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UPDATED 4/2 - Flames' arena pitch includes new CFL stadium, amateur sports facility

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03-06-2015, 08:31 PM
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Fenway
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UPDATED 4/2 - Flames' arena pitch includes new CFL stadium, amateur sports facility

Finally the Flames are making their move


Flames to debut arena plans soon, won't 'steal money' from city: King

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By monthís end, Calgarians should know where the Calgary Flames want to build their next arena and how they hope to pay for it ó a proposal CEO Ken King has been devising since at least 2007.

Mayor Naheed Nenshiís office has confirmed King will give him a sneak preview within the next two weeks, before he finally unveils to the public the teamís vision for a new downtown complex to replace the Saddledome.

Depending on what sort of government financial assistance Flames owners are seeking, this announcement stands to thrust Calgary into years of public debate, if Edmontonís arena saga is any guide.


Last edited by Fenway: 04-02-2015 at 03:10 PM.
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03-06-2015, 08:40 PM
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Depending on what sort of government financial assistance Flames owners are seeking, this announcement stands to thrust Calgary into years of public debate, if Edmontonís arena saga is any guide.
and how much did either the provincial and federal governments give the oilers?

my guess the flames arena will be built the same way

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03-07-2015, 08:29 AM
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Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
and how much did either the provincial and federal governments give the oilers?

my guess the flames arena will be built the same way
Well, I'm happy as long as $0 tax dollars (Cash, land, upgrades, whatever) are spent on the project. If the city (Or province or federal government) does provide assistance of some sort then the citizens here in Calgary should rightfully expect an ownership share in the Flames organization.

This is a private venture and the risks and rewards need to be assumed and enjoyed by the organization alone.

The owners are billionaires - the poor dears can manage.

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03-07-2015, 09:32 AM
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Buck Aki Berg
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Well, I'm happy as long as $0 tax dollars (Cash, land, upgrades, whatever) are spent on the project. If the city (Or province or federal government) does provide assistance of some sort then the citizens here in Calgary should rightfully expect an ownership share in the Flames organization.
Or they can just be happy that big international acts will be coming to town now. You either want this stuff in your city or you don't.

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03-07-2015, 09:41 AM
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and how much did either the provincial and federal governments give the oilers?

my guess the flames arena will be built the same way
I think the Oilers just received civic money, but I could be wrong.

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03-07-2015, 09:50 AM
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Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
Or they can just be happy that big international acts will be coming to town now. You either want this stuff in your city or you don't.
I have no problem with international acts coming to a new arena - as long as private interests pay for everything.

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03-07-2015, 10:01 AM
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I have no problem with international acts coming to a new arena - as long as private interests pay for everything.
Everybody wants something for nothing, I suppose.

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03-07-2015, 10:35 AM
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About time for a new arena in Calgary.

You really realize how old the saddledome is when you got to pretty much any other city's NHL venue (except rexall)

I'm expecting a really nice arena since this will be the first big sports related infrastructure project in a long while.

Wonder where it will go is it going be near the current location?

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03-07-2015, 11:00 AM
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Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
Everybody wants something for nothing, I suppose.
I don't think it's a question of wanting something for nothing. I simply want private businesses like arenas to be bought and paid for by private interests. It's the billionaire owners of the Flames who should be assuming all the risk for this venture. I'd rather have my taxes go to things like police, fire fighters, libraries, etc.

And if the city does invest money in the project they should be demanding an ownership stake in both the Flames organization and the new arena. They should also be expecting a healthy percentage of the profits from both entities. I think a 10% ownership stake would be a healthy place to begin negotiations from the city's standpoint.

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03-07-2015, 11:06 AM
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Everyone gets all up in arms, but government spending on new sports facilities is not the worst thing that could be done with that money, depending on the level of funding.

Reality is that without both sides in cooperation, we wouldn't have the Flames or the Saddledome or anything. And no one who's a Flames fan can say that having the team is a bad thing. Having one is part of the arts and cultural stimulus of the city as a whole. Heck, we even get tourists from Britain coming here just to catch Flames game. That's outside money that's going towards our city.

Not everything that pours money into a project becomes the owner. They get their money back through other means (such as parking fees). Basically the plan is to put money up front as a loan so that the city and team can get usage out of it right off the bat, rather than sitting on money. You could buy a car after saving for 20 years and only riding the bus, but is that a good use of the time? Of course not, you take the loan so that over those 20 years you can actually use the car you're planning to buy.

The Flames literally use the arena for about 100 days a year. The Hitmen use it another 70-80 dates. And a lot of those dates are just practice times, leaving the evening open for other events. There's about half a year where they don't use the facility, so is it fair to have them cover the entire cost of it?

Reality is that if the city wants to bring in name talents and performances, they need this new arena just as much as the Flames do.


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03-07-2015, 11:19 AM
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seat count expected to stay the same?

Saddledome is the first Building I saw an NHL game in (That I can remember)

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03-07-2015, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I don't think it's a question of wanting something for nothing. I simply want private businesses like arenas to be bought and paid for by private interests. It's the billionaire owners of the Flames who should be assuming all the risk for this venture. I'd rather have my taxes go to things like police, fire fighters, libraries, etc.

And if the city does invest money in the project they should be demanding an ownership stake in both the Flames organization and the new arena. They should also be expecting a healthy percentage of the profits from both entities. I think a 10% ownership stake would be a healthy place to begin negotiations from the city's standpoint.
I didn't realize that the city stopped funding police, fire fighters, libraries, etc.

