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In the never ending saga of concussions

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Old
08-25-2011, 12:44 PM
  #176
Dado
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I dont understand Meuller's tinted visor - if he genuinely needs that to prevent headaches, isn't he by definition still suffering post-concussion symptoms?

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08-25-2011, 12:56 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=587347&navid=DL|PIT|home



I was curious about specialists on sports related concussions and found this program at the University of Michigan. (I don't know if that's where Crosby was assessed.)

http://neurosport.med.umich.edu/
I might be misunderstanding, because I will admit I know little about training regiments regarding concussions (so feel free to inform me ): Because I know so little, I will say my (admittedly) limited viewpoint, how much legalese is being used with Crosby (and legalese for future incidents). It was said he was "shut down" (whatever that means) by sources then his agent (and this article) says about "adjusting regiment accordingly". Forgive me for being dense, but there's a lot of vagueness here, what does this mean? How much do you "adjust accordingly" before it gets the point of "he's back to square one doing ONLY off ice exercises, but because he's still "exercising" he isn't "shut down", but rather "adjusted".

I guess I'm just concerned for Crosby and for future players that this sort of word play and legalese type wording is going to be used in future concussion situations-it (IMO) is putting the business ahead of the players health, and I don't think that's right.

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08-25-2011, 01:06 PM
  #178
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It means he's still not right, and nobody really knows how not-right that is, or when it will go away.

Here's hoping he gets right, regardless of the timetable!

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08-25-2011, 01:08 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I might be misunderstanding, because I will admit I know little about training regiments regarding concussions (so feel free to inform me ): Because I know so little, I will say my (admittedly) limited viewpoint, how much legalese is being used with Crosby (and legalese for future incidents). It was said he was "shut down" (whatever that means) by sources then his agent (and this article) says about "adjusting regiment accordingly". Forgive me for being dense, but there's a lot of vagueness here, what does this mean? How much do you "adjust accordingly" before it gets the point of "he's back to square one doing ONLY off ice exercises, but because he's still "exercising" he isn't "shut down", but rather "adjusted".

I guess I'm just concerned for Crosby and for future players that this sort of word play and legalese type wording is going to be used in future concussion situations-it (IMO) is putting the business ahead of the players health, and I don't think that's right.

I'm not an expert either, but my layman's knowledge suggests that players are slowly allowed to train in 'exertion' increments. They start with light skating, alone, no contact. Their off-ice training is also carefully monitored. This is only allowed after they have no symptoms doing minimal, every day activities. If standing up makes you dizzy, or you get headaches, you won't be allowed to start exercise and training. Each time more activity is introduced, the player has to remain symptom-free. If symptoms reappear, they ratchet them down again. I believe what they were saying about Crosby is that he was very close to being allowed to skate and train at full throttle for a pro hockey player when he suffered his most recent setback. (We only get the 90% figure as a way to relate how close he was, but the full regimen isn't detailed).

Of course, in addition to reported symptoms by players, a neurologist would do assessments at each stage for motor, sensory and autonomic functions.

That link from the U of Michigan has some good educational content for those interested.

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Old
08-25-2011, 01:23 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It means he's still not right, and nobody really knows how not-right that is, or when it will go away.

Here's hoping he gets right, regardless of the timetable!

There are headaches and then there are migraines. Sensory disturbances (harsh light, too much light) can be triggers for migraines in the susceptible population, among other known triggers which can vary by the individual.




It's hard to know if it's the concussion or if he was a migraineur prior to the concussion. If light levels are the only thing that cause problems, and this can be mitigated with a visor (and sunglasses when he's outside), his doctors may have cleared him. However, like you, I would wonder if this is a good idea depending on his history and might seek a second or third opinion. There is something neurogenic going on.

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08-25-2011, 01:39 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
However, like you, I would wonder if this is a good idea depending on his history and might seek a second or third opinion. There is something neurogenic going on.
Yeah, I'm not making a definitive go/no-go proclamation, just wondering aloud. I mean, if I couldn't go into bright lights without inducing a headache, migraine or otherwise, I'd be pretty damn freaked out, to be honest.

It can't help "rational discourse" that the guy is in a contract year, too...yikes.

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08-25-2011, 01:39 PM
  #182
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http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41590-.html

THN's Proteau takes league to task - stop studying and taking small steps (like the quiet room). The MMA puts fighters on the shelf for 90 days after a concussion, not so the NHL. The list of retirees due to concussions is growing, not to mention a list of key players waiting to be healthy and get back on the ice.

