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06-07-2004, 01:10 PM
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Serena587
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Nice Article on Doug Murray

From the Barons website:

http://www.clevelandbarons.net/baron...1086623411.htm

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06-07-2004, 01:26 PM
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A nice media relations feel-good story. Hopefully Murray's shoulder heals well. I'd be more encouraged if I were reading he was going to power skating school. You watch purely defensive-defensemen like Nolan Pratt for Tampa, and he can skate rather well. Then there's someone like Cory Sarich. The improvement Sarich has made since he first cracked the NHL, wow!

I'm not certain Murray will crack San Jose, but if he continues to improve other teams would take interest. Others probably already have some interest already. I realize that, yes, Murray has improved, but now Scott Ford is in the mix. I can't wait to see how things unfold with Ford. The type of game Ford plays, he's going to be in direct competition with Murray.

Big: The Cedar Rapids RoughRiders have a player named Phil Axtell who's 6'6" 270 pounds! Watching RoughRider tryouts this weekend, he's got good hands, decent edge control, but needs more speed and could actually afford to drop down to 245 or 250.

Keep an eye out for the name Hunter Bishop in the future too. He's an '87 and he's DAMN good. Excellent speed, good hands, good offensive awareness. He's from Fairbanks, Alaska and he should be a good one. He stood out to me, especially considering his age.

Draft-eligible Derek Peltier, who's going to Minnesota this coming season, was at camp. Man did he play well. Whoever drafts him this year is getting a good two-way defenseman. He's really matured the past two seasons.

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06-07-2004, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
A nice media relations feel-good story. Hopefully Murray's shoulder heals well. I'd be more encouraged if I were reading he was going to power skating school. You watch purely defensive-defensemen like Nolan Pratt for Tampa, and he can skate rather well. Then there's someone like Cory Sarich. The improvement Sarich has made since he first cracked the NHL, wow!
Here we go again. You see one game, and you're pointing out things that don't even apply to the player in question. Doug Murray has minimal problems skating. The only main problem he has is his tendency to free-lance sometimes. His skating is not an issue and hasn't been since the second week of the season. Check your sources, seeing as though you don't get your information firsthand. As I've said before, Murray compensates very well for his shortcomings in acceleration. He also has very good balance. Murray has no problem keeping up with cycling forwards, or getting back on an oddman rush, or an even rush. As for the purely defensive statement, purely defensive defensemen don't see powerplay time. Murray does, and he contributes on that powerplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
I'm not certain Murray will crack San Jose, but if he continues to improve other teams would take interest. Others probably already have some interest already. I realize that, yes, Murray has improved, but now Scott Ford is in the mix. I can't wait to see how things unfold with Ford. The type of game Ford plays, he's going to be in direct competition with Murray.
From what I hear on Ford, and that's all I can go by, Conboy is a better defenseman than him. I do hope to see them both in Barons sweaters next year. As for Murray cracking SJ's lineup, that won't happen. Ehrhoff will be up, along with Fahey and Davison. And then the obvious top four SJ has in McLaren, Rathje, Stuart, and Hannan. Murray will be Cleveland's number one blueliner again next year and hopefully, for his sake, SJ trades a defenseman and Murray gets his chance.

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06-07-2004, 06:06 PM
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Here you go again. The last time this happened I never even mentioned you and you came out of nowhere and got in a tizzy just because I was impressed with Zalesak's skill level and because I had any doubts whatsoever about Murray.

I want to know at exactly what number of games a person has a right to say anything about a player. Did you know most NHL teams that take players from Russia only see the two to five times? Now of course, you get a quick read right away, but I'm an idiot heading to the bottom of the media barrel, so, for the rest of us morons, what exact number of games must we see a player to say anything? Must they be in one year or over the past few years? (Murray did play for Cornell after all for a few years, on TV now and again...)

No doubt Murray solved years of skating problems in two weeks...

Murray's compensation: May work fine in the AHL, but the NHL is a different story. If Murray's skating is better now, grand. His whole skating problem has always been foot speed, lateral movement and acceleration, it's not as if he was falling down skating forward. I will remain skeptical on Murray eventually becoming more than a fifth or sixth defenseman in the NHL until he proves otherwise. When one considers that guys like Nolan Pratt are 6th/7th defensemen in the NHL, or Cory Cross is a 5th/6th defenseman, or guys like Jason Marshall are 7th defensemen, one realizes the uphill battle ANY defenseman faces, not just Murray.

Also, considering who else San Jose has in the system, I will remain skeptical that Murray will ever play full-time for San Jose. Explain to me how he beats out the ever-improving Rob Davison? Or Tom Preissing, who you left off your San Jose depth chart.


