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Old
09-22-2010, 01:48 PM
  #526
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I don't why anyone would bother, but here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collegedude84 View Post
1. Not using camp to work on special teams: Our special teams were both dead last in the 09/10 season, and if we expect to make the playoffs, both areas need to be upgraded majorly. This should have been one of the first things he nailed home in camp.
1. Camp is not over.

2. Many players will be cut in the next few days and there is no point working on special teams with players who aren't going to play on your squad.


Quote:
2. The powerplay last night: He kept putting Kaberle/Phaneuf out together on the point, major mistake on his part. Teams know that Kaberle is a passer, and Phaneuf is a shooter, so they're going to pressure Kabs to make a bad bass, and Phaneuf to take an early shot. Its too predictable. If Wilson were smart (which he's not), he'd put 2 shooters out on the point on the PP (could have used a phaneuf/gunnarsson combo last night for example)
1. It's a preseason game and the perfect opportunity to experiment with and/or develop chemistry between pairs.

2. Many, many, many coaches, stupid and smart, use a combination of a passer/QB and a shooter. Wilson is not the first. Remember Kaberle feeding McCabe bombs? That worked out just fine. Available examples would fill this page.

3. If you have two shooters, who is going to control puck movement?

Quote:
3. Lebda/Kaberle pairing last night: He put 2 offensive defencmen together who are softer then diaherra in their own end and have little to not concept of how to play defence. This resulted in a lot of turnovers last night. Again if wilson were smart he'd put kaberle out with an defensive defencmen who can cover up his mistakes.
1. It's a preseason game and the perfect time to give Lebda some ice and see what he's got. All through the rest of camp, Kaberle and Komisarek have played together, and it's a good chance that's who he'll start the season with.

Quote:
4. Calling out vets in the preseason, yet he fails to take responsibility for his own actions.
1. I agree, he should've run out on the ice and tackled Foligno after Phaneuf played him like a peewee.

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09-22-2010, 01:50 PM
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
It's obvious you love Kabs and that's cool. However - he's not a part of the vision, nor a part of the future Stanley Cup winning Maple Leafs. No need to argue or overrate him.
Do you seriously believe he'd still be here if he didn't have a NMC?
Do you seriously believe we can't replace him?
Should I even bother trying?
First off, I don't know what "vision" you're talking about, and I'm not even sure you do.

Allow me to pick apart your response:

No need to argue or overrate?

Is that supposed to be your idea of a counter-argument?

How about trying to argue why Kaberle is so overrated. I said he's 6th in the NHL in points among d-men since the lockout. That's a rather elite stat. Consider how he's done it on one of the NHL's worst teams post-lockout.

What exactly has he done to make him overrated? He's an all-star every year. But I guess that means nothing to you, because you're a troll.

Can we replace him?

For his cap-hit? Absolutely no chance. If you think we can, I'd like to see you name some d-men that average 50 pts per season and make as much, or less than Kabs. Give it a shot.

Would he still be here without his NMC?

Yes. He didn't have one all summer. He is still here. I guess you were out of town.

You should go back to your bridge now.

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09-22-2010, 02:01 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Talker29 View Post
First off, I don't know what "vision" you're talking about, and I'm not even sure you do.

Allow me to pick apart your response:

No need to argue or overrate?

Is that supposed to be your idea of a counter-argument?

How about trying to argue why Kaberle is so overrated. I said he's 6th in the NHL in points among d-men since the lockout. That's a rather elite stat. Consider how he's done it on one of the NHL's worst teams post-lockout.

What exactly has he done to make him overrated? He's an all-star every year. But I guess that means nothing to you, because you're a troll.

Can we replace him?

For his cap-hit? Absolutely no chance. If you think we can, I'd like to see you name some d-men that average 50 pts per season and make as much, or less than Kabs. Give it a shot.

Would he still be here without his NMC?

Yes. He didn't have one all summer. He is still here. I guess you were out of town.

You should go back to your bridge now.
Please.... keep drinking the kool-aid. It's virtually useless to discuss this with you because he's "6th in the NHL in points among d-men since the lockout!". Raycroft won 37 games for Toronto - more wins then almost any other Toronto Maple Leaf netminder, a rather elite state. He was a calder winner a few years before that. Would you have him as your number one goalie? Or do you prefer to skew the facts to suit your argument.

Additionally, the vision I was referring too - was the vision Burke discusses, end result stanley cup..how hard is that to understand ... How hard is it to understand that Kaberle won't be on the Leafs when we win it (as per Burke's re-tooling, and tweaking until we get it right) ?

