HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

In the never ending saga of concussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-09-2013, 11:52 AM
  #426
Llama19
Registered User
 
Llama19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Outside GZ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,533
vCash: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Related to the NHL issues on concussions, tonight is the PBS Special on the NFL's concussion crisis:

Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gue-of-denial/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
PBS's Frontline aired a 2hr in-depth doc on the NFL settlement & concussions this evening that was quite informative... believe you can now watch it on-line at pbs.org.
For those who missed the broadcast, the above link is for the full online telecast.

Also, there is a live chat today, at 1:00 p.m. ET, using this link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...-1-p-m-et-wed/

Llama19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2013, 01:40 PM
  #427
Choice
Registered User
 
Choice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: nyc
Country: Lithuania
Posts: 3,459
vCash: 500
The PBS show made me think football as we know it will not be played for much longer.

It also made me think about hockey.

Clearly, getting fighting out of the game would be a big step in protecting players' brains. And there are not head-to-head collisions on every play, like football.

But that being said, plenty of non fighters wind up with concussion issues: just look at Crosby, Rick Nash or even Mike Richter. How long will hockey be the same sport we grew up with?

I think if you take big hits out of hockey, it would still be a similar game. There is no way to have anything like football without repeated hits to the head.

Choice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2013, 02:15 PM
  #428
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
For those who missed the broadcast, the above link is for the full online telecast.

Also, there is a live chat today, at 1:00 p.m. ET, using this link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...-1-p-m-et-wed/
Yes thanks Llama. Watched it yesterday.... the NFL's implausible denials & subsequent "donations to continue studying the problem" when there already exists empirical & indisputable evidence, its $750M+ settlement etc, whole shebang. Reminds me very much of the movie Thank You For Smoking & the tobacco industries triangulations in denying the products odious effects. The problem so serious it threatens the destruction of the game (including hockey) as we know it so the leagues are just going to continue paying it forward indefinitely. Sultans of Spin.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2013, 09:21 PM
  #429
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,804
vCash: 500
kuklaskorner 6:10pm via dlvr.it Researchers Call For A Ban On Hockey Fights: from Jeff Z. Klein of the New York Times, Researchers at a Mayo... dlvr.it/46R9Jz




More from Mayo conference

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2013, 10:38 PM
  #430
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,854
vCash: 500
So, what happens if say hypothetically in a World that doesnt even exist the Hockey Savants ban fighting & body contact of any kind, yet players continue to get concussed as a result of contact with the boards & ice when they fall, crash, go bang? Imagine a game with zero tolerance for body contact. Outlawed. Pure Shinny Hockey & Stick Work also absolutely Verboten.... the ice and boards themselves now the Menace.... say in 110 years... how insane is that?... not that crazy... what they should do is roll back the clock. Get rid of the idiocy of mandatory helmets & facemasks for players, teach kids RESPECT. Real simple. You keep your hits low, you keep your stick in control. Abolish the Instigator Rule. Return The Code to the game. Let players Police themselves. Crazy idea for most Im sure but tell ya what? Worked for Generations of us. Micro-management, not a fan. Let players play please.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-11-2013, 10:56 PM
  #431
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,804
vCash: 500


"The Chicago Blackhawks, AHAI and others hosted hockey moms to help teach them how to spot concussion symptoms and how to help player safety stay No. 1."



Nice. Would be great to have this all over the continent.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-20-2013, 03:53 PM
  #432
Joe T Choker
Roll Wide Roll
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Melrose
Country: Italy
Posts: 23,757
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choice View Post
The PBS show made me think football as we know it will not be played for much longer.

It also made me think about hockey.

Clearly, getting fighting out of the game would be a big step in protecting players' brains. And there are not head-to-head collisions on every play, like football.

But that being said, plenty of non fighters wind up with concussion issues: just look at Crosby, Rick Nash or even Mike Richter. How long will hockey be the same sport we grew up with?

