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Old
10-05-2010, 01:18 PM
  #76
Southern Hockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Your logic is terrible. Kulikov and McCabe's preseason means little in the scheme of things. Kulikov had an outstanding year as an 18 year old and McCabe has a whole career. I can't believe you're even saying that.

Trade him for what? A mid round pick that is pretty much useless. Teaching accountability? Do you understand anything? This is a message to the entire franchise, not Grabner who they obviously are not very high on.
Well I sure am glad you aren't the GM. I'm not even going to try to reason with your logic anymore. You clearly have no concept of asset management, or what "accountability" even means.

It boggles my mind how some people on these boards will always bash a good move, and always defend to the death a stupid move. Just admit it was a mistake, and we lost the 48th ranked prospect for squat diddly.

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10-05-2010, 01:19 PM
  #77
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it's incredible how detrimental 1 player can be to a franchise, 1 player can influence all the others...thanks to olesz it creates a **** storm around the organization

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10-05-2010, 01:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Well I sure am glad you aren't the GM. I'm not even going to try to reason with your logic anymore. You clearly have no concept of asset management, or what "accountability" even means.

It boggles my mind how some people on these boards will always bash a good move, and always defend to the death a stupid move. Just admit it was a mistake, and we lost the 48th ranked prospect for squat diddly.
you've been here since...June. What good moves are you talking about? And what bad ones?

Again, you used McCabe and Kulikov in your argument, then you want to talk about asset management? mmk!

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10-05-2010, 01:35 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
It's a shame GR can't write his true feelings about this move.

When GR found out Grabner would be put on waivers if he didn't make the team, he put "welcome to Florida, Grabner" on his live chat.

I bet even the team writers are laughing at the team, right now.

People keep talking about "earning a roster spot;" the hell with that. All offseason long we've been talking about REBUILDING. You REBUILD with young players that have potential. I don't care how they got Grabner a roster spot; anything but this. Certain players that have no future on this team could have been traded to make room for him.

We are more than likely not making the playoffs this year. You do not just put players like Grabner on waivers and let some other team get him for nothing when you're REBUILDING.

I bet Grabner does well for the Islanders. The Islanders aren't BS'ing their fans pretending there's a legit shot at a playoff berth. Grabner will probably be given a top 6 spot, and produce, while we spend another year watching average veteran forwards try to get us an 8th seed.
um, who the hell cares what GR thinks? he's been covering the sport for what, 3-4 years? i'm happy for the access he provides but as far as the value of his, gorten's or the opinion of anyone else down there in the media on this type of stuff, it's pretty close to nil in my book. (sorry GR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Well I sure am glad you aren't the GM. I'm not even going to try to reason with your logic anymore. You clearly have no concept of asset management, or what "accountability" even means.

It boggles my mind how some people on these boards will always bash a good move, and always defend to the death a stupid move. Just admit it was a mistake, and we lost the 48th ranked prospect for squat diddly.
perhaps he'll be the 148th ranked prospect next year and the following, he'll be a career AHLer. so???

it's difficult to say right now whether this was a good or a bad move. we will have to see if/how grabner develops. i, for one, have already said i thought he brought nothing this preseason and this was supposed to be his chance to compete for a gig in the NHL. so i guess i'd agree with tallon.

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10-05-2010, 01:35 PM
  #80
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Big mistake by Tallon how did a very good job IMO at the draft and during the off season.

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10-05-2010, 01:35 PM
  #81
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Part of my point is that "earning" a spot on the team doesn't matter when finances are involved, which is hypocritical. For years our prospects have been thrown into the fire for the simple reason that the organization is too cheap to fill out a roster with NHL players. So guys like Weiss, Olesz, etc., never went back to the minors or Rochester due to finances, not earning a role. It took years for Weiss to grow into his current role and Olesz is still trying to figure it out. Those guys, and even Horton or even Bouwmeester for that matter, could have waited another year. Olesz should have gone to Rochester last year to send a message about his play, but it wasn't done due to finance.