I believe a dman like Gunnarsson could replace Kaberle with ease. Some nights an OHL caliber defensemen would be more useful then Kaberle in his own end... but like so many homers have told me.. Kabs makes nice passes and has great stickwork. The basic requirement for an "ok" offensive defensemen.

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09-22-2010, 02:20 PM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collegedude84 View Post
I know it's only one preseason game, but for the love of god Wilson needs to smarten up BIG time. Lets look at his mistakes so far this preseason

1. Not using camp to work on special teams: Our special teams were both dead last in the 09/10 season, and if we expect to make the playoffs, both areas need to be upgraded majorly. This should have been one of the first things he nailed home in camp.

2. The powerplay last night: He kept putting Kaberle/Phaneuf out together on the point, major mistake on his part. Teams know that Kaberle is a passer, and Phaneuf is a shooter, so they're going to pressure Kabs to make a bad bass, and Phaneuf to take an early shot. Its too predictable. If Wilson were smart (which he's not), he'd put 2 shooters out on the point on the PP (could have used a phaneuf/gunnarsson combo last night for example)

3. Lebda/Kaberle pairing last night: He put 2 offensive defencmen together who are softer then diaherra in their own end and have little to not concept of how to play defence. This resulted in a lot of turnovers last night. Again if wilson were smart he'd put kaberle out with an defensive defencmen who can cover up his mistakes.

4. Calling out vets in the preseason, yet he fails to take responsibility for his own actions.
Why should Wilson bother working on a PP with players that are most likely not even going to be in the line-up this year? He already said that it's something that they're going to work on when they have most of their roster set.

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Old
09-22-2010, 02:21 PM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
Please.... keep drinking the kool-aid. It's virtually useless to discuss this with you because he's "6th in the NHL in points among d-men since the lockout!". Raycroft won 37 games for Toronto - more wins then almost any other Toronto Maple Leaf netminder, a rather elite state. He was a calder winner a few years before that. Would you have him as your number one goalie? Or do you prefer to skew the facts to suit your argument.
So when you don't have a substantive argument about Kaberle, you make one about Raycroft.

And you want to talk about skewing facts when you're comparing long-term success - i.e over 5 seasons - to a couple of blips on the radar in Raycroft's career, including omitting the most important stats from that 06/07 season; a GAA of 2.99 and a S% below .900. In other words, they weren't winning games because Raycroft was standing on his head, or even providing average goaltending. In fact, those stats put him near the bottom of the league amongst starters with enough games to be ranked in NHL stats.

Since the lockout, Kaberle has finished 5th, 9th, 9th, 52nd (he played just 57 games due to injury) and 10th in scoring for defenseman. In other words, he's been one of the most consistent offensive producing defenseman in the game. And the streak began in the early part of this decade. Suggesting an analogy between that kind of consistency and Raycroft's record goes beyond straining credulity; it's asanine.

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09-22-2010, 02:36 PM
  #531
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I think we can all agree that Kaberle is in the top 10 in Offensive defensmen.

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09-22-2010, 02:40 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Why should Wilson bother working on a PP with players that are most likely not even going to be in the line-up this year? He already said that it's something that they're going to work on when they have most of their roster set.
It's called having an on ice practice with the main powerplay guys (Kulemin, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf, Kaberle, Armstrong, Grabo, Versteeg, Beauchimen, Gunnarsson/Schenn). They should have had 2-3 practices with the coach and these players to work specifaclly on special teams.

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09-22-2010, 02:44 PM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collegedude84 View Post
It's called having an on ice practice with the main powerplay guys (Kulemin, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf, Kaberle, Armstrong, Grabo, Versteeg, Beauchimen, Gunnarsson/Schenn).
That's a long title. Do you think it would even fit on the bulletin board?

Quote:
They should have had 2-3 practices with the coach and these players to work specifaclly on special teams.
And when Ron Wilson said, just the other day, that after the bulk of cuts are made, he'll spend several practices working on Special Teams, what do you suppose he meant? You seem to not understand that training camp is not over, yet. You do know that, right?

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09-22-2010, 02:45 PM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collegedude84 View Post
It's called having an on ice practice with the main powerplay guys (Kulemin, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf, Kaberle, Armstrong, Grabo, Versteeg, Beauchimen, Gunnarsson/Schenn). They should have had 2-3 practices with the coach and these players to work specifaclly on special teams.
It's called training camp isn't over for another couple weeks.

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Old
09-22-2010, 02:45 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
It's called training camp isn't over for another couple weeks.
That might fit.

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09-22-2010, 02:51 PM
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage View Post
So when you don't have a substantive argument about Kaberle, you make one about Raycroft.

