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Around the league continued....(Devils penalized / Ryan re-signs - 5yrs/$25.5M)

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Old
09-02-2010, 07:00 PM
  #1
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Around the league continued....(Devils penalized / Ryan re-signs - 5yrs/$25.5M)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Well most high profile players sign on Day 1... If they wait longer, teams spend their cap space on other players and the market for their services reduces, and the asking price can go down....

Re: Gomez/Drury, you can bet we were among the highest bidders for their services and our location/venue can be pretty attractive... Gomez was living/playing across the river and Drury is a NY Native...
With Redden, it was between us & Columbus, no brainer there....

I'm not convinced we would have landed Kovalchuk if we were pursuing unless we were the highest bidder, because obviously this guy has dollar signs in his eyes....

I guess what I'm getting at here, is it comes down to money first and foremost, and location/market second... I don't think Sather has any special advantage pursuing players other than Dolan's pocketbook and the MSG location working in his favor....

I will say this though, the Rangers organization seems to be pretty good at wooing players... See MZA acquisition and McDonagh... They know how to approach and speak to players to make them feel wanted/welcomed and that goes a long way in getting players to sign their ink on those contracts...
Well knowing slats we DEF would have been the highest bidder haha

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09-02-2010, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
The Devils fans are understandably unhappy with how this whole thing has transpired.

Our board would implode if this sort of thing had happened with us trying to get Gaborik last year.

If the league fines them, it had better be because Lou outright ignored their parameters on the second deal. If he did, then that is flat out unfair.
7.5 million is an absolutely justifiable contract for Gaborik, not to mention it was over 5 years.

It is in no way comparable to Kovy's deal. I do beleive this board would be similiar to the Devils if we were in the same situation....however, from an outsiders point of view the contract is ridiculous and it was right of the league to put an end to this bs.

The fact that Kovy would have had a lower cap hit then redden, boyle, bouwmeester, statsny, jovi, etc just goes to show that it was circumvention. Kovy should easily be in the top 10 for cap hits if it is a justifiable contract right around the gaborik, heatley, staal deals would be fair and unquestioned.

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09-02-2010, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
7.5 million is an absolutely justifiable contract for Gaborik, not to mention it was over 5 years.

It is in no way comparable to Kovy's deal. I do beleive this board would be similiar to the Devils if we were in the same situation....however, from an outsiders point of view the contract is ridiculous and it was right of the league to put an end to this bs.

The fact that Kovy would have had a lower cap hit then redden, boyle, bouwmeester, statsny, jovi, etc just goes to show that it was circumvention. Kovy should easily be in the top 10 for cap hits if it is a justifiable contract right around the gaborik, heatley, staal deals would be fair and unquestioned.
The proposed $6.66 mil cap hit would be more than Redden, Statsny, and Jovi's....

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09-03-2010, 12:26 AM
  #4
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Av's Stewart signs 2 year $3M per contract
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=332441

he led the Avs in goals, 2nd in points
28-36-64 in 77 games. This will be a good benchmark for Callahan and Dubinsky coming into this season. Of course I'd be happy to give them (or have Dolan give them) that money if they were able to put up those numbers.

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09-03-2010, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
7.5 million is an absolutely justifiable contract for Gaborik, not to mention it was over 5 years.

It is in no way comparable to Kovy's deal. I do beleive this board would be similiar to the Devils if we were in the same situation....however, from an outsiders point of view the contract is ridiculous and it was right of the league to put an end to this bs.

The fact that Kovy would have had a lower cap hit then redden, boyle, bouwmeester, statsny, jovi, etc just goes to show that it was circumvention. Kovy should easily be in the top 10 for cap hits if it is a justifiable contract right around the gaborik, heatley, staal deals would be fair and unquestioned.
If Kovalchuk actually lived up to the "greedy" claims that he continues to receive (note that he turned down the Thrashers deals that WOULD have put his cap hit right up there, and repeated turned down blank check offers from the KHL), then you may have something here.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. He wants to win, and he realizes that he has to take a bit of a cut in order to fit.

That's why he goes from making 7.5 this season to making 6 million in the next two years. Yeah, Kovy is a greedy guy, lemme tell ya.