I think if you take big hits out of hockey, it would still be a similar game. There is no way to have anything like football without repeated hits to the head.
Talking with some friends of mine (1 from Wisconsin & played HS Football) The NFL is eventually going to have to go no pads & no helmets ... so pretty much rugby and the player's are going to have to relearn how to tackle (heads up instead of leading with the helmet)

Joe T Choker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-20-2013, 05:32 PM
  #433
scotchex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choice View Post
The PBS show made me think football as we know it will not be played for much longer.

It also made me think about hockey.

Clearly, getting fighting out of the game would be a big step in protecting players' brains. And there are not head-to-head collisions on every play, like football.

But that being said, plenty of non fighters wind up with concussion issues: just look at Crosby, Rick Nash or even Mike Richter. How long will hockey be the same sport we grew up with?

I think if you take big hits out of hockey, it would still be a similar game. There is no way to have anything like football without repeated hits to the head.
That's nonsense. The safety bullies can't even get rid of boxing. UFC has exploded in the last decade, just as more people are aware of the risks of head trauma. I guarantee you the NFL will still be going strong 20 years from now.

Sensationalist documentaries always seem to cause [mod]


Last edited by Fugu: 10-22-2013 at 02:11 AM. Reason: politics, ot, generalized flaming
scotchex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2013, 10:04 AM
  #434
Pat Paeplow
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 173
vCash: 500
Does anybody know if the NHL makes players sign a waiver before they are allowed to take the ice without a full face shield? It seems like a full shield waiver would eliminate any legal exposure for the league and owners in regard to concussions.

Pat Paeplow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-22-2013, 01:05 AM
  #435
hockeygoon15
Registered User
 
hockeygoon15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
That's nonsense. The safety bullies can't even get rid of boxing. UFC has exploded in the last decade, just as more people are aware of the risks of head trauma. I guarantee you the NFL will still be going strong 20 years from now.

Sensationalist documentaries always seem to cause [mod]
I would not consider League of Denial to be sensationalist. I don't know if you have watched it, but I would recommend it. It's not a "concussions are bad" fluff piece, and there was no huge monetary incentive behind it's production, unlike the other "documentaries" you mentioned.

The extremely abbreviated Cliffs Notes: NFL comish and other higher-ups were aware of long term implications of head injuries. They never publicly released this information, but rather created a sham investigative body that was more of a PR machine to sway public opinion. Eerily similar to big tobacco. Definitely worth a watch, even if you take it with a gain of salt. I really recommend watching the full Steve Young interview as well. Very sad.


Last edited by Fugu: 10-22-2013 at 02:10 AM. Reason: qep
hockeygoon15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:29 PM
  #436
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 15,046
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Baseline Testing to be made mandatory in NASCAR for 2014

CHRDANHUTCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #437
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 31,492
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Paeplow View Post
Does anybody know if the NHL makes players sign a waiver before they are allowed to take the ice without a full face shield? It seems like a full shield waiver would eliminate any legal exposure for the league and owners in regard to concussions.

I doubt any such thing exists since most equipment mandates have to be approved by the league and players.

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 03:09 PM
  #438
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
Baseline Testing to be made mandatory in NASCAR for 2014
The optimist part of me says "that's great to hear"

The cynic part of me says "Yes, that's good to hear-I just hope they use it totally for the full health of the driver, and the testing/concussion process isn't circumvented like NFL coaching staff have been accused of.

Like the Dale Jr Controversy:

https://www.google.ca/#q=Nascar+conc...e+earnhardt+Jr

Tinalera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2013, 08:12 PM
  #439
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,804
vCash: 500
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...10/?cmpid=rss1

Canadian government announces new funding for research on "concussions with a focus on improving the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of the injuries in children and youth."

Quote:
“I think the NHL has been a leader in the whole treatment of concussions and identifying them,” said Brian Burke, president of hockey operations for the Calgary Flames. “I think we’ve been a leader and the other sports have followed us.”

“It’s a full-contact sport,” he added. “That’s why many of us played the game but that doesn’t mean we can’t better identify and treat concussions.”