And you want to talk about skewing facts when you're comparing long-term success - i.e over 5 seasons - to a couple of blips on the radar in Raycroft's career, including omitting the most important stats from that 06/07 season; a GAA of 2.99 and a S% below .900. In other words, they weren't winning games because Raycroft was standing on his head, or even providing average goaltending. In fact, those stats put him near the bottom of the league amongst starters with enough games to be ranked in NHL stats.

Since the lockout, Kaberle has finished 5th, 9th, 9th, 52nd (he played just 57 games due to injury) and 10th in scoring for defenseman. In other words, he's been one of the most consistent offensive producing defenseman in the game. And the streak began in the early part of this decade. Suggesting an analogy between that kind of consistency and Raycroft's record goes beyond straining credulity; it's asanine.
You didn't understand my post. Enjoyed your feedback tho

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09-22-2010, 02:54 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collegedude84 View Post
It's called having an on ice practice with the main powerplay guys (Kulemin, Bozak, Kessel, Phaneuf, Kaberle, Armstrong, Grabo, Versteeg, Beauchimen, Gunnarsson/Schenn). They should have had 2-3 practices with the coach and these players to work specifaclly on special teams.
while the other players be the waterboys?

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Old
09-22-2010, 02:54 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
You didn't understand my post. Enjoyed your feedback tho
I understood it just fine. I understood that you took issue with evidence presented to affirm Kaberle's abilities. I understand that your argument against said evidence being relevant wasn't really evidence at all, but a ill-conceived analogy.

You cried foul that the poster was "skewing" evidence in their favour, but didn't demonstrate exactly how that occurred. No, my good man, on the contrary, I understand exactly what you said.

I'll also note a clear tendency to skirt the issue when presented with direct evidence and argument.

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09-22-2010, 02:56 PM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
You didn't understand my post. Enjoyed your feedback tho
Much more accurately, it seems that you didn't understand his post.

Nice job Courage, for revealing the complete lack of coherence in Richie's thought process.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with little Richard until he goes back (or possibly forward) to grade 9 english and learns how to form a well-supported argument.

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09-22-2010, 02:57 PM
  #540
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Quote:
I understand that your argument against said evidence being relevant wasn't really evidence at all, but a ill-conceived analogy.
Should read:

I understand that your argument against said evidence being relevant wasn't really evidence at all, but an ill-conceived analogy.

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Old
09-22-2010, 02:58 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage View Post
I understood it just fine. I understood that you took issue with evidence presented to affirm Kaberle's abilities. I understand that your argument against said evidence being relevant wasn't really evidence at all, but a ill-conceived analogy.

You cried foul that the poster was "skewing" evidence in their favour, but didn't demonstrate exactly how that occurred. No, my good man, on the contrary, I understand exactly what you said.

I'll also note a clear tendency to skirt the issue when presented with direct evidence and argument.
You need to relax good sir. Again - you still do not understand my original post, why I used Raycroft initially (and not as a reference point might I add), no matter how hard to you try to convay your opinion of my post - it's off. That said, I do enjoy wide range of vocab. It's quite refreshing

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09-22-2010, 03:00 PM
  #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage View Post
So when you don't have a substantive argument about Kaberle, you make one about Raycroft.

And you want to talk about skewing facts when you're comparing long-term success - i.e over 5 seasons - to a couple of blips on the radar in Raycroft's career, including omitting the most important stats from that 06/07 season; a GAA of 2.99 and a S% below .900. In other words, they weren't winning games because Raycroft was standing on his head, or even providing average goaltending. In fact, those stats put him near the bottom of the league amongst starters with enough games to be ranked in NHL stats.

Since the lockout, Kaberle has finished 5th, 9th, 9th, 52nd (he played just 57 games due to injury) and 10th in scoring for defenseman. In other words, he's been one of the most consistent offensive producing defenseman in the game. And the streak began in the early part of this decade. Suggesting an analogy between that kind of consistency and Raycroft's record goes beyond straining credulity; it's asanine.
Richie's point is perhaps overstated, but there is some validity to the opinion that Kaberle's impact on the outcome of a game has diminished while his offensive numbers have continued to be impressive. Stats don't tell the whole story, and Kaberle is by no means useless, but his effectiveness as a weapon has eroded quite a bit over the past couple of years, given what's around him up front and also in the way his game is so damn predictable.

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09-22-2010, 03:01 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Hockey Talker29 View Post
Much more accurately, it seems that you didn't understand his post.

