HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Top 50 Dirtiest Players?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-04-2010, 02:13 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Watch the Willis hit again. By the rules? Sure. Headshot? Yes. Absolutely unnecessary, purely malicious hit? Hell yes. Intentionally headshoting a player with a few seconds left in a won game? That's just rubbish. A within-the-rules rubbish.
Out of all the Stevens hits, the Willis hit was the only one that made me a little uneasy at the time.

I wouldn't say it was "absolutely unnecessary," though. The series wasn't over, and it was intended on sending a message going into the next game. A big part of what made Stevens effective was that the other team's forwards were afraid to go into his side of the ice.

Actually, you know what? I've watched it a few times now, and there was no way that was headshotting. I don't ever see a part of Stevens body making contact with Willis's head. Unlike most of the hits in the video, it was totally from the blindside (so bad under the new anti-headshot rule), but he just didn't make contact with the head at all. The concussion must have happened with Willis's head bounced off the ice.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-04-2010 at 02:19 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 02:13 PM
  #52
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Earlier, you said he often hit them in the chin with his shoulder. I agree with this. But how are they getting hit in the chin with a shoulder if he isn't in front of them?

The classic Stevens hit is to come really fast out of nowhere from the side when they guy is distracted. The timing aspect is that Stevens ends up right in front of where the player is going to be and then boom. But by the time contact is made, Stevens is almost always in front of the player, which is why I say that his hits would still likely be legal under the new headshot rules.

And seriously, if a player is looking down at the puck and you come over and time a hit so you get him from the front.... how is it possible to hit him without your shoulder making contact with the head?



Well, apparently he was practically in tears when he heard how injured Lindros was. Obviously he played a rough game, but my issue was with the "intent to injure" card for someone who hit about as cleanly as could be in open ice.

Like someone else said, if Stevens was a dirty player, then so was Denis Potvin (and so was Larry Robinson).


Neither?
My point was that just because you think Stevens hits were dirty it doesnt mean you dont like open hits. Do this example sound logical, "You think Stevens hits were dirty, therefore you don't like open hits". It's like saying "You dont like Detroit Red Wings, therefore you dont like hockey.

Stevens aimed for heads, his intent was to injure. He was shook by the Lindros hit because Lindros made have played his last game because of it not becuase he had injured someone.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 02:18 PM
  #53
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
My point was that just because you think Stevens hits were dirty it doesnt mean you dont like open hits. Do this example sound logical, "You think Stevens hits were dirty, therefore you don't like open hits". It's like saying "You dont like Detroit Red Wings, therefore you dont like hockey.\

Stevens aimed for heads, his intent was to injure. He was shook by the Lindros hit because Lindros made have played his last game because of it not becuase he had injured someone.
The only way to remove Scott Stevens type hits from the game is to remove open ice hits, period. If a player does everything he can to keep his elbow tucked in, but the opponent is leaning over, how on earth is he supposed to land a hit without making contact with the head?

I do think mandating softer shoulder pads would go a long way towards reducing such injuries, though every time I watch the infamous Shane Willis hit, I can't help but notice that Scott Stevens never makes contact with his head at all! His forearm is driven into Willis's chest, which ends with Willis flying through the air and his head bouncing off the ice.

Edit: I take it you agree with Kronwall's 5 minute major in the playoffs two years ago? That was at least as bad as any of Stevens' hits - Kronwall's feet actually came off the ice a little bit. (For the record, I think it was a horrible call).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-04-2010 at 02:28 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 02:27 PM
  #54
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The only way to remove Scott Stevens type hits from the game is to remove open ice hits, period. If a player does everything he can to keep his elbow tucked in, but the opponent is leaning over, how on earth is he supposed to land a hit without making contact with the head?