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09-03-2010, 01:00 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Devil View Post
If Kovalchuk actually lived up to the "greedy" claims that he continues to receive (note that he turned down the Thrashers deals that WOULD have put his cap hit right up there, and repeated turned down blank check offers from the KHL), then you may have something here.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. He wants to win, and he realizes that he has to take a bit of a cut in order to fit.

That's why he goes from making 7.5 this season to making 6 million in the next two years. Yeah, Kovy is a greedy guy, lemme tell ya.
So, why must the Devils resort to an illegal contract to fit him under the cap? If he wasn't so greedy, this would have been done a loooooong time ago.

Obviously he didn't want to play (rot) in Atlanta, but that didn't stop him from demanding his 100 million dollars.

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09-03-2010, 05:41 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
The Devils fans are understandably unhappy with how this whole thing has transpired.

Our board would implode if this sort of thing had happened with us trying to get Gaborik last year.

If the league fines them, it had better be because Lou outright ignored their parameters on the second deal. If he did, then that is flat out unfair.
Yeah. There wasn't much of an internet in 1992, but the Ranger community was in uproar when we lost the Lindros decision, similar to what Devils fans are doing right now. There were tons of conspiracy theories floating around back then.

The only thing that is perplexing me about Devils fans is that they refuse to admit that Lou should have given Kovalchuk whatever he wanted before acquiring Arnott, Volchenkov and Tallinder.

You get the prize, then work your magic to fit pieces around him, not the other way around.

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09-03-2010, 08:13 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leopold Stotch View Post
So, why must the Devils resort to an illegal contract to fit him under the cap? If he wasn't so greedy, this would have been done a loooooong time ago.

Obviously he didn't want to play (rot) in Atlanta, but that didn't stop him from demanding his 100 million dollars.
there is nothing illegal about it. Why can't the guy play till he's 42? Who knows what the economies of the A) NHL B) KHL C) United States D) Russia - will be like 15 years from now. That's a lot of $$ to leave on the table, for anyone.

Who knows what kind of milestones and records he'll be chasing, at that age, so he can cement himself as a hall of famer (maybe). His kids will be in highschool / college... and have lived in NJ throughout that time. And yet, everyone assumes he'll just up and leave.

In Related News - I don't care anymore. I just want this to be over, one way or the other.

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09-03-2010, 08:34 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bojanglez View Post
there is nothing illegal about it. Why can't the guy play till he's 42? Who knows what the economies of the A) NHL B) KHL C) United States D) Russia - will be like 15 years from now. That's a lot of $$ to leave on the table, for anyone.

Who knows what kind of milestones and records he'll be chasing, at that age, so he can cement himself as a hall of famer (maybe). His kids will be in highschool / college... and have lived in NJ throughout that time. And yet, everyone assumes he'll just up and leave.

In Related News - I don't care anymore. I just want this to be over, one way or the other.
I don't really have a big problem with the Devils trying to get these contracts through.

And I don't try and argue that he won't be playing in his 40's.

My main issues with this situation is how the Devils are deliberately doing something wrong and using the excuse, "Well, they did it too!"

It's like being a kid and your friend steals something, then you steal something and get caught and try and say well he did it first!

It doesn't justify any of it.

Do I think it's the NHL's fault? Yeah. And you know what? Now they're doing something about it.

The other things that are annoying is how Devils fans actually think that it's the fact that they're the Devils. It's laughable. You're the DEVILS. No ONE gives a **** about you. It's just time for the league to do something about it.

Again, is this fair? No. But the NHL had to do something about this, and the Kovy contract is a step up from anything we've seen so far.

What else is annoying is how Devils fans try and act like Kovy just wants to play in NJ and win.

I don't doubt that he wants to win, but getting his money is his number one priority.

Any Devils fan who thinks otherwise is just crazy.

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09-03-2010, 08:49 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I don't really have a big problem with the Devils trying to get these contracts through.

And I don't try and argue that he won't be playing in his 40's.

My main issues with this situation is how the Devils are deliberately doing something wrong and using the excuse, "Well, they did it too!"