So when Tallon talks about earning a role on this team, I take it with a grain of salt given this organization's history of cheapness & keeping guys around who didn't "earn" it.

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10-05-2010, 01:39 PM
  #82
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guys please.. im very disappointed in loosing a promising player for nothing like we just did. i would much rather have seen him traded for atleast some type of asset.
BUT, the guy has never been a top6 forward. he played 20 games last year, he scored goals in 3 games out of that..
this whole idea of him being a sure thing top 6er this year has only been made up by us florida fans, me included.
think about it, the whole summer when we were making up our lines in our head most of us had grabner on the 3th or 2nd line. he has never had that job full time before in the nhl.

im not gonna start bashing tallon because of this, because this is what ive been wanting in this organization for very long, a gm that makes wont take crappy performances like grabner showed us.

yes there are players id rather see off the team than grabner, but i would hate to have grabner on the roster with a spot that maybe mcardle or duco has earned more

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10-05-2010, 01:43 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by FlaPanthers7 View Post
Part of my point is that "earning" a spot on the team doesn't matter when finances are involved, which is hypocritical. For years our prospects have been thrown into the fire for the simple reason that the organization is too cheap to fill out a roster with NHL players. So guys like Weiss, Olesz, etc., never went back to the minors or Rochester due to finances, not earning a role. It took years for Weiss to grow into his current role and Olesz is still trying to figure it out. Those guys, and even Horton or even Bouwmeester for that matter, could have waited another year. Olesz should have gone to Rochester last year to send a message about his play, but it wasn't done due to finance.

So when Tallon talks about earning a role on this team, I take it with a grain of salt given this organization's history of cheapness & keeping guys around who didn't "earn" it.
Tallon's first season here, either we're going to trust him going forward, or we're going to just say that this is the Panthers, and no one will fix this. All the above is not Tallon's fault, but make it his, guess that works.

Again, Olesz COULDN'T go to Rochester last season, he would've cleared, played there, and another team would have picked him up for half his salary. Wasn't going to happen. Weiss, Bouw, Nate, Olesz, etc. were all under Cohen's watch, we all know that history, Tallon is here.

You guys are comparing apples and oranges with this whole, "well Olesz should be waived" business. Grabner didn't make the team, he didn't play well, and everyone barking about how he should have literally rode the pine for a good chunk of the season (how does that benefit him, or the team?), especially if he still didn't break out, would be griping that he has to actually be there.

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10-05-2010, 01:44 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
Just because Grabner didn't play well in preseason doesn't mean he lacks character... having followed him since his draft, IMO it's more that he lacks confidence then character.

Grabner was a noted gym-rat... he worked hard off the ice to improve his weaknesses - notably playing a perimeter game and not being physical enough. He was a hard working player who did work hard both on and off the ice.

But when the season started, he usually was very quiet in preseason and only after starting strong in the AHL did he get his confidence back and play at a higher level.

I think he needs to be handled properly to be developed well. You can't just do what most teams do with their prospects - let them fend for themselves and not actually help the players with their development. This is a mistake that most franchise still operate as - there is just not enough hands-on development from the organization with the player. When you look at the top organizations in the league, they all have an active role in all their prospects' development, but for some reason this is just not how most organizations still operate.

Grabner needs to be coddled in a way... he works hard, but his confidence is fragile. When he came up and played with the Canucks last year, he gained a lot of confidence playing next to Kesler and his play reflected it. Being traded to a non-hockey market just when he thought he was on the verge of making it, hurt his confidence again.

I think he'll do better in New York... playing on a rebuilding team that will give him time to develop and have some patience with him - you simply have to have patience with this player to develop him properly. I still think he'll develop into a decent 2nd line winger.