The city gets its share of revenue back in property tax, sales tax, and income tax. They also leverage the existence of the building to raise the profile of the city, which attracts more tax-paying businesses and people. If the city wants an ownership stake, I think forfeiting all those funds is a healthy place to begin negotiations.

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03-07-2015, 01:16 PM
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I didn't realize that the city stopped funding police, fire fighters, libraries, etc.
Tax dollars that go to arenas cannot be spent on other, more important areas of the budget.

Even with a 10% ownership stake I would have no problem seeing additional taxes on just about everything arena related. Billionaires will be getting rich off this project and there's nothing wrong with getting our fair share especially if it means lower taxes for residents.

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03-07-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Even with a 10% ownership stake I would have no problem seeing additional taxes on just about everything arena related. Billionaires will be getting rich off this project and there's nothing wrong with getting our fair share especially if it means lower taxes for residents.
Your "fair share" is the astronomical property taxes they pay, the income taxes they and the players/performers pay, and having a city that's worth caring about. Funny how you talk about "fair", then turn around and suggest we fleece the owners with higher taxes on "everything arena-related".

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03-09-2015, 09:29 AM
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Semi-related, but would Calgary ever consider a new stadium in the next decade?

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03-09-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by roccerfeller View Post
About time for a new arena in Calgary.

You really realize how old the saddledome is when you got to pretty much any other city's NHL venue (except rexall)

I'm expecting a really nice arena since this will be the first big sports related infrastructure project in a long while.

Wonder where it will go is it going be near the current location?
It probably won't be near the Saddledome.

Rumors I've heard are it'll be in this area:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/51%...s0x0:0x0?hl=en

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03-09-2015, 10:33 AM
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Can't wait, the announcement is long overdue

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03-09-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Tax dollars that go to arenas cannot be spent on other, more important areas of the budget.

Even with a 10% ownership stake I would have no problem seeing additional taxes on just about everything arena related. Billionaires will be getting rich off this project and there's nothing wrong with getting our fair share especially if it means lower taxes for residents.
Interesting... but let's look at the other side of the coin.... where do you think these tax-dollars come from?

Hint: They come from the billionaires who spend money developing these projects. These projects draw people into an area, that in turn increases the taxability of the area, it generates further economic activity, all of which ends up being taxed.

So sure, you could take a hardline stance and discourage economic development in your city by refusing to create incentives for developers to work in your city, or you treat it like an investment. If the City of Calgary can spend $50m today for a perpetual $5m in annual tax-revenue increase, that's a great investment.

As for your suggestion that the City get a share of the Flames organization, no, that's not going to happen. The Flames aren't for sale. They may get a share of the arena, as a substantial portion of the economic benefits associated with a new arena tends to be outside of the Flames organization, while Arenas themselves are oftne poor investments in isolation.

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03-09-2015, 12:10 PM
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It probably won't be near the Saddledome.

Rumors I've heard are it'll be in this area:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/51%...s0x0:0x0?hl=en
It seems a little separated from a C-Train stop. You'd have to cross a highway to reach the stop.

Could really make the arena difficult to get to.

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03-09-2015, 12:51 PM
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It's kind of a shame that the Saddledome is on its way out - it's an iconic building both in the city and the country. My first big trip on my own was a tour of western Canada when I was a teenager, almost 15 years ago. I flew into YYC, and still remember picking out the Saddledome as we broke through the cloud deck on our approach; it was how I knew where I was.

Calgary without the Saddledome is indistinguishable from Denver or Houston or Kansas City.

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03-09-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
Calgary without the Saddledome is indistinguishable from Denver or Houston or Kansas City.
Ya, it is a shame as it truly is iconic to Calgary, Canada really, globally I guess, reminder of the 88 Olympics, the Flames & certainly the city. The design was actually influenced by the War Veterans Memorial Arena in Phoenix (home of the old WHA Roadrunners etc) which in turn was inspired by the older Dorton Arena which went up in 1952 in Raleigh NC.... Distinctive saddle shaped roof etc. The Capital Center in Landover Maryland another.

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03-09-2015, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
It seems a little separated from a C-Train stop. You'd have to cross a highway to reach the stop.

Could really make the arena difficult to get to.
That's an elevated C-train stop, which makes it less separated from that potential location than the Saddledome currently is now.

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03-09-2015, 01:16 PM
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+1 to the Saddledome being an iconic look (Dumb question but is the curved roof shape visible inside?)

Think of iconic buildings in certain cities, without being an artist you could likely draw something rough that looks like it. The Saddledome might be the only feature of the City I could attempt to draw from memory.

It would be cool if they could come up with something unique that nods back to the Saddledome instead of the standard NA template thats been present for a while.

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03-09-2015, 02:22 PM
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Ya, it is a shame as it truly is iconic to Calgary, Canada really, globally I guess, reminder of the 88 Olympics, the Flames & certainly the city. The design was actually influenced by the War Veterans Memorial Arena in Phoenix (home of the old WHA Roadrunners etc) which in turn was inspired by the older Dorton Arena which went up in 1952 in Raleigh NC.... Distinctive saddle shaped roof etc. The Capital Center in Landover Maryland another.
Hm, never thought about it like that. And I don't remember ever going into the upper deck in the 90s when the Roadrunners were there. Next time the state fair comes around I'll have to go up there and see if I can see the far side of the upper deck (I went to Calgary in October, sat in the upper upper deck, and was freaked out.)

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03-09-2015, 02:30 PM
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I went to Calgary in October, sat in the upper upper deck, and was freaked out.
Ya... the Old War Vets. Saddle domed... and of course in Calgary if you get lucky & go at the right time of year... Snorkeling, Scuba Diving, Water Sports.

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