The $4.3 million in federal funding will go to 19 separate research projects across the country.
Estimated $20B in health care costs due to injury in Canada a year.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:39 AM
  #440
2525
2525
 
2525's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,673
vCash: 500
The league doesn't give a rats backside about concussions.
That was shown by bettmans refusal to do anything about what the goon Emery did against Holtby.

2525 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:12 AM
  #441
scotchex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
The optimist part of me says "that's great to hear"

The cynic part of me says "Yes, that's good to hear-I just hope they use it totally for the full health of the driver, and the testing/concussion process isn't circumvented like NFL coaching staff have been accused of.

Like the Dale Jr Controversy:

https://www.google.ca/#q=Nascar+conc...e+earnhardt+Jr
The data on racecar driver should be interesting since they now almost all have head and neck restraint devices. This has saved many lives, but it's not clear if this will protect against long term head trauma. The head and neck and restrained from moving, but there's no such thing as a brain restraint device. The brain is still sloshing around in there. And that brain has to go from 200 mph to 0 mph really damn quick.

An interesting data point is that before football players were shown to get CTE, it had only been proven to occur in boxers and ... harness race jockeys. That horse racing where the jockey rides behind the horse in a little cart. All the jostling over a career appears to do significant brain damage.

Also with jockeys, their extreme light weight is probably a factor. My understanding is that with boxers, the lighter weight classes suffer higher rates of brain trauma because they cut so much weight, that they actually reduce the amount of cerebro-spinal fluid that surrounds and cushions the brain from impacts. So even though the force of blows they receive to the head are less, cause they are fighting small guys, the actual damage is greater cause the brain is rattling around with less fluid protecting the brain from hitting the skull.

scotchex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:50 AM
  #442
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2525 View Post
The league doesn't give a rats backside about concussions.
That was shown by bettmans refusal to do anything about what the goon Emery did against Holtby.
"Nothing"? Bettman's bringing the issue to the GM meeting about putting in new rules.

Excluding "attempt to injure" there's really no rule on the books at present that would allow Bettman (or Shanahan) to discipline Emery.

But the sentiment, outside of Philadelphia, is that that kind of incident should not be tolerated.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:08 PM
  #443
2525
2525
 
2525's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
"Nothing"? Bettman's bringing the issue to the GM meeting about putting in new rules.

Excluding "attempt to injure" there's really no rule on the books at present that would allow Bettman (or Shanahan) to discipline Emery.

But the sentiment, outside of Philadelphia, is that that kind of incident should not be tolerated.
Wyshynski's take on it

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...0142--nhl.html

2525 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:16 PM
  #444
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 31,492
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2525 View Post
The league doesn't give a rats backside about concussions.
That was shown by bettmans refusal to do anything about what the goon Emery did against Holtby.

Their concern probably starts and stops with liability, along the lines of the NFL players' suit against the NFL.

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-08-2013, 09:32 PM
  #445
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,804
vCash: 500
Forbes: NFL lawsuit concussion issues will lead to ban of fighting in NHL

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybro...-the-nhl-stop/

Quote:
... Commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA Executive Director Donald Fehr have to either be having the discussion internally, or reached out and discussing this proactively. If Fehr is smart, he’ll bag the notion of arguing the issue, and Bettman will worry less about losing a long-standing element of the game and start thinking of their pocketbooks.

The NHL is not the NFL, which is to say, the NFL might be able to weather a major class-action lawsuit by its players over the matter of concussions, but the NHL likely cannot.
Bottom line question: Will NHL vets put together a class action suit ala NFL?

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-08-2013, 10:46 PM
  #446
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,592
vCash: 500
It looks like now they can diagnose CTE from brain scans - rather than after the fact via autopsy.

