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Old
09-25-2010, 12:56 PM
  #51
8BostonRocker24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
You want a real laugh?

There's these fans of this team on the west coast who laugh at a comparison between the #3 and #5 picks from the same draft who have had near identical first 2 years in the league, and then with a straight face try to convince themsleves that their #10 pick who can't crack the NHL is better than that #5 pick.

How funny is that!?!?

hilarious, eh?
You're the same guy that told me the #62 pick in the 2010 draft was better then the #31 pick.

Can't the same hold true here?

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Old
09-25-2010, 12:59 PM
  #52
zeke
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Yup. And I'm enjoying watching you do it.
What are you dreaming that I've backpedalled from?

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:00 PM
  #53
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I'd be all over this if the Canucks were in desperate need of a good young dman, however we are too stacked on defense to do this, and would rather keep our young offensive forwards.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:01 PM
  #54
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Why the **** is Luke Schenn being compared to Zach Bogosian???

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:02 PM
  #55
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no thanks from this Canuck fan. Gillis and Burke would never agree on somthing like this anyways.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:02 PM
  #56
Szechwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karzanPalani View Post
Why the **** is Luke Schenn being compared to Zach Bogosian???

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:03 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karzanPalani View Post
Why the **** is Luke Schenn being compared to Zach Bogosian???
So that we can all have a deep belly chuckle at the Leafs!

ha ha ha!

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:04 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Gotta love Canuck fans.

Hodgson is older than Schenn, was a later pick, and can't crack the NHL.

And now their 22nd overall pick from last year is magically as good as the 7th overall pick.
1st. draft position doesn't conclude that a player will automatically be better than another. See datsyuk, holmstrom, lundqvist, bondra etc etc

2nd. Cracking the Canucks lineup is a lot harder and I mean a lot harder than the Leafs. I think by looking at the leafs lineup the last 3 or so years you would have been able to figure this out.
Therefore desperate leaf fan logic = stupid

Also proposed deal is madness. MADNESS.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:05 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
What are you dreaming that I've backpedalled from?
Oh I don't know, maybe the fact that you've gone from

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Yes, Schenn is progressing at an identical rate as Bogo is.

Or, more accurately, both had very impressive rookie seasons, and then both took a step back in their sophomore seasons.

Both very similar rated prospects, and both very similar first couple of years in the league.
to

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
I'm guessing I've seen much more of both Schenn and Bogosian than you have.

And I know their coaches have seen much more of them than you have, and have used them similarly and with similar results.
Stating that their coaches have used them similarly with similar results is certainly a step down from stating they are "progressing at identical rates" and that they are "similarly rated prospects".

And then of course you stopped comparing them at all, and started focusing only on Bogosian's flaws.

What's next - Bozak is comparable to Stamkos?

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:08 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
and who's better defensively. and who's got better hockey sense. and who's a better physical presence.
Luke Scheen looked promising his rookie year, he made rookie mistakes but he showed signs of being a good defensive prospect. Last year, he looked lost all over the ice. I have been told it's because he switched sides of the ice, either way he regressed.

I will also take the more offensive gifted prospect. Defensive defensemen are a lot easier (and cheaper to sign) to find then offensive defensemen in the mold of Bogosian.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:15 PM
  #61
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So assuming Hodgson and Kadri have similar value... Schroeder, Bieksa and a 1st for Schenn? Thats awful.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:17 PM
  #62
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trades too risky. Leafs are getting the better end of the deal right now but that can drastically change in a few years. i say no because of the risk factor but value is there

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:18 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlamBlam View Post
So assuming Hodgson and Kadri have similar value... Schroeder, Bieksa and a 1st for Schenn? Thats awful.
As a leaf fan, I do this deal, mainly because Hodgson >>> kadri even though that schenn is better than everything else in the deal.

Leafs would probably have to add a 2nd

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by leafs4stanley View Post
As a leaf fan, I do this deal, mainly because Hodgson >>> kadri even though that schenn is better than everything else in the deal.

Leafs would probably have to add a 2nd
I don't believe that for a second. I'm far from a Leafs fan... I think both are over hyped prospects from their respective fanbases but (IMO) Kadri is more likely to reach is potential.

I can also be completely wrong and Kadri's biggest skill (stick-handling) might not translate to the NHL. I'm far from an expert but in my book these two are pretty close to equal.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:28 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Stating that their coaches have used them similarly with similar results is certainly a step down from stating they are "progressing at identical rates" and that they are "similarly rated prospects".

What now?

How is stating that "their coaches have used them similarly with similar results" in any way a step down from saying "they were similar rated prospects who have been simlarly effective since being drafted"?

What?

Quote:
And then of course you stopped comparing them at all, and started focusing only on Bogosian's flaws.
I responded to a post praising Zach only for his assets, by pointing out that he also has had some serious flaws.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by leafs4stanley View Post
As a leaf fan, I do this deal, mainly because Hodgson >>> kadri even though that schenn is better than everything else in the deal.

