And they are the only two sports where the outcry is directed.. The difference? NBA handles it better by fining, suspension, and written appoligies. They admit when they blow a call. Unlike the NHL, who just says and does nothing. And then 2 years later we hear about how a ref was fined for a game he did way back when.

the term "game management" is horrible. And its no coincidence that you do NOT hear TV announcers discuss this term. Its because its a behind the scenes "pretend like it doesnt exist" horrible excuse for an officiating guideline that would turn off MORE viewers than the game already does. To think that we, as fans, have to understand that "Hey, we have to understand that even though our guy was pulled down trying to clear the puck.... it wont be called because the referee doesnt want to call it and disrupt flow"

call it, call by the book. Have a month of horrible games with no flow... And then sit back and enoy the free flowing skill of NHL playoffs... You know like it used to be, times when Ratings were high and people were saying "the NHL is about to break out"

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06-05-2004, 08:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Further characterizing the NHL front office's complete and utter lack of testicular fortitude. What a joke.
Agreed. This decision sends a horrible message.

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06-05-2004, 08:39 PM
  #58
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Careful now X8od, Vans going to think Ive been cloned.

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06-05-2004, 08:47 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Hockey is different from all those sports. It is the comparison to those sports that makes people dislike NHL officiating.
No, its the whole philosiphy of the NHL officiating that makes them dislike it. This is actually being approved by the NHL that makes it worse.

Hockey is very similar to football, 2 teams trying to score goals which are defended by goalies. If one doesnt need the game decided by officials, why does the other. Youre a Holland fan, youll see Euro 2000 called the same all the way through to the final. You will never see a ref not want to give a penalty because he "doesnt want to decided the game"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Honestly, if hockey referees did not use judgment, there would be at least 40-50 minor penalties every game. Do you want to see that?
Yes, once players know they cant hook, hold etc they will get used to it. The NHL has gone for so long ignoring the rule book that it will be painful to get back to it, but once the adjustment is made, the NHL will be a whole lot better off. The result? Fast, flowing, exciting hockey, not skating in sand as it is now.

To do this Bettman and Van Hellemond need to go.

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06-05-2004, 10:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by X8oD
The difference? NBA handles it better by fining, suspension, and written appoligies. They admit when they blow a call. Unlike the NHL, who just says and does nothing.
The NHL does fine its officials, and if they feel necessary, an official will have less games on his schedule the following month if the league feels an official is not doing its job...and if he is on a two-way contract, he will get AHL games instead of NHL games.

The NHL just doesn't make it public, and there is no reason to do so. The officials don't get paid enough to be publically humiliated by their employer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
call it, call by the book.
The book is written to allow for referee's judgment. There may be definitions of rules, but somebody has to decide if what happens on the ice fits that definition. Those people are referees.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Youre a Holland fan, youll see Euro 2000 called the same all the way through to the final. You will never see a ref not want to give a penalty because he "doesnt want to decided the game"
That is an exaggeration. If there is a foul blatant enough, an NHL referee will call it in such a situation.

Football (soccer for fellow North Americans) officiating still requires judgment. There are countless times during a match where players, fans, TV commentators, etc are sure there was a foul, but nothing was called...or vise versa.

Remember WC2002....Totti getting red carded for his second yellow for diving against South Korea? Many people, not just Italy fans, did not agree with that call. The referee might have been right, or Totti just might not have dove. However, the man in charge judged that he did dive, thus gave Totti an early pass to the shower.

Same concept of officiating as hockey.

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Old
06-06-2004, 12:41 AM
  #61
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i think the nhl needs to purge the system of the majority of refs and linesman. bring in a whole new crew, sure their will be growing pains but that wont be to hard to swallow after the lockout/cba war. the reffing that i hate the most is in every single regular season game, then the ante is upped and the games even more important and the fans just dont know what the hell kind of game to expect. this league used to be proud of its traditions, the overtime tonight was like watching dirty dancing. mario was on to something all those years ago when he complained and everyone called him a whiner. the nhl needs to wipe the slate clean.

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06-06-2004, 12:47 AM
  #62
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This just in:

The NHL has pulled the goal lines from game-seven, and substitute lines from NY will be called in, due to fan uproar

::tap tap::

is this thing on?

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Old
06-06-2004, 12:50 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stungun
i think the nhl needs to purge the system of the majority of refs and linesman. bring in a whole new crew, sure their will be growing pains but that wont be to hard to swallow after the lockout/cba war. the reffing that i hate the most is in every single regular season game, then the ante is upped and the games even more important and the fans just dont know what the hell kind of game to expect. this league used to be proud of its traditions, the overtime tonight was like watching dirty dancing. mario was on to something all those years ago when he complained and everyone called him a whiner. the nhl needs to wipe the slate clean.

The NHL cannot wipe out its entire officiating roster. Not only does it not make sense, the CBA between the NHL and NHLOA won't have it. Every official who has their contract terminated has the right to appeal.

And just who would the NHL get? NCAA and CHL officials?

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Old
06-06-2004, 11:33 AM
  #64
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The refs are only doing what they are told to do. Its the people at the top that need to go. Of course this will never happen.

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06-06-2004, 12:22 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
The refs are only doing what they are told to do. Its the people at the top that need to go. Of course this will never happen.
I'm not certain that is the case. The refs in many pro sports take the rules and calling of games into their own hands. They realize they have the league(s) by the short hairs. Just look at how long baseball has (allegedly) been attempting to have the plate umps call the strike zone as it is written.

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06-06-2004, 02:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Flycoon
I'm not certain that is the case. The refs in many pro sports take the rules and calling of games into their own hands. They realize they have the league(s) by the short hairs. Just look at how long baseball has (allegedly) been attempting to have the plate umps call the strike zone as it is written.
For the most part in any hockey league, the league you work for gives you instructions on how to interpret the rules in their book.

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