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci...rtin-incognito

Quote:
Dorsett: Dallas Cowboys great Tony Dorsett, 59, confirmed to the Dallas Morning News that he has been diagnosed with having signs of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a degenerative condition that scientists have linked to depression and dementia. "It hit me like a ton of bricks," said the Pro Football Hall of Fame running back, confirming an ESPN "Outside the Lines" report that he and two other former NFL players were diagnosed with CTE after three months of brain scans and clinical testing at UCLA. The other players, according to "Outside the Lines," were Hall of Fame offensive lineman Joe DeLamielleure and former All-Pro defensive lineman Leonard Marshall.
DMN piece:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dal...gns-of-cte.ece

Quote:
Dorsett said a UCLA researcher phoned him Monday in Dallas to give him the news. Last year, according to Outside the Lines, UCLA tested five other former players and founds signs of CTE.

That was the first time researchers had found signs of the disease in living former players. The disease is shown by a buildup of tau, an abnormal protein that strangles brain cells.

“Don’t ask me what tau protein is because I don’t know exactly what it all is,” Dorsett said. “All I know is that before, [doctors] could only be able to find tau if you die first and they open up your brains.”

Dorsett, who has battled memory loss and depression for several years, is among more than 4,500 former players who are plaintiffs in a class-action lawsuit against the NFL. Last month, plaintiff attorneys and the NFL announced they had reached a $765 million settlement, though it has not been finalized.

kdb209 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-09-2013, 12:31 AM
  #447
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
It looks like now they can diagnose CTE from brain scans - rather than after the fact via autopsy.
Well thats pretty major. Huge step in diagnoses. If the onset of tau is identified early, game changer, new parameters. Its a start, definitely a breakthrough. Thats very good news... not so much for the older guys but certainlty for the younger still active players & the leagues, underwriters, Neurologists, researchers & clinicians etc.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-09-2013, 09:21 AM
  #448
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2525 View Post
Wysh is advocating that Rule 28.1 be read to allow Bettman unchecked power to suspend/fine (i.e., take away player salary) whenever he feels like it.

Crease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-09-2013, 09:47 AM
  #449
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
The data on racecar driver should be interesting since they now almost all have head and neck restraint devices. This has saved many lives, but it's not clear if this will protect against long term head trauma. The head and neck and restrained from moving, but there's no such thing as a brain restraint device. The brain is still sloshing around in there. And that brain has to go from 200 mph to 0 mph really damn quick.

An interesting data point is that before football players were shown to get CTE, it had only been proven to occur in boxers and ... harness race jockeys. That horse racing where the jockey rides behind the horse in a little cart. All the jostling over a career appears to do significant brain damage.

Also with jockeys, their extreme light weight is probably a factor. My understanding is that with boxers, the lighter weight classes suffer higher rates of brain trauma because they cut so much weight, that they actually reduce the amount of cerebro-spinal fluid that surrounds and cushions the brain from impacts. So even though the force of blows they receive to the head are less, cause they are fighting small guys, the actual damage is greater cause the brain is rattling around with less fluid protecting the brain from hitting the skull.
I agree. The HANS device is an interesting point. It's saved lives, not question. But as we learn more about concussions, the device obviously can't stop the brain movement in sudden stops. And to me that's always been one of the problems with any sort of helmet technology-is it even possible to make a "concussion proof' helmet?

Interesting point about the jockeys, I hadn't know that, but all that bouncing around makes sense. Why not horse riding jockeys though-is it because they're "absorbing" the bouncing with their knees/legs as a shock absorber?

It does seem every time a question gets answer about concussions, two more problems come out-it's an evasive problem.

Tinalera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-09-2013, 09:56 AM
  #450
Tinalera
Registered User
 
Tinalera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Known Universe
Posts: 6,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
It looks like now they can diagnose CTE from brain scans - rather than after the fact via autopsy.

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci...rtin-incognito



DMN piece:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dal...gns-of-cte.ece
With the number of times it seems players seem to just "come back to the game" a short time after a hit to the head, I wonder if this news would change things. Does the NHL implement (after talks with NHLPA) a mandatory CTE scan after every head hit (which would mean that player is done for the game regardless of how they "feel")?

Tinalera is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.