It's like being a kid and your friend steals something, then you steal something and get caught and try and say well he did it first!

It doesn't justify any of it.

Do I think it's the NHL's fault? Yeah. And you know what? Now they're doing something about it.

The other things that are annoying is how Devils fans actually think that it's the fact that they're the Devils. It's laughable. You're the DEVILS. No ONE gives a **** about you. It's just time for the league to do something about it.

Again, is this fair? No. But the NHL had to do something about this, and the Kovy contract is a step up from anything we've seen so far.

What else is annoying is how Devils fans try and act like Kovy just wants to play in NJ and win.

I don't doubt that he wants to win, but getting his money is his number one priority.

Any Devils fan who thinks otherwise is just crazy.
He wants his $$, and he wants to be on a competitive team. That's clear, and I think that is fair. Otherwise he would A) sign a cheaper contract with a team like Vancouver or Detroit, or B) sign that ATlanta deal. The NJ is the best of both worlds... where the LA contract is a similar level of competition, just not as much $$.

A lot of Devil fans are quite clear about this. We're not all naive enough to think he has an incredible attraction for the organization. A lot of us also realize we don't even need him. That the $$ can be better served elsewhere. I am one of those people... but admittedly would like him to sign, because he's exciting to watch. And he does make us better - even if he's not the best move to make. I realize you're taking some select posters and generalizing a bit here. But realize I don't share all of their views.

I've said it before... if the Kovalchuk deal gets rejected, and other contracts get compromised... I'm ok with that. There is a level of feeling like we're being singled out. I don't think its related to NJ... but this deal in general is singled out. And to be fair, that is annoying. Look at all the other contracts (Except Vinny L), that have some "issues." All those players are on playoff teams. They all received a competitive advantage.

I realize these contracts, on some levels suck. But i also agree with the idea of front-loading (and backloading, as in Parise's current contract)... the idea of a player making different amounts of salary in different years. And I also believe that you should get a lower cap hit, if you sign a guy for so long. DiPietro's contract was a perfect example of that. At that time, DiPietro was a top10 goalie... making less than $5m. How did they get such a low cap hit? But signing him for so long. It was part of the bargain. I always understood the concept of these deals. I realized they were a bit bogus, but at the same time I wasn't up in arms about Hossa or Luongo or Savard. I'm voicing my distaste, because now when its my team's time... we're getting jipped.

Regardless, those are just my views on it. And OF COURSE, there are differences in all these contracts... and the Devils combined the best of all of them to make the Big Daddy of 'em all contract - which, I realize is what makes it stand out. We don't need to talk about that. The first contract was ridiculous. But I don't think the second one is. He's young, has no injury history... he most certainly can play this out. If Hossa can, surely Kovalchuk can. Tacking on $7m at the end of it is a sign of good faith. I mentioned my reasons above why he very well will play the contract out.

----

Why I'm confused is, why do so many Ranger fans want this to fall through?

To be honest, the Ranger organization clearly has a lot of money. It would seem to me that, given historical precedence with this club as well as the city as a whole in regards to sports, that the Rangers fans would be in favor of this loophole. So long as you pick the right player, you would think the Rangers organization can sign two diesel players next year, and receive a low cap hit.


Last edited by Mr Bojanglez: 09-03-2010 at 08:54 AM.
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09-03-2010, 09:00 AM
  #11
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The Devils are just tagging on "fake years" so they can get Kovalchuk at a below the market cap hit. The Devils fan above who says "he'll be chasing milestones blah blah blah" yeah buddy thats why it just conveniently changes from a NMC to a NTC.... This situation is a combination of Kovalchuk being greedy cause he wants his 100 mill and the Devils trying to exploit a loophole that the NHL brass is fed up with in order to get him under the cap. And this can't be compared to Gaborik cause we signed him for 5 years and he gets the same 7.5 mil each year... we didn't sign him for ten years at 7.5 and then tag on 5 fake years to drive the average down.

Its bs, and frankly it's making me hate the Devils more for all the negative attention its bringing to the NHL.