He asks is it time to ban head shots already.

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08-25-2011, 01:54 PM
  #183
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Must be the story du jour

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp11167

Puck Daddy's Bourne - concussions being taken seriously (at last).

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08-25-2011, 05:22 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I'm not an expert either, but my layman's knowledge suggests that players are slowly allowed to train in 'exertion' increments. They start with light skating, alone, no contact. Their off-ice training is also carefully monitored. This is only allowed after they have no symptoms doing minimal, every day activities. If standing up makes you dizzy, or you get headaches, you won't be allowed to start exercise and training. Each time more activity is introduced, the player has to remain symptom-free. If symptoms reappear, they ratchet them down again. I believe what they were saying about Crosby is that he was very close to being allowed to skate and train at full throttle for a pro hockey player when he suffered his most recent setback. (We only get the 90% figure as a way to relate how close he was, but the full regimen isn't detailed).

Of course, in addition to reported symptoms by players, a neurologist would do assessments at each stage for motor, sensory and autonomic functions.

That link from the U of Michigan has some good educational content for those interested.
Thanks for the heads up on that It was kind of what I figured, but gave me alot more info.

Granted part of my beef with this is the nature of 24/7 media now IMO: if Crosby gets this concussion "Pre-internet/round the clock news coverage" and we are relying on newspapers, we would probably wouldn't be hearing much about this until the season started-but in the era of twitter, all it takes is "someone" with "sources" to make a claim and next thing you know everyone is on top of it.

I do hope he does get back and resume playing-he seems love the game for the game itself and is a great ambassador to the sport. It would really just be horrible if he had his career cut short because of this.

.

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Old
08-26-2011, 12:42 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp11167

Puck Daddy's Bourne - concussions being taken seriously (at last).
But they're not! A rule change doesn't address the principal cause of the concussion problem -- the ridiculous equipment today. It's absolutely idiotic for the league to be changing rules before getting rid of the hard plastic shelled shoulder and elbow pads. Go back to actual padding and you'll see fewer guys launching themselves like missiles, as then they won't feel invulnerable. Of course, both this and the return of real padding will lead to far fewer concussions on the other end.

I don't understand how the NHL works at all. The morons in NY have been just letting massive equipment changes enter the game for the past 20 years without ever considering what they would do to it. I still can't get over the "pads" today, how much they've been changed, and for no real reason. They made them more impact resistant to protect shoulders and never considered what these things would do to heads.

Look at goalie equipment. That stuff ballooned overnight, almost killed offense, and the league pretty much ignored that and made radical changes to the rules, even going so far as to seriously consider enlarging the nets. Sticks are another one. It's just bizarre that the league let aluminum and then composite sticks replace wood with pretty much no questions asked. It'd be like if MLB just let hitters start using aluminum bats back when they were first invented, without ever thinking about what they would do to the game.

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08-26-2011, 12:53 AM
  #186
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So again... If there's no equipment design that can resolve the problem, then what?
The biggest thing the NHL can do is to stop looking at equipment as a solution to this problem and start looking at it as the cause. Protecting players got the league into this concussion mess in the first place. The league badly needs to go back to the old shoulder and elbow pads. Ban the plastic and bring back soft padding. Accept a few more shoulder separations as the price of reducing head injuries.

Rule changes to prohibit intentional hits to the head are fine, but penalizing even incidental head hits in a game this fast will do nothing but add a good seven or eight penalties to every game. The NHL can't go zero tolerance like the NFL. This game is far, far quicker. All more penalties will do is slow down games and add even more PP/PK time to a game already drowning in this crap, which kills flow.

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08-26-2011, 10:41 AM
  #187
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New concussion tracking device

An interesting read about a new product that tracks and monitors hits and will alert coaching staff if a player has possibly recieved a concussion. The Saskatoon Blades of the WHL have 3 players using them during preseason. Wonder if it will catch on and protect the players.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/B...697/story.html

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08-26-2011, 05:02 PM
  #188
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Interesting, but still going about this exactly the opposite way. It's like addressing an epidemic of drive-by shootings by giving drivers bulletproof glass.

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08-29-2011, 01:38 PM
  #189
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http://www.redding.com/news/2011/aug...l/?partner=RSS

Concussion concerns at the high school level. (From the Redding, California Record Searchlight newspaper.)

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If national trends arrive in the north state when it comes to prep sports, expect a lot more emphasis on concussions.