Last edited by Kevin Wey: 06-07-2004 at 06:25 PM.
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06-07-2004, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Here you go again. The last time this happened I never even mentioned you and you came out of nowhere and got in a tizzy just because I was impressed with Zalesak's skill level and because I had any doubts whatsoever about Murray.
Skill level only gets you so far. Zalesak doesn't have the heart, something you apparently don't look for in a player.

It's not that you have doubts about Murray, it's that you have no evidence to back them up. I watched Murray at Cornell, and watched him here. There's a hell of a lot more improvement than you give him. I guarantee Murray knows far better what he needs than you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
I want to know at exactly what number of games a person has a right to say anything about a player. Did you know most NHL teams that take players from Russia only see the two to five times? Now of course, you get a quick read right away, but I'm an idiot heading to the bottom of the media barrel, so, for the rest of us morons, what exact number of games must we see a player to say anything? Must they be in one year or over the past few years? (Murray did play for Cornell after all for a few years, on TV now and again...)
Well, let's not forget that those same NHL people you refer to do talk to other people around the league, coaches in the Russian league, and other players who were in that program. You on the other hand go making your own judgements seeing a player all of four times. Maybe if you had the same resources these professional scouts have, I'd see your thoughts. My book is not closed on Murray, but he's a hell of a lot better skater than you give him credit for. Reminds me of Goc, saying he favors his leg. No. He has an alternative skating stride. That shows me how much you know about the skating aspect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Murray's compensation: May work fine in the AHL, but the NHL is a different story. If Murray's skating is better now, grand. His whole skating problem has always been foot speed, lateral movement and acceleration, it's not as if he was falling down skating forward. I will remain skeptical on Murray eventually becoming more than a fifth or sixth defenseman in the NHL until he proves otherwise. When one considers that guys like Nolan Pratt are 6th/7th defensemen in the NHL, or Cory Cross is a 5th/6th defenseman, or guys like Jason Marshall are 7th defensemen, one realizes the uphill battle ANY defenseman faces, not just Murray.
Lots of guys don't have exceptional speed, but they are smart hockey players, i.e. Robyn Regehr. The next time Murray gets burned, I'll be sure to bow down to your astute opinions on Murray. Until then, come watch 40 games here and then make your decision. I agree with you on the acceleration part, but not many guys carry around 240 pounds very easily. If you are in the proper position, you don't have to worry about acceleration. Murray's rarely caught out of position in his own end and if he is, he makes up for it with either his reach, or his size to funnel people off. You know, the things you don't get to see.

Edit:Not saying 40 games is what makes enough time to judge a player, but it's enough to get a good read on what someone can become.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Also, considering who else San Jose has in the system, I will remain skeptical that Murray will ever play full-time for San Jose. Explain to me how he beats out the ever-improving Rob Davison? Or Tom Preissing, who you left off your San Jose depth chart.
Preissing doesn't impress me one bit. Not only does he have trouble headmaning the puck, he also has difficulty below the circles. I'd rather Murray not play in the San Jose organization because the role he would play is already filled. Rob Davison has improved very little. In seeing him two years here, and seeing the games he did play with SJ, he's the same defenseman he was when he was here. He doesn't fight as much though, and he has gotten slightly quicker.

You know Kevin, it's not even the fact that you have doubts that bother me. It's the fact that in seeing 3 or 4 games, especially ones on TV, you won't even see half of the things Murray does. Is there a reason you just can't accept the fact that I will pass far better judgement than you can because I've seen far more of the player? You don't see Zalesak lagging behind in the play. I do. You don't see Zalesak shying away from hits and giving up the puck softly. I do. Skill level means nothing when you don't have the balls to use your skill. Sure he had points, and he led the league for a time. Unfortunately, you won't make the next step unless you either have exceptional talent in one form (offense or defense) or you are a complete player. Zalesak has no exceptional talent, and isn't a complete player. It helps to ask from time to time instead of thinking all of the answers are yours, especially about players who people get to see a lot more often.


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06-08-2004, 12:41 PM
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I'm fully aware of Zalesak's heart, or lack thereof. I've never said he'd become a great NHL player. In fact, in prospect ratings, I've never ranked him high or rated him high, because of that. But that doesn't eliminate the fact he has great skills. That's all I said, you're the one who then assumed I thought he deserved a place in the NHL. You're still assuming it.