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09-03-2010, 09:11 AM
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I don't wanna see this contract fall through because a good player is going to the Devils, and I don't want the Rangers signing contracts like this in the future. If all GMs starting doing this the Cap would be irrelevant and all the teams with money would get all the good players.

I think the NHL should somehow fix this loophole find a middle ground with the NHLPA, and then give teams a "homegrown discount" like in the NBA. You can pay your homegrown guys a little more and it would count as hard on the cap.

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09-03-2010, 09:19 AM
  #13
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If Kovy really wants to win he'll sign for as long as Brodeur is still under contract.

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09-03-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bojanglez View Post
He wants his $$, and he wants to be on a competitive team. That's clear, and I think that is fair. Otherwise he would A) sign a cheaper contract with a team like Vancouver or Detroit, or B) sign that ATlanta deal. The NJ is the best of both worlds... where the LA contract is a similar level of competition, just not as much $$.

A lot of Devil fans are quite clear about this. We're not all naive enough to think he has an incredible attraction for the organization. A lot of us also realize we don't even need him. That the $$ can be better served elsewhere. I am one of those people... but admittedly would like him to sign, because he's exciting to watch. And he does make us better - even if he's not the best move to make. I realize you're taking some select posters and generalizing a bit here. But realize I don't share all of their views.

I've said it before... if the Kovalchuk deal gets rejected, and other contracts get compromised... I'm ok with that. There is a level of feeling like we're being singled out. I don't think its related to NJ... but this deal in general is singled out. And to be fair, that is annoying. Look at all the other contracts (Except Vinny L), that have some "issues." All those players are on playoff teams. They all received a competitive advantage.

I realize these contracts, on some levels suck. But i also agree with the idea of front-loading (and backloading, as in Parise's current contract)... the idea of a player making different amounts of salary in different years. And I also believe that you should get a lower cap hit, if you sign a guy for so long. DiPietro's contract was a perfect example of that. At that time, DiPietro was a top10 goalie... making less than $5m. How did they get such a low cap hit? But signing him for so long. It was part of the bargain. I always understood the concept of these deals. I realized they were a bit bogus, but at the same time I wasn't up in arms about Hossa or Luongo or Savard. I'm voicing my distaste, because now when its my team's time... we're getting jipped.

Regardless, those are just my views on it. And OF COURSE, there are differences in all these contracts... and the Devils combined the best of all of them to make the Big Daddy of 'em all contract - which, I realize is what makes it stand out. We don't need to talk about that. The first contract was ridiculous. But I don't think the second one is. He's young, has no injury history... he most certainly can play this out. If Hossa can, surely Kovalchuk can. Tacking on $7m at the end of it is a sign of good faith. I mentioned my reasons above why he very well will play the contract out.

----

Why I'm confused is, why do so many Ranger fans want this to fall through?

To be honest, the Ranger organization clearly has a lot of money. It would seem to me that, given historical precedence with this club as well as the city as a whole in regards to sports, that the Rangers fans would be in favor of this loophole. So long as you pick the right player, you would think the Rangers organization can sign two diesel players next year, and receive a low cap hit.

Yeah I'm not the biggest Kovalchuk guy, I was adamant about not wanting the Rangers to go after him. I just didn't think he's the right guy at this point for our organization.

Definitely generalizing with some, but at the same time I do think the majority of fans on your board have this "why the Devils" mentality that it's not so much a generalization.

What I don't understand, like I said, is this idea of "Well they did it too!"

That doesn't justify it.

I also don't understand the ones who then complain about the idea of us sending Redden to Hartford and saying that we'd be circumventing the cap.

Or all the ones who were in the uproar over Huet going to Switzerland.

Then Devils fans use this as proof that the league is out to screw the Devils!

You bring up the times the Devils have done this same thing with players and there's always some justifiable reason for why it was okay when they did it, but it's BS if other teams do.

That's what's most annoying. This mentality that most seem to have that this is all about the league screwing over the Devils and how most seem to not be able to look at things from both sides.

To me, it's a weird deal and one I would be wary of if I were a Devils fan (and I'm not talking about from a financial standpoint).