I do think mandating softer shoulder pads would go a long way towards reducing such injuries, though every time I watch the infamous Shane Willis hit, I can't help but notice that Scott Stevens never makes contact with his head at all! His forearm is driven into Willis's chest, which ends with Willis flying through the air and his head bouncing off the ice.
The Stevens on Willis hit was towards the head (although I dont know if it connected). You clearly see Steven raising his body just before hitting and therefore aiming for the head. Numerous players do this this and it doesnt make Stevens anymore dirty than those but it is a intent to injure-move. Take the Cambpell on Umberger hit. Good open ice hit straight for the chest area.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 02:29 PM
  #55
OilCanada92
Registered User
 
OilCanada92's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 596
vCash: 500
Cheilos
Pronger
B.Clarke
C.Lemieux
Avery
Cooke
Boogaard
Tikkanen
O.Nolan
Hextall

Only ones I can remember that pissed me off during a game. Not Esa though... Everyone knows he was a crazy finn though.

OilCanada92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 03:24 PM
  #56
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
The Stevens on Willis hit was towards the head (although I dont know if it connected). You clearly see Steven raising his body just before hitting and therefore aiming for the head. Numerous players do this this and it doesnt make Stevens anymore dirty than those but it is a intent to injure-move. Take the Cambpell on Umberger hit. Good open ice hit straight for the chest area.
The fact still remains that all of the concussions that resulted from Stevens hits were due to their heads bouncing off the ice after.
Not from him making contact with their heads.
Willis, Lindros and Kariya were all ice caused.
Look at the Francis hit, Stevens clocked him but he never banged off the ice. He was woozy for sure but no concussion.
Further more, in comparison to say Messier, Stevens doesn't even rate on the dirty scale.
What Messier did to Natress and Linden just to name a few is ridiculous in contrast.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 03:42 PM
  #57
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,381
vCash: 500
Why do people call Avery dirty? Because he's an agitating POS?

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 03:44 PM
  #58
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,381
vCash: 500
This list needs more Steve Downie. I'll never forget what he did to Jason Blake.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 06:09 PM
  #59
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 10,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
C'mon dude, he was no head hunter, he just played hard, took no quarter and hit like a truck.
No different than Denis Potvin before him.
Hard nosed but not dirty.
Trying to put him in the same class as Ulf or Marchment is ridiculous.
All his big hits are to the head. What do you call that?

Dennis Bonvie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 06:39 PM
  #60
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 10,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Out of all the Stevens hits, the Willis hit was the only one that made me a little uneasy at the time.

I wouldn't say it was "absolutely unnecessary," though. The series wasn't over, and it was intended on sending a message going into the next game. A big part of what made Stevens effective was that the other team's forwards were afraid to go into his side of the ice.

Actually, you know what? I've watched it a few times now, and there was no way that was headshotting. I don't ever see a part of Stevens body making contact with Willis's head. Unlike most of the hits in the video, it was totally from the blindside (so bad under the new anti-headshot rule), but he just didn't make contact with the head at all. The concussion must have happened with Willis's head bounced off the ice.
Yeah, that's not dirty.

Seems like most people here only know Steven's from the Devil's days. He was much dirtier when he was with the Caps. The idea that he didn't intend to hurt anyone is laughable.

Dennis Bonvie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 07:17 PM
  #61
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,519
vCash: 500
Funny this thread comes up right when Darcy Tucker retires. Good riddance to Sideshow Bob.

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 08:26 PM
  #62
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 17,234
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
This list needs more Steve Downie. I'll never forget what he did to Jason Blake.
3 incidents for Downie don't constitute being in the top 50 dirtiest players of all time. He's really cleaned up his act and isn't the nutcase that he was.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 08:55 PM
  #63
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,581
vCash: 500
Dale Hunter,Claude Lemieux,Alf Smith & Cully Wilson come to mind

JFA87-66-99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 10:16 PM
  #64
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The only way to remove Scott Stevens type hits from the game is to remove open ice hits, period. If a player does everything he can to keep his elbow tucked in, but the opponent is leaning over, how on earth is he supposed to land a hit without making contact with the head?
How about instead of beaning him in the noggin you just hit shoulder to shoulder?

Or maybe hit him without coming from halfway across the rink and trying to kill him?