Murray: I don't deny Murray has improved, but it doesn't change my projection of him. My projection of him as a fifth or sixth defenseman always required making improvements to his conditioning and skating. 'Cause if he didn't do that, he'd never play in the NHL. All these things you compliment Murray on are common traits in the NHL. They're pre-requisities to even playing in the NHL: they're not THAT special by NHL standards. That's why I ask what about Murray makes him equal to or superior to guys like Cory Cross, Nolan Pratt, or Jason Marshall. Common 5th-7th defensemen.

Hells bells, even Murray admits he needs to improve. Secondly, I don't see why you're all bent out of shape, because stories like this on team websites are always feel good stories. Heck, the Sharks had a feel good story about Eric Laplante a couple years ago, and we know what happened in the end. Not that THAT will happen to Murray, but that's just the nature of stories released by teams. They're going to be stories favorable to the team. We're not going to see a story from the Sharks about Jonathan Tremblay that says, "Not particularly good at hockey, but fights well, although the signing of Glen Olson makes the drafting of Tremblay seem unnecessary."

Regehr: Broke into the NHL at what age? Was drafted in what round? Murray is a 24-year-old still in the AHL. You can argue major juniors all you want, but Murray failed to crack San Jose after four years of college while Preissing did crack San Jose. Collegiate players who enter the pros at age 23 or 24 and have to first play in the AHL for more than a season don't generally go on to become top NHL players, which must be what you think will become of Murray since you've said he could be a second defenseman in the NHL and my stance on Murray's future as a 5th or 6th defenseman is well known.

I know you're going to pull out some large list of players who played half a season or a season in the AHL, but pay attention to their age when they played in the AHL and also position. Top defensemen have tracks more like that of Stuart and Hannan. The collegiate defensemen who become top NHL defensemen generally crack the NHL straight away, and many left college early. Rafalski is an exception, but Murray ain't quite like Rafalski. Rafalski's timing was bad, now Rafalski is part of the movement proving the worth of small puckmoving defensemen again.

Goc's skating: He was not favoring a leg in all subsequent games. I have all of his playoff games on tape. He probably had a bad skate blade in his debut, that's all. His stride looked fine in Chicago, it looked fine in the WJC's, and it looked fine in all other games with the Sharks.


Last edited by Kevin Wey: 06-08-2004 at 12:47 PM.
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06-08-2004, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
I'm fully aware of Zalesak's heart, or lack thereof. I've never said he'd become a great NHL player. In fact, in prospect ratings, I've never ranked him high or rated him high, because of that. But that doesn't eliminate the fact he has great skills. That's all I said, you're the one who then assumed I thought he deserved a place in the NHL. You're still assuming it.
I'm not assuming anything. You've said before that you think Zalesak should be in the NHL. No need to go back on your statements now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Murray: I don't deny Murray has improved, but it doesn't change my projection of him. My projection of him as a fifth or sixth defenseman always required making improvements to his conditioning and skating. 'Cause if he didn't do that, he'd never play in the NHL. All these things you compliment Murray on are common traits in the NHL. They're pre-requisities to even playing in the NHL: they're not THAT special by NHL standards. That's why I ask what about Murray makes him equal to or superior to guys like Cory Cross, Nolan Pratt, or Jason Marshall. Common 5th-7th defensemen.
Common traits in the NHL? Really? Show me how common they are then. I don't see every single NHL defenseman being smart enough to step up in the right spots. Hell, I didn't even see it often enough in the Stanley Cup final, with our sport's supposed top two teams in the league. You don't have to be that special to make the NHL. You have to be consistent. Murray is consistent. Goc was consistent. You wrote Goc off too. Consistency is something that doesn't always show up on the scoresheet. Consistency isn't as common as you seem to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Hells bells, even Murray admits he needs to improve. Secondly, I don't see why you're all bent out of shape, because stories like this on team websites are always feel good stories. Heck, the Sharks had a feel good story about Eric Laplante a couple years ago, and we know what happened in the end. Not that THAT will happen to Murray, but that's just the nature of stories released by teams. They're going to be stories favorable to the team. We're not going to see a story from the Sharks about Jonathan Tremblay that says, "Not particularly good at hockey, but fights well, although the signing of Glen Olson makes the drafting of Tremblay seem unnecessary."
Your feel good story comment is another thing that irritated me. Almost as if the story means nothing except PR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Regehr: Broke into the NHL at what age? Was drafted in what round? Murray is a 24-year-old still in the AHL. You can argue major juniors all you want, but Murray failed to crack San Jose after four years of college while Preissing did crack San Jose. Collegiate players who enter the pros at age 23 or 24 and have to first play in the AHL for more than a season don't generally go on to become top NHL players, which must be what you think will become of Murray since you've said he could be a second defenseman in the NHL and my stance on Murray's future as a 5th or 6th defenseman is well known.
Major juniors is definitely better caliber than collegiate hockey. Preissing was far more expected to crack San Jose than Murray was. This organization passes judgement far too quickly on players, and I've seen it all the way along as Cleveland has been their affiliate. I never said Murray could be a second defenseman for San Jose, but I feel as though he can be on a different team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
I know you're going to pull out some large list of players who played half a season or a season in the AHL, but pay attention to their age when they played in the AHL and also position. Top defensemen have tracks more like that of Stuart and Hannan. The collegiate defensemen who become top NHL defensemen generally crack the NHL straight away, and many left college early. Rafalski is an exception, but Murray ain't quite like Rafalski. Rafalski's timing was bad, now Rafalski is part of the movement proving the worth of small puckmoving defensemen again.
I'm not going to do that because god forbid Kevin Wey ever see proof of something against him. Like how Serena, majicpixie, and myself called Goc's appearance on SJ this season. As for Murray not leaving college early, when I asked him about that, he said it was because he wanted to complete his educational programs, and that he could have left early had he wanted to. To some, that's important. First you compare Murray to Cory Cross, and now to Rafalski? Try a little consistency here. You compare too much. Players develop and succeed differently based on the systems they are in. Rafalski's system as a Devil is far different than Murray's would be as a Shark. Comparisons are very inaccurate because you can look up and down every team's roster and see comparisons that were either overhyped or not hyped enough. Alexandre Daigle is a prime example. Martin St. Louis went over and beyond the comparisons that he saw throughout his playing days. Every player is different, and you can play your comparison game all you want. I see something that sets Murray aside. You don't, and you won't because you don't get to see him for 45 games a year. We'll never agree, except to disagree. I don't mind your comparisons when you see him, because then it looks like you actually compared them. But you can't compare them, because you haven't seen half of your assumption. Comparing players based on stats or age or whatnot doesn't do a damn thing and it doesn't prove a damn thing to me. Comparing players based on the ability you have seen, which, you don't have that ability seeing as though you saw one game, validates the comparison just a little bit better.