This goes against EVERYTHING the Devils have ever been and stood for. It goes against everything Lou is about. And it's clear this is not Lou's decision, and he really is having his hands tied by Kovy and his owners.

I'm honestly not sure what I want to happen. Obviously I want whatever is worse for the Devils on the ice.

I'm not sure if it's worse for you guys to sign him and have to rid yourself of other roster players and deal with his cap hit and everything else along the way.

Or if it's worse that he doesn't get signed at this point and the possibility of possible penalties against you.

It'll all play out soon enough though.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Also, to answer your last point, I think that when you're not involved directly you realize what BS it is. Like you said, it's your team so you have a different opinion of it.

If it were the Rangers, plenty of fans would want the deal to go through. But when you're on the outside looking in you see the BS of it all.

Also, we have a GM who has been adamant that he does not believe in these kind of contracts.

I think that Lou is actually the same as Glen in that way, however this is clearly not his doing. Ownership is telling him what to do.

Which, as a mentioned, is a cause for concern if I'm a Devils fan.

Could Mr. Dolan demand the same of Sather in the future? Sure. But it's not likely, seeing as Dolan usually lets Sather run everything as he see fits (see: Redden, Wade, $6.5 million per year playing hockey in Hartford).

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09-03-2010, 09:55 AM
  #15
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NHL To Either Postpone Decision or Reject Kovy Contract:

As per TSN:

Quote:
An amendment to the CBA and the fate of Ilya Kovalchuk's contract are tied together, so it's conceivable, the NHL will postpone its decision, or flat out reject the Devils latest offer until a more concise framework of what teams, players and player agents can and cannot do is agreed on.

The NHL and the NHLPA had productive discussions on Thursday regarding potential changes to the rules that govern players contracts, however, at this point, it seems unlikely the two sides will reach a settlement, complete with a vote from the PA's 30 player board in time for todays 5pm deadline to determine the validity of Kovalchuk's proposed contract with the New Jersey Devils.

The two sides will continue to negotiate throughout the day in an effort to reach a settlement.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=332498

NHL and NHLPA still trying to hammer out details of the changes to the CBA, then once that's done the 30 team player rep's have to vote on those changes. IMO this could take a couple more weeks.

On a side note, the KHL season starts next week, I believe. Things could get real interesting real fast if the NHL just rejects the contract while the details of the amendments to the CBA are hashed out.

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09-03-2010, 10:05 AM
  #16
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If Kovalchuk actually lived up to the "greedy" claims that he continues to receive (note that he turned down the Thrashers deals that WOULD have put his cap hit right up there, and repeated turned down blank check offers from the KHL), then you may have something here.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. He wants to win, and he realizes that he has to take a bit of a cut in order to fit.

That's why he goes from making 7.5 this season to making 6 million in the next two years. Yeah, Kovy is a greedy guy, lemme tell ya.
Oh yea, Kovalchuk is so generous he's willing to take his 100+ million dollars spread over more then a decade.

Let's send him charity letters because he's taking such a pay cut. How will this generous man ever feed his family making 6 million dollars yearly.

His job is so important to the world.

How much does a soldier (rank E-3) in the US Army make? Roughly 15 K.

How much to fire fighters make?

I'm sorry, but he didn't take a "pay cut" (that's hilarious) because he wants to "win". He HAS to take a "pay cut" because NO ONE ELSE found it responsible to give him what he wants.

He was so loyal to NJD by going to LA repeatedly to get them to cave into his demands?

I said it before, he priced himself out of a lot of jobs.

But wait, that's xenophobic!!! I don't care if he's Russian or Marsian or from planet Zud. He's looking to cash in. With or without the realization that the team around him will eventually have to be significantly worse because too much money is tied into himself and a couple of others on the team.

So... I hope he signs in NJ. All those NJD fans screaming bloody murder about the Rangers (who have a younger team by average despite a couple of bad contracts) will be nothing more then hypocrites.

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09-03-2010, 10:10 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Oh yea, Kovalchuk is so generous he's willing to take his 100+ million dollars spread over more then a decade.

Let's send him charity letters because he's taking such a pay cut. How will this generous man ever feed his family making 6 million dollars yearly.