It's the hottest topic in prep sports today. Sure, competitive balance and transfer rules are still important, but with concussions it's all about safety and long-term brain damage — certainly a higher priority.

Once again this season, Northern Section schools (and the rest of the state) will be adhering to Bylaw 313, which requires athletes suspected of suffering concussions to sit out for the remainder of the day and prevents them from returning to activity until they are evaluated by a licensed health care provider and receive written clearance to play again. This May 2010 statement is an important first step in reducing problems associated with concussions.
...
Just last week, Arizona made history by becoming the first state to require athletes to take a course and pass an exam related to concussion education. It's a revolutionary approach to the issue. Normally coaches, parents and administrators do the learning. Arizona has passed it on to the kids, and other states are sure to follow.

New Hampshire made some changes recently that have streamlined the education process for coaches and administrators. Instead of a patchwork education program that varies from school to school, the state legislature has formalized the process.

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08-29-2011, 04:51 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.redding.com/news/2011/aug...l/?partner=RSS

Concussion concerns at the high school level. (From the Redding, California Record Searchlight newspaper.)
The fact that it's gone to the high school level (for all sports) I think says something, if there's an increase in the "concussion education", that only be good for all involved-the more education the better.

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08-29-2011, 05:13 PM
  #191
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The fact that it's gone to the high school level (for all sports) I think says something, if there's an increase in the "concussion education", that only be good for all involved-the more education the better.
Editorial in today's San Jose Murky News:

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_18767747

Quote:
The high school football season kicks off Friday for more than 100,000 California boys. Before the season ends, an estimated 3,200 of them will suffer head trauma.

NFL players have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and other memory-related diseases at 19 times the national rate for men aged 30 through 49. But California has made little or no progress in the past year in determining the risks and preventing injuries for junior high, high school and college players.

It's appalling that parents still don't have enough medical information to understand the danger of their children absorbing dozens of blows to the head every season. They should be equally concerned that so few football coaches are trained to recognize the symptoms of concussions. Californians will have to consider curtailing their sons' participation until safety standards are upgraded.

Hayward Assemblywoman Mary Hayashi has spent the past four years trying and largely failing to pass legislation improving youth football safety standards. A watered-down version of her latest effort, AB 25, passed the Senate appropriations committee Thursday and will probably go to Gov. Jerry Brown's office for his signature after passing the full Senate.

...

This isn't just a matter of kids' safety, though that is the top priority. Given the lawsuit brought last week against the NFL, junior high and high school principals, athletic directors and coaches are soon going to have to start worrying about their liability, especially at schools that use outdated, hand-me-down helmets.

...

Helmet makers are required to meet standards to prevent skull fractures, which plagued football in the 1960s. But contrary to popular belief, no national safety standards exist, nor are helmets tested against the forces that cause concussion.

Many parents foolishly believe that children's risk of head injuries is less than that of faster and stronger NFL and college players. But a 2007 study by the American Journal of Sports Medicine that found high school players are three times as likely as those in college to suffer catastrophic head injuries, including brain bleeding and swelling. The reason? High school students' heads and necks aren't fully developed.

Football is easily the most popular high school sport in California, both in participation and fan interest. The state has an obligation to make sure schools and coaches are doing all they can to minimize the risk for players.

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08-29-2011, 07:04 PM
  #192
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Editorial in today's San Jose Murky News:

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_18767747
Thanks for sharing-certainly food for thought

How prevalent is the "hand-me-down" issue as far as helmets? I admit I know very little about high school football-and of course it's always talked about how schools can struggle for money-how often do High Schools invest in new helmets, does anyone have experience or knowledge in this area?

I realize the article is about football, but High Schools with hockey as well, is there a same issue? Or are kids expected to buy their own helmets (really I don't know-its something I have little knowledge of)?

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08-29-2011, 09:03 PM
  #193
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How prevalent is the "hand-me-down" issue as far as helmets?
60Minutes had a piece on HSFootball in the states. Injuries. Concussions. The economics. Really quite fascinating. You can probably find it archived on their site..... To answer your question though, that was one of the issues brought up, ill fitting
"hand-me-down-equipment"... the chances they take for NCAA scholarships, the NFL. Similar to old school Jr. hockey.