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06-08-2004, 04:13 PM
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I don't know why you are arguin Kevin's knowledge of Doug Murray...he's been postin for years about how he was a player to watch during his college years.

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06-08-2004, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero of Tragedy
I don't know why you are arguin Kevin's knowledge of Doug Murray...he's been postin for years about how he was a player to watch during his college years.
Because that's the point of a message board.

That's great. If he was such a player to watch, watching him would be an accurate way to back that up, now wouldn't it?

I'm arguing his knowledge because I see holes in it. Just because Kevin Wey has his personal knowledge of Doug Murray doesn't mean I can't rebut it...or maybe I can't because he's a Sharks writer and we're all inferior cause people from Cleveland don't know anything about hockey.

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06-08-2004, 04:30 PM
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Goc: The only reason he played was because of injuries. Did I ever say he'd play bad if he did play? No. I've been on the Goc bandwagon longer than ANY Shark fan, and especially Barons fan. Three years ago just around today I was calling for San Jose to draft Goc in the first round if Krajicek was gone. Well, Krajicek wasn't gone, but they took Goc and more than solved why I called for Krajicek with Ehrhoff. So I'm suddenly going to turn on someone I wanted before he was ever a Shark? Plus, I've been accused, by you no less, of having a German bias. You're full of it, I never said Goc would play poorly.

More Goc: You're full of s....having creme with your "alternate skating stride" comments. You're going to tell me that favoring <B>ONE</B> hip is considered an alternate skating stride? No, that's called a skating stride problem. And I said he favored <B>ONE</B> hip in that one game, so you can't misconstrue it as something else.

It's one thing to skate upright and favor your <B>BOTH</B> of your hips when skating, as opposed to skating lower using the thighs more, but NOBODY proposes favoring one hip when skating as a good skating stride. Even skating upright is somewhat frowned upon by power skating instructors. They tell their students "Get down lower!" instead of of "don't bend your knees, skate with your hips!" Every power skating instructor I've ever worked with has stressed to stay low and that having equal power with both legs is favorable. Favoring one hip/leg is a sign of an imbalance, an injury, or a skate blade problem.