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 10:20 PM
  #65
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
3 incidents for Downie don't constitute being in the top 50 dirtiest players of all time. He's really cleaned up his act and isn't the nutcase that he was.
Actually, consider the nature of two of them, and the fact that not even 50 players have been named in this thread yet, I'd say he has a decent shot.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 10:31 PM
  #66
insomniac
High on Hockey
 
insomniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,032
vCash: 456
Corey Perry belongs here.

insomniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2010, 10:50 PM
  #67
SMoneyMonkey
Registered User
 
SMoneyMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LA/MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,506
vCash: 500
I really don't know how you can argue that Stevens didn't have intent to injure during a large portion of his hits. I wouldn't be surprised if he was top 10 in concussions caused.

His hits were clean, his intent wasn't. That being said, it's not like he was a cheapshot artist. A headhunter, sure, but not a cheapshot artist. I don't know if I'd put him top 50 either way.

SMoneyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 03:33 AM
  #68
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
How about instead of beaning him in the noggin you just hit shoulder to shoulder?

Or maybe hit him without coming from halfway across the rink and trying to kill him?

Here's the thing though...for every Stevens hit that caused a major injury or made some kind of top 10 list, he had 50 other highlight reel, bone crunching hits that didn't cause injuries but were still highlight of the night material.
The guy didn't pick his spots, he hit anyone and everyone, every minute he played.
People can make an argument all they want that maybe a handful of his hits were borderline but to flat out call him dirty compared to blatant cheap shot artists like Messier, Marchment or Clarke is ridiculous imo.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 06:53 AM
  #69
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
People can make an argument all they want that maybe a handful of his hits were borderline but to flat out call him dirty compared to blatant cheap shot artists like Messier, Marchment or Clarke is ridiculous imo.
I agree that those guys were all worse and I loathe Claude Lemieux and Ulf Samuelsson for example; I just have a problem with the sportsmanship of Stevens hitting with the intent to injure. Which should be obvious to anyone seeing those "handful" of hits.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 07:31 AM
  #70
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
I would say that Matt Cooke is climbing the ranking extremely fast.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 09:14 AM
  #71
Thordic
StraightOuttaConklin
 
Thordic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kearny, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 2,159
vCash: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I just have a problem with the sportsmanship of Stevens hitting with the intent to injure.
I think this is the only case you can make against Stevens. His hits were clean, but his intent wasn't. He wasn't hitting as a method of seperating a player from the puck. He hit to hurt.

If you leave his intent out, then you don't have much of a case against him.

Thordic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 09:48 AM
  #72
Hasbro
Can He Skate?!
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 35,997
vCash: 500
Rich Pilon

Never made the NHL, but Bill Goldethorpe.

Hasbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 12:06 PM
  #73
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
How about instead of beaning him in the noggin you just hit shoulder to shoulder?
If a player is leaning over, how can you hit his shoulder if you are in front of him? It's not possible.

Quote:
Or maybe hit him without coming from halfway across the rink and trying to kill him?
Okay, so you are against open ice hits that are hard?

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 12:10 PM
  #74
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Here's the thing though...for every Stevens hit that caused a major injury or made some kind of top 10 list, he had 50 other highlight reel, bone crunching hits that didn't cause injuries but were still highlight of the night material.
Very true.

Quote:
The guy didn't pick his spots, he hit anyone and everyone, every minute he played.
.
True to an extent, but he also definitely upped the hitting in the playoffs. Notice that virtually every one of Stevens' Top 10 hits was during the playoffs. That's the thing - Stevens didn't go out of his way to hurt people in the regular season. He had his share of hits, but nothing like the ones was remember most. And I don't recall a single questionable incident involving Stevens in the preseason, like I can think of for quite a few other players in recent years. But yes, in the playoffs, he threw himself around like a missile.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 12:11 PM
  #75
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordic View Post
I think this is the only case you can make against Stevens. His hits were clean, but his intent wasn't. He wasn't hitting as a method of seperating a player from the puck. He hit to hurt.

If you leave his intent out, then you don't have much of a case against him.
He definitely hit to intimidate, and it is part of what made him so effective. Witnessing Mats Sundin and the rest of Toronto completely avoid Stevens' half of the ice was beautiful to watch.

Like I said, if you think "intent to hurt players within the rules" makes Stevens dirty, fine. But then you also need to include guys like Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin on the list.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:20 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.