Leafs would probably have to add a 2nd
As a Vancouver fan I wouldn't do that deal. Why give up valuable assets (basically 2 first round picks) and a serviceable (but overpaid) defensman for Schenn (an excellent 2nd pairing shutdown defenseman) when Gillis can move Bieksa at the trade deadline with lesser assets or let him walk and try to nab a UFA replacement in 2011? There really isn't a deal to be made here imo.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
Luke Scheen looked promising his rookie year, he made rookie mistakes but he showed signs of being a good defensive prospect. Last year, he looked lost all over the ice. I have been told it's because he switched sides of the ice, either way he regressed.
And Bogosian similarly regressed - but on both sides of the puck, offensively AND defensively.

Quote:
I will also take the more offensive gifted prospect. Defensive defensemen are a lot easier (and cheaper to sign) to find then offensive defensemen in the mold of Bogosian.
Then how come you were so convinced that Stuart was better than White?

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:29 PM
  #68
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No thank you.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:33 PM
  #69
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Then how come you were so convinced that Stuart was better than White?
I was wrong. I can honestly say that.

Up until last year I did not watch enough Leaf games. Once I started watching them I feel in love with White (like most Leaf fans). He's a little under-sized for my liking and doesn't do anything great, but he does everything good. He's good in his own zone, doesn't make mistakes and has a pretty good 1st pass.

Love to have him in Boston once I got to watch him a little more. But not as the main piece in a Kessel trade

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:42 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
I was wrong. I can honestly say that.

Up until last year I did not watch enough Leaf games. Once I started watching them I feel in love with White (like most Leaf fans). He's a little under-sized for my liking and doesn't do anything great, but he does everything good. He's good in his own zone, doesn't make mistakes and has a pretty good 1st pass.

Love to have him in Boston once I got to watch him a little more. But not as the main piece in a Kessel trade
White was just criminally underrated, it's sad really. There were even 1000's of posts on these boards mentioning "white is only a top 4 d-men in toronto and not anywhere else" "overhyped" etc etc. The guy plays his heart out on ice.

As for the trade proposal, i'd say no. It's just a very pointless trade idea.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:45 PM
  #71
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I'd jump on this deal as a Canucks fan. Kadri has nearly the same amount of potential as Hodgson minus the injuries. He went in the top 10 for a reason. Schenn is a cheaper and better defenceman than Bieksa and he hasn't even come close to his peak yet. The 1st is likely going to be in the 25-30 range of a weak draft. I'd be willing to give up Schroeder to even the deal out.

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:46 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
And Bogosian similarly regressed - but on both sides of the puck, offensively AND defensively.



Then how come you were so convinced that Stuart was better than White?
You're overlooking one HUGE aspect here - playing a two-way game on defense is much harder than keeping it simple in a defensive role. It's much tougher for an inexperienced young defenseman to find that balance between offense and defense than it is to focus on one side of the puck. Bogosian is trying to break into the NHL with probably the most difficult style and position there is.

I'll take Bogosoian over Schenn without a 2nd thought. He just has a lot more tools at his disposal.

As for Kadri vs Hodgson - give me the well rounded centre that excels in all 3 zones. IMO there's no question Hodgson's game is much better suited for pro than Nazem Kadri's. You won't find a smarter or harder working player than Hodgson - the fact he backs it up with a high end skillevel just reinforces what a blue chip prospect you're dealing with here.

Big no to the proposal as a Canuck fan. The Canucks have no use for Kadri and Schenn would be hard pressed to crack the top 6 on defense. There's zero incentive here on Vancouver's end...

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:50 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
You're overlooking one HUGE aspect here - playing a two-way game on defense is much harder than keeping it simple in a defensive role. It's much tougher for an inexperienced young defenseman to find that balance between offense and defense than it is to focus on one side of the puck. Bogosian is trying to break into the NHL with probably the most difficult style and position there is.

I'll take Bogosoian over Schenn without a 2nd thought. He just has a lot more tools at his disposal.

As for Kadri vs Hodgson - give me the well rounded centre that excels in all 3 zones. IMO there's no question Hodgson's game is much better suited for pro than Nazem Kadri's. You won't find a smarter or harder working player than Hodgson - the fact he backs it up with a high end skillevel just reinforces what a blue chip prospect you're dealing with here.

Big no to the proposal as a Canuck fan. The Canucks have no use for Kadri and Schenn would be hard pressed to crack the top 6 on defense. There's zero incentive here on Vancouver's end...
And I think Zeke would too. He's just saying that their development paths were similar, and they weren't immensely far apart (skill-wise) when they were drafted. Right?

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:52 PM
  #74
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My last word on the Bogo-Schenn comparison.

Bogo has one significant advantage in his upside over Schenn - that is offense. period. He has never been considered to be superior to Schenn in any other way other than in pure offensive upside. I'm not lying when I said they were similarly rated as prospects.

And so far, his offense simply hasn't been there. His one big advantage over Schenn hasn't shown up yet.

So to say that Bogo has had a better 2yrs since being drafted is just wrong.

I understand that offensive skill is the most valuable of skillsets, but Bogo was always considered a risky prospect with good raw skills but a messy game. So far, bogo hasn't developed any faster than Schenn has.

(And where oh where are all these guys who value offensive upside so much when it comes to an argument about Kessel v. J.Staal anyways?)

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Old
09-25-2010, 01:55 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by karzanPalani View Post
Why the **** is Luke Schenn being compared to Zach Bogosian???
Because their similar aged defencemen picked within two picks of each other.....that's why

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