Lastly, Marcel Goc doesn't consistently favor ONE hip like I said he was in his first NHL game anyway. He hasn't shown it since, leaving me to believe it was an equipment problem. In fact, Goc's skating stride is just fine. An alternate skating stride is Wayne Gretzky's hunched over style or Wayne Primeau's more upright style. (Man, Primeau's skating took a step backwards in the playoffs. He was running on his skates on one attempted breakaway. Ick)

Zalesak: I said he'd be in the NHL if he had a stronger work ethic. You always put words in my mouth though, just like you twisted Wild GM's statement about being rude as a quote of mine. Zalesak has NHL skills, that's not debatable. I've never said he had an NHL work ethic. He can develop it if he wants though. Developing a work ethic is easier than teaching talent. An old Shark, Perry Berezan, had a great quote about how he was a scoring through college, but then reached the NHL, and suddenly he had to learn to play defense, because his offense wasn't good enough at the NHL level. And so Perry became an NHLer known for his two-way play, especially defense, with a strong work ethic.

Consistency: Have I ever said either were inconsistent? Second, actually, inconsistency does show up in game reports. Inconsistency of results. Guess what? The Sharks tried really hard every game in 92-93: results, not effort count. Normally a player has to have a consistent effort to get results, but there are lots of players who have fine work ethics but never play in the NHL, or the AHL, etc. The Sharks tend to draft players with strong work ethics, because that does generally lead to success.

If you paid attention to all these players I say I want the Sharks to draft, you'll read how they all have strong work ethics. But who needs to read when you can go with the Adam Burke "I Said So Postulate." Plus, you've been following hockey closely for 14 years, meaning you've followed it <i>closely</i> since you were three. You'd think following hockey so closely so longer, you could give me a comparison between Doug Murray and Cory Cross, who's been in the NHL how long, but you refuse for some reason. Supposedly because you haven't seen Cross a lot...but if you've been following hockey closely for longer than Cross has been in the NHL...

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06-08-2004, 04:48 PM
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Wow Kevin... I hope your proud of yourself for that post, because I was amazed by it.

Why should I bother caring about Cory Cross? He is less than mediocre. Know why I don't care about Cory Cross? Cause I don't need to use him as a comparison to anyone or anything. Because Doug Murray is not Cory Cross, nor will he ever be.

I love how you get so uptight when someone contradicts you. I just piss on your ideas for fun, to watch as you wriggle off the hook, retracting statements and then changing them. As I discussed with Max, Goc has an alternate skating stride much like that of Pavel Datysuk. You don't seem to be contradicting him ever. Only me. Keep dating yourself, making yourself feel smarter for your knowledge of mediocre hockey players Kevin. It means absolutely nothing now. Nobody here cares about the days of Cory Cross. Nobody. Well, you do.

I wouldn't put anything in your mouth Kevin, especially words. You've got your high and mighty stature as an HF writer. But if you're so high and mighty, let's look down on the lesser folk Kevin. The people who you feel as though they are inferior. I don't see you asking for Karen's input on the subject. Why? Because she'll side with me? I'd bet she knows about our prospect pool. She's a writer too. That means she has knowledge of what she's talking about. She knows the same things about the Barons that I do. In fact, to be quite honest with you, she knows more about the Barons than you do Kevin. Imagine that! But no, I'm just a kid, I don't know anything. That's my whole issue. It's not your knowledge I'm questioning. It's you as a person. Humble yourself and understand something. You don't know it all about every single player. And neither do I. The fact remains I know the Barons better than you do. I don't really give a damn that you've followed them since college. That's great. Congratulations! The past no longer matters. You don't see Jonathan Cheechoo explaining how he played as a Baron. You know why? Because no one cares. Much like your comments about past Shark scouts, or former NHL players.

So let's see it Kevin. Let's see hockey history at work. Since you're so convinced of Doug Murray as a 6th defenseman, compare him to every NHL 6th defenseman in history. Come on, continue to refer to players of the past because you don't have the visual basis to make your own judgements. You just compare him to someone else as an easy way out.

You know why I don't pay attention to who you want them to draft? Because you are not the GM. I don't give a rat's ass what you want. I do, however, care what DW wants and I'll read on the guy after he's drafted. I don't have this massive quest for knowledge on every player. I'm sorry, my life has more worth than that. I'm sure this post'll get me in trouble, but it needs to be said. I don't like you Kevin. And I don't agree with your opinion. But this would be a hell of a lot easier had you not made a cheap comment about power skating school. I don't see you making the improvements you need to make it to professional hockey. I wouldn't mind you if you were able to distinguish your own interpretations of a player based on enough evidence of his play. But you can't. I think someone with as much hockey knowledge as you have, and I will admit, you are knowledgable with hockey, no doubt, but taking a cheap shot like that was inexcusable. It started this whole thing. I didn't have a problem with your post, because I agree Murray has some small skating issues to improve on. But taking cheap shots at someone I respect a lot more than you because he has taken his game to a good enough to level to play because he has worked at it is far from respectable.

Take care of this thread HoT, cause I know I'm done with it.