Nice job Courage, for revealing the complete lack of coherence in Richie's thought process.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with little Richard until he goes back (or possibly forward) to grade 9 english and learns how to form a well-supported argument.
No need to bash a poster who doesn't agree with you. You have stated that I should go back to my bridge? and you refer to me as "little richard" ? and how I should go back to grade 9 english and learn how to form a well-supported argument? I'm sure there is something on HF BOARDS that says you can't attack a poster this way.

That said, I (and many other Leaf fans) still think Kaberle should crawl in a hole and never come out of it. If you feel differently, you are entitled too, no doubt. However, he stunk it up last night...again! end of story.

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09-22-2010, 03:06 PM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
You need to relax good sir. Again - you still do not understand my original post, why I used Raycroft initially (and not as a reference point might I add), no matter how hard to you try to convay your opinion of my post - it's off. That said, I do enjoy wide range of vocab. It's quite refreshing
I'm perfectly relaxed. Perhaps you can't recognise the difference between an angry rant and a sound skewering of your argument. I assure you, this is the latter.

To whit: in your own words, you used the Raycroft Analogy to argue that the poster "skew(ed) the facts to suit (their) argument." And yet, nothing about this ridiculous Raycroft analogy; a) demonstrates the poster "skew(ed) facts to suit (their) argument" or b) demonstrates why the evidence the poster used doesn't have bearing on Kaberle's abilities/status as a player.

Enjoy the vocabulary, because it's apparent you don't grasp the substance of your own arguments, let alone mine.

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09-22-2010, 03:12 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage View Post
I'm perfectly relaxed. Perhaps you can't recognise the difference between an angry rant and a sound skewering of your argument. I assure you, this is the latter.

To whit: in your own words, you used the Raycroft Analogy to argue that the poster "skew(ed) the facts to suit (their) argument." And yet, nothing about this ridiculous Raycroft analogy; a) demonstrates the poster "skew(ed) facts to suit (their) argument" or b) demonstrates why the evidence the poster used doesn't have bearing on Kaberle's abilities/status as a player.

Enjoy the vocabulary, because it's apparent you don't grasp the substance of your own arguments, let alone mine.
Now now..the last comment you made sounds like you are a little "touchy" right now..
and like you need to relax just a bit. No need for the back and fourth banter. You've re-iderated your inital point 3 different ways. I just don't see why you feel so compelled to contiously re-iderate your point. It's ok... you think what you think. It's totally cool. I enjoy the vocab.

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09-22-2010, 03:12 PM
  #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
No need to bash a poster who doesn't agree with you. You have stated that I should go back to my bridge? and you refer to me as "little richard" ? and how I should go back to grade 9 english and learn how to form a well-supported argument? I'm sure there is something on HF BOARDS that says you can't attack a poster this way.

That said, I (and many other Leaf fans) still think Kaberle should crawl in a hole and never come out of it. If you feel differently, you are entitled too, no doubt. However, he stunk it up last night...again! end of story.
I have no problem with a disagreement. I have a problem with disagreeing without providing any evidence whatsoever to support an opposing position.

I don't expect you to understand that though, so don't feel obligated to reply.

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09-22-2010, 03:14 PM
  #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Talker29 View Post
I have no problem with a disagreement. I have a problem with disagreeing without providing any evidence whatsoever to support an opposing position.

I don't expect you to understand that though, so don't feel obligated to reply.
Again - "I don't expect you to understand that though" - no need to bash the poster, or be condescending towards me. You think Kaberle is an allstar I get it. I, and many other Leaf fans, do not agree with that thought process. It is what it is

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09-22-2010, 03:18 PM
  #548
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courage has just owned this thread.

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09-22-2010, 03:18 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
You need to relax good sir. Again - you still do not understand my original post, why I used Raycroft initially (and not as a reference point might I add), no matter how hard to you try to convay your opinion of my post - it's off. That said, I do enjoy wide range of vocab. It's quite refreshing
You mean convey right?

I think Courage understood and responded to your post quite well providing excellent examples as to why he believes Kaberle is an elite defenseman and why Raycroft shouldn't even enter the equation. The truth is, you didn't like his answer.

It's a shame really that some fans just can't let preseason be preseason.

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09-22-2010, 03:20 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
Now now..the last comment you made sounds like you are a little "touchy" right now..
and like you need to relax just a bit. No need for the back and fourth banter. You've re-iderated your inital point 3 different ways. I just don't see why you feel so compelled to contiously re-iderate your point. It's ok... you think what you think. It's totally cool. I enjoy the vocab.
So let's get this straight, you accuse others of "drinking koolaid" (ad hominem) and of "skewing facts" -- strong charges -- but when confronted about it, your inner Ghandi conveniently appears.

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