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08-30-2011, 12:08 AM
  #194
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http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=374753

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Another group of [18] former NFL players is suing the league and helmet makers over head injuries suffered during their careers.
...
The suit claims the NFL, Riddell Sports Group and its parent company, Easton-Bell Sports, knew the long-term effects of brain injury from trauma suffered by the players and purposefully hid it from them.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said Monday the league will "strongly contest" the claims.

More than 75 current and former NFL players filed a similar suit Los Angeles in July and another group did so earlier this month in Philadelphia.

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08-30-2011, 12:41 AM
  #195
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Riddell is the leading mfg of the suspended helmet, in fact, its their claim to fame, invented in 1939. Owned by Fenway&Co., a private equity firm, who also own Harry Winstons' Jewellers amongst other American retail/wholesale & mfg institutions and icons.... Is it just me, but damn straight, I find it absolutely ludicrous that they should be held responsible or accountable for the deaths & brain damage of players be they NFL, NCAA or HS when for decades those very leagues claimed the game was safe for its competitors, the equipment (helmets) above industry & safety council standards, State X State. Riddell is also the leading supplier of Batters, 1st Basemans & Umpire helmets to MLB, followed in tract by the top amateurs throughout the US. What happens next time a pitcher gets aggrieved and with a 1000 yard red eyed stare beans the batter on the temple?.

You ride the Bull you take the risk. WTF happened to "personal responsibility?"...

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08-30-2011, 01:35 AM
  #196
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Helmets were never designed to prevent concussion, and no matter how good the design gets, they will never prevent them from occurring.

When it comes to concussion-free football, it ain't gonna happen. As long as it is a sport where a.) players are knocked to the ground and have a chance of their head whipping off the playing surface and b.) players have repeated head-to-anything collisions, particularly linemen, you will have concussions when those hits become to violent. No amount of padding around the skull will change that.

Now, properly fitting helmets are important tools in decreasing risk by an important margin (not to mention preventing the catastrophic skull fractures they are really there to guard against), and all sports coaches at this point should be trained in recognizing concussion symptoms and knowing they should pull players. And players and parents should be aware of the inherent risks of the sports they choose (just as they should be aware of the inherent risks of, say, giving an immature 16 year old a driver's license).

But there's a silly myth out there that the helmets just aren't good enough. Helmets can't be good enough to prevent the brain from bouncing off the inside of the skull when the skull comes to a sudden stop.

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08-30-2011, 01:53 AM
  #197
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Just as they should be aware of the inherent risks of, say, giving an immature 16 year old a driver's license...
..along with a bottle of Whiskey, a bag of dope and some rolling papers?.

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08-30-2011, 10:46 AM
  #198
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..along with a bottle of Whiskey, a bag of dope and some rolling papers?.
If you give the kid enough whiskey and dope, he won't even be able to find the car, much less drive it.
There's something to be said for backwoods summertime Ewok parties.

(Or *cough* so I've been told)

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08-30-2011, 10:55 AM
  #199
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"... the chances they take for NCAA scholarships, the NFL. Similar to old school Jr. hockey.
You can't stop kids, especially male kids, from taking those chances. You know how young men work - if the alternative is a lifetime of working as a Walmart greeter, there is no such thing as "too much risk". It's not just hockey - Euro cyclists were turning their blood to sludge trying to emulate Lance's EPO magic in a shot at the rolling brass ring - it happens everywhere, in so many sports.

But if you take the danger out of the game, we're not going to pony up the big bucks. Let's be honest - it's we, the fans, that are the root cause of these concussions. We like big hits, we like fights on the ice, and while we "wish" there were fewer concussions, none of us want to change the fundamental nature of the game itself to prevent them. There are pretty basic reasons why boxing morphed into UFC...

I'm with Don Cherry - go back to the soft padding - but in reality that's about as much as can be done. Ain't no helmet in the world going to protect you from a Bob Probert knuckle hammer to the left temple.

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08-30-2011, 11:26 PM
  #200
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Ain't no helmet in the world going to protect you from a Bob Probert knuckle hammer to the left temple.
One amendmant I'd like to see to NHL suspensions. An illegal hit or slash or whatever, that injures a player, results in...
  • standard supension of however many games
  • PLUS one additional game for each game that the injured player is out due to injury (probably need neutral NHL-appointed doctors to verify). And if the injured player's career is over due to illegal hit/slash/whatever, the offending player's career is over too
  • also, the injured player's cap hit is transfered to offender's team while the injured player is out of action
Note that this is for ILLEGAL hits/slashes. If no penalty/suspension is handed out, the above would not come into play.

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