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06-08-2004, 04:57 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
I've been on the Goc bandwagon longer than ANY Shark fan, and especially Barons fan. Three years ago just around today I was calling for San Jose to draft Goc in the first round if Krajicek was gone. Well, Krajicek wasn't gone, but they took Goc and more than solved why I called for Krajicek with Ehrhoff. So I'm suddenly going to turn on someone I wanted before he was ever a Shark? Plus, I've been accused, by you no less, of having a German bias. You're full of it, I never said Goc would play poorly.
Actually, at the time of the 01 draft I was callin for the Sharks to draft Marcel Goc. Very happy boy when they actually did.

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06-08-2004, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresIn05
Because that's the point of a message board.

That's great. If he was such a player to watch, watching him would be an accurate way to back that up, now wouldn't it?

I'm arguing his knowledge because I see holes in it. Just because Kevin Wey has his personal knowledge of Doug Murray doesn't mean I can't rebut it...or maybe I can't because he's a Sharks writer and we're all inferior cause people from Cleveland don't know anything about hockey.
Its nice that you get to see him 40 games a year and I (we) appreciate all you, Serena, and all the other Clevo kids for reportin the goins on with the Barons games but its also very helpful when you have seen a player for a number of years and noticed the areas in which he has improved or still lacks. What Kevin lacks in his ability to follow Murray as closely as you can in Cleveland he makes up for the years he has been monitoring his progress. Kevin's views on Murray's NHL potential is every much as relevant as yours are.

I don't see why you have to bring in the fact that Kevin writes for the site in the discussion.

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06-08-2004, 06:16 PM
  #14
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patty, maybe it's time to put on the admin gloves. i'm all for good hockey discussion and debate, but this is starting to get kinda personal.

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06-08-2004, 06:23 PM
  #15
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It's not getting THAT personal. Adam and I have a legitimate debate. I don't think he's crossed any dangerous line nor have I. It's not like Adam is accusing me of being an Al Qaeda operative or vice versa. I don't like it when threads that involve heated debates are automatically locked. I think it delays a true agreement or resolution between those debating.

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06-08-2004, 06:30 PM
  #16
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Insults with power skating school? I never belittled your playing hockey. I mentioned power skating only because it strengthened my arguments about Goc and Murray's skating.

No, you don't SEE me working on my hockey six to seven days a week and weightlifting five days a week so I can play minor pro hockey after college. But it's what I'm doing. I may fail, but nobody will be able to say I didn't give it 100%. I'm willing to bet I've worked harder on my hockey in the past few years than Doug Murray, and that's no slight to Doug Murray either. I skate EVERY day I can to make up for the fact I got a late start in hockey. My first organized hockey was Junior B at age 19 for the Minnesota Ice Hawks, god bless them. Don't question my hockey effort.

Comparison: I don't see how you can even make a judgment without comparing Barons to other NHL players. If you don't you have no concrete point of reference. That's what I mean by the "I Said So Postulate." I make the comparisons because that's the only concrete way to gauge what a player will become. Otherwise, to me, your grabbing at mythical upsides from thin air. So yes, I rely HEAVILY on comparison and I will not apologize for it.


Last edited by Kevin Wey: 06-08-2004 at 06:37 PM.
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06-08-2004, 07:28 PM
  #17
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Gee Serena, see what you started?


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06-08-2004, 08:17 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
It's not getting THAT personal. Adam and I have a legitimate debate. I don't think he's crossed any dangerous line nor have I. It's not like Adam is accusing me of being an Al Qaeda operative or vice versa. I don't like it when threads that involve heated debates are automatically locked. I think it delays a true agreement or resolution between those debating.

I agree...lets get it on!!

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06-08-2004, 09:32 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Wild GM
Gee Serena, see what you started?

I may never post about Doug Murray again..... :lol By the way, boys, you ALL know what I think of Douggy as I've posted it here before. I'll let you two drop the gloves on it for now.