His job is so important to the world.

How much does a soldier (rank E-3) in the US Army make? Roughly 15 K.

How much to fire fighters make?

I'm sorry, but he didn't take a "pay cut" (that's hilarious) because he wants to "win". He HAS to take a "pay cut" because NO ONE ELSE found it responsible to give him what he wants.

He was so loyal to NJD by going to LA repeatedly to get them to cave into his demands?

I said it before, he priced himself out of a lot of jobs.

But wait, that's xenophobic!!! I don't care if he's Russian or Marsian or from planet Zud. He's looking to cash in. With or without the realization that the team around him will eventually have to be significantly worse because too much money is tied into himself and a couple of others on the team.

So... I hope he signs in NJ. All those NJD fans screaming bloody murder about the Rangers (who have a younger team by average despite a couple of bad contracts) will be nothing more then hypocrites.

I'm not one to call players greedy. IMHO you're worth what someone will pay you.

I do agree with most of your post though.

And again, Devils fans are delusional if they think that he wants to play for their organization.

I really don't think he cares about the organization, it's the money.

Right now Kovalchuk sees it as he has owners who are willing to pay him what he wants.

The problem is can he get it because the league is stopping him.

If he can't, I expect he'll go to Russia for one year, and next offseason he'll sell himself to the highest NHL bidder.

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09-03-2010, 10:24 AM
  #18
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there is nothing illegal about it. Why can't the guy play till he's 42?
Because he didn't ask for a 15 or 17 year deal????

The league doesn't like these deals because it's the GM's pushing for and determining the term (LENGTH) of these contracts, NOT the players... Does anyone for a second believe that Kovalchuk and Jay Grossman sat down at the negotiating table and stipulated that he must have a 15+ year deal on the table? Obviously not, the player's interest in salary, not term.... He demands a certain salary or overall total of compensation... We know they didn't stipulate the term because the L.A. offers were no more than 12 years... Why were NJ's offers 17 and 15? New Jersey must be such a great franchise to play for that he wants to play there an extra 3-5 years , right? Obviously the owners/GM is tacking on years to reduce the cap hit.... Did Marcel Hossa and his agent demand nothing short of a 12 year contract? I don't think so.... The GM's are determining the length of these contracts so they can have a more manageable cap hit... The players don't' care about the length because they know they can voluntarily retire at their preferred age after making the bulk of the money they are owed and demanded when the contract was signed.... There is no stated intent on behalf of the actual players to fulfill these absurdly long contracts and play them out... They are getting their money over their preferred time frame and have no vested interest to play out these contracts at those older ages... It's extremely disingenuous...


Last edited by wolfgaze: 09-03-2010 at 10:40 AM.
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09-03-2010, 10:35 AM
  #19
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If it gets rejected again, I gotta think Kovy to the KHL for at least a year.

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09-03-2010, 10:37 AM
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09-03-2010, 10:39 AM
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If it gets rejected again, I gotta think Kovy to the KHL for at least a year.
If you're telling me we've gotta go through this again next summer, I'M going on strike.

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09-03-2010, 10:41 AM
  #22
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dont have a problem with it, but if you are going to sign these long term deals, if he leaves or retires after age 35,the cap hit should stay until the contract runs out when he hit 42

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09-03-2010, 10:42 AM
  #23
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dont have a problem with it, but if you are going to sign these long term deals, if he leaves or retires after age 35,the cap hit should stay until the contract runs out when he hit 42
Yep. Make the over 35 rule apply to everyone whos contract takes them past age 35.

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09-03-2010, 10:43 AM
  #24
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So, why must the Devils resort to an illegal contract to fit him under the cap? If he wasn't so greedy, this would have been done a loooooong time ago.

Obviously he didn't want to play (rot) in Atlanta, but that didn't stop him from demanding his 100 million dollars.
If you were a top 10 hockey player in the world, you'd be doing the same friggin thing.

The hypocrisy and conjecture regarding Kovalchuk's intentions has been absolutely absurd these last couple of months.

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09-03-2010, 10:47 AM
  #25
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He may just get tired of this BS too and bolt to KHL soon.

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