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06-08-2004, 10:02 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Insults with power skating school? I never belittled your playing hockey. I mentioned power skating only because it strengthened my arguments about Goc and Murray's skating.
It should have been stated that way. I didn't appreciate the shot you took at Murray, plain and simple. It could have been phrased better as opposed to how ignorant it sounded to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
No, you don't SEE me working on my hockey six to seven days a week and weightlifting five days a week so I can play minor pro hockey after college. But it's what I'm doing. I may fail, but nobody will be able to say I didn't give it 100%. I'm willing to bet I've worked harder on my hockey in the past few years than Doug Murray, and that's no slight to Doug Murray either. I skate EVERY day I can to make up for the fact I got a late start in hockey. My first organized hockey was Junior B at age 19 for the Minnesota Ice Hawks, god bless them. Don't question my hockey effort.
I'm betting I got a later start than you at 14, my freshman year of high school. I commend you for working so hard. If I really had the drive, I would do exactly what you do. But I really don't, because it would be nothing more than a pipe dream to play competitively after high school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
Comparison: I don't see how you can even make a judgment without comparing Barons to other NHL players. If you don't you have no concrete point of reference. That's what I mean by the "I Said So Postulate." I make the comparisons because that's the only concrete way to gauge what a player will become. Otherwise, to me, your grabbing at mythical upsides from thin air. So yes, I rely HEAVILY on comparison and I will not apologize for it.
Because you cannot do that with accuracy. You cannot compare a 24 year old to a seasoned veteran. You cannot compare AHL talent to NHL talent. There's a better concrete way to gauge a player and that's by taking his stats and projecting them. I'm not a big stat guy, and I have more respect for the things that don't show up on the scoresheet, i.e, the breaking up of a 2 on 1, or the crushing hit that snuffs out an odd man rush. That's why I don't compare players. Everyone brings something unique to the table. How you said it was common, it's not. It may seem common, but everyone goes about it a different way. Much like how you and I interpret each other's comments. I don't think the hatchet will ever be buried between us because neither of us will back down from our thoughts and opinions, but I would never have had a problem had you not stated the Murray power skating comment like you did. If it's open for misinterpretation, that's the fault of the person who said it.

And HoT: About Kevin writing. There's obviously going to be bias then because he is a writer. That's a glaring fact. Whether I'm right or wrong, it will always be irrelevant because I don't write for HF and I haven't been around this site for a long time.

If you haven't noticed, I take a lot of pride in my hockey sense and what I know about the game. I don't take the time to know every player, but I know the game itself. I know what players I'm going to like and for what reason. I like the way Doug Murray plays the game, so I back him. I hate the way Zalesak plays the game, I don't back him. My commentary here is merely to state what I think, as is the point of a message board. If it ruffles some feathers, good. There's nothing more that I love than a good debate about something. I don't focus on going about it the right way, I focus on going about it my way. Kevin's degraded me in the past, and I've degraded him. It's apparent that our own hockey knowledge is very important to us and that's why I applaud Kevin for saying that this thread should not be locked.

For saying that Kevin followed Murray through his Cornell days, that's superb. I'm following him now and I would know more about the player that he is now, as opposed to then, which is all that matters. That's why I get so pissed off about Kevin's judgements on a player. It's uncanny how some players can improve so much in year with different talent, better training programs, and more drive because they are so close. You can compare the Doug Murray of October to the Doug Murray of March but it's not accurate. If that isn't accurate, his 2002-2003 collegiate season is a far cry from an accurate comparison of his 2003-2004 Barons season. That's my main point in all of this.

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06-08-2004, 10:19 PM
  #21
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Me and Sabres talk alot, and he really seems to look past the hype, or the stats ect. and really knows how to find the top player.

He was telling me all season long Goc over Boyes Goc over Boyes, Can't argue that he was right. Not saying I disagreed with him, but give him credit, he said Brad is a great talent, but Goc is the best center in Cleveland.

I saw the Barons twice, and Kevin kind of got a bad taste of the team in Chicago, so I understand...Murray was invisible. Both Kevin and Adam bring up good points, I'm kind of split in the middle...I think Murray could be a better player then Davison, possibly this year, and it's no small feat if Murray finds his way on to a 5th or 6th defensman role with this team.

I saw him play vs MIlwaukee....A very very fast, skilled team, and he was dominating, and his skating wasn't an issue. He was a force!

I think you two should just agree to disagree, no matter what you say won't sway the other opinion, you know that what you say goes threw the others ear and out the other lol.

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06-08-2004, 10:29 PM
  #22
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Kevin has him as the #5 d propect on the team. I can't see where that is an insult, too low or inaccurate in any way.

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06-08-2004, 11:15 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-SHARKIE
Me and Sabres talk alot, and he really seems to look past the hype, or the stats ect. and really knows how to find the top player.

He was telling me all season long Goc over Boyes Goc over Boyes, Can't argue that he was right. Not saying I disagreed with him, but give him credit, he said Brad is a great talent, but Goc is the best center in Cleveland.

I saw the Barons twice, and Kevin kind of got a bad taste of the team in Chicago, so I understand...Murray was invisible. Both Kevin and Adam bring up good points, I'm kind of split in the middle...I think Murray could be a better player then Davison, possibly this year, and it's no small feat if Murray finds his way on to a 5th or 6th defensman role with this team.

I saw him play vs MIlwaukee....A very very fast, skilled team, and he was dominating, and his skating wasn't an issue. He was a force!

I think you two should just agree to disagree, no matter what you say won't sway the other opinion, you know that what you say goes threw the others ear and out the other lol.
Rock on bud! How's the offseason going btw?

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06-09-2004, 12:07 PM
  #24
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Comparisons: Ever notice how scouts say, "So and so reminds of me [Current NHLer, or sometimes a well-known past NHLer].

And this is for pretty much anybody who is draft eligible or even younger playing in juniors.

Doug Murray is 24. Vincent Lecavalier is 24. Jay Bouwmeester is much younger than Murray. I'm not comparing a 14-year-old kid I saw play for Shattuck to an NHL, I'm comparing an AHL hockey player who is older than many of the NHL's top scoring forwards right now, not to mention there are all sorts of defensemen 24 and younger in the NHL.

It is more than fair to compare a 24-year-old to established NHL defensemen. Why? Because he's going to have to be as good, if not superior to them, to make the NHL. He will have to outperform other defensemen, whom the coaches will compare to determine their roster.

NHL amateur scouts compare youngsters to NHLers, I feel more than justified in being able to compare an overraged prospect out of college to current NHLers when the NHL had a few 18-year-olds this year. Once your name shows up on CSS, or now ISS, you better expect to be compared to NHL players. And ISS scouts kids in bantams!!!

How is power skating an insult? Our Hockey Director here in Cedar Rapids, Steve Yurichuk, works with some NHL players in the summer to help them improve their skating. Lots of high end players do it to give themselves an edge. I recommended it for Murray to improve his lateral mobility, agility, and acceleration. It's not like I'm saying Murray's skating should place him in the Cedar Rapids Adult B League or something. To me, if I read that Murray was going to power skating, I would be greatly encouraged that Murray took his hockey most seriously. I just don't have the negative connotation you do with power skating, because I know it's not just for beginning skaters. You come watch how Yurichuk skates, and you'll see what power skating can do and how almost any player can benefit from it.


Last edited by Kevin Wey: 06-09-2004 at 12:18 PM.
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06-09-2004, 01:44 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
How is power skating an insult? Our Hockey Director here in Cedar Rapids, Steve Yurichuk, works with some NHL players in the summer to help them improve their skating. Lots of high end players do it to give themselves an edge. I recommended it for Murray to improve his lateral mobility, agility, and acceleration. It's not like I'm saying Murray's skating should place him in the Cedar Rapids Adult B League or something. To me, if I read that Murray was going to power skating, I would be greatly encouraged that Murray took his hockey most seriously. I just don't have the negative connotation you do with power skating, because I know it's not just for beginning skaters. You come watch how Yurichuk skates, and you'll see what power skating can do and how almost any player can benefit from it.
Once again, you miss the concrete point. It's the way you said it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
I'd be more encouraged if I were reading he was going to power skating school.
Do you not realize how ignorant it sounds? Well, apparently not since you are still missing the point. He made massive strides in improvement and you are taking it for granted. It's not your career, there's no point in making that statement. That's the issue here, Kevin. I'm not going to disagree with you that power skating school could benefit Murray. But I'm not going to be an ass about it and state it like that. You'd be encouraged enough had you seen him wire to wire this season. Once again, my point and your point won't agree because you're not informed enough to see compare how Murray looked in October to how he looked in March.

I do notice scouts doing that, and I still don't agree with it. You can't compare young kids to proven defensemen because anything that can happen. A player can decrease in ability due to an injury, or personal issues, or whatnot. I just don't understand how you can compare players. There's far too many possibilities.

And you're comparing Murray to talent that is completely unbelievable. Doug Murray is not Jay Bouwmeester, he never was, and never will be. I never said Doug Murray is going to become a superstar. Keith Carney is a #1 or #2 defenseman, and you never hear his name mentioned with the likes of Chris Pronger. Jaroslav Modry started playing full time at the NHL level at 25. He was a 9th round pick. He's also a #2 for the Kings. You don't hear his name mentioned very often. I'd venture to say Dan McGillis is a #2 or #3 for Boston. He didn't get his big break till 24 with Edmonton. 10th round selection. I'm just merely stating that it can be done and Murray could be the one to do it.

In talking to Murray, I know what kind of drive and desire Murray has. When I go to team functions, like the Awards Banquet, or post-game skates, I don't act as though I'm a fan. I act as though I'm actually interviewing the player to a certain extent. I know the drive Murray has and I know how far he's willing to go to achieve it. Until you know that yourself, don't make your little comments.

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