Bernier has hands? This is the one thing he was most criticized about in Vancouver... he may have the work ethic to get 30 goals, but he needs talent beside him to do it because he has hands of stone. He whiffed on so many quality chances playing next to top offensive players, that it become quite obvious that his hands are the worst part of his game.

I like Bernier because he works hard... he will go into dirty areas, throw his body around, and play a gritty game. But he is a prototypical 3rd liner because his hands and overall hockey sense are just not there. I do think he can be a consistent 20-goal guy in this league from a 3rd line, getting PP time as well. But I don't see him improving beyond that given his weaknesses. Still a crash and bang 20-goal guy who can play on the PP and works hard every shift, is a valuable player overall. Just don't expect 30 goals, or you'll be disappointed.
Very good points. I remember talking with a prospect of Minnesota's a couple years ago who was on callup and did well. He had a drinking problem and had no nutrition or fitness guidance and the Wild's strategy was to give him a card to call if he got another DWI. The guy's career tanked after that short promising callup. Naegle was a dirtbag that took 100's of millions of dollars in subsidies and retired to Naples. A lot of these owners just see the franchises as a used car to clean up and sell when the conditions are right to make a killing. Long term asset management, building an organization that wins, most don't even care and it shows.

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10-05-2010, 01:44 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by whoisournextbure View Post
guys please.. im very disappointed in loosing a promising player for nothing like we just did. i would much rather have seen him traded for atleast some type of asset.
BUT, the guy has never been a top6 forward. he played 20 games last year, he scored goals in 3 games out of that..
this whole idea of him being a sure thing top 6er this year has only been made up by us florida fans, me included.
think about it, the whole summer when we were making up our lines in our head most of us had grabner on the 3th or 2nd line. he has never had that job full time before in the nhl.

im not gonna start bashing tallon because of this, because this is what ive been wanting in this organization for very long, a gm that makes wont take crappy performances like grabner showed us.

yes there are players id rather see off the team than grabner, but i would hate to have grabner on the roster with a spot that maybe mcardle or duco has earned more
Good post.

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10-05-2010, 01:44 PM
  #86
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I knew this was going to happen, but just was waiting to see what team. Maybe we are all jumping the gun here and how horrible of a decision it was to waive him. Maybe we're not. Time will tell though if this trade will affect the team overall in the near future. he'll get a good chance playing on the Islanders to show if he'll become something in this league or just become another Novoseltsev. Still, I can't help at this moment to be looking this guy here --->

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10-05-2010, 01:50 PM
  #87
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First - surprising to me that this came to pass, but it really shouldn't be. At the time of the Ballard trade, I thought it was pretty heavily tilted in the Panthers favor. That was because VAN knew a hell of a lot more about Grabner than the rest of us (or even Tallon). The Canucks had a lot more intelligence into MG's potential than anyone, but that still doesn't mean that they are necessarily right in their projection.

However - the history of the draft shows us that there are a TON of skilled guys who never make the NHL for one reason or another. In the cases that I remember - guys who have the "potential" tag showed something (speed, shot, etc), but eventually they just faded away because of underlying issues with their game.

I think it says a lot that 5 years after being drafted Grabner couldn't force his way onto a roster. I think it's VERY likely that Grabner is one of those first round picks who will "fade away" onto the list of guys who just aren't NHL'ers.

Maybe I'm wrong (along with Gillis & Tallon), and MG will turn into a legit NHL'er. I just think that's pretty unlikely at this point.

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10-05-2010, 01:50 PM
  #88
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New management, same old disappointments...

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10-05-2010, 01:52 PM
  #89
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[QUOTE=NFITO;28117013]Just because Grabner didn't play well in preseason doesn't mean he lacks character... having followed him since his draft, IMO it's more that he lacks confidence then character.

Grabner was a noted gym-rat... he worked hard off the ice to improve his weaknesses - notably playing a perimeter game and not being physical enough. He was a hard working player who did work hard both on and off the ice.

But when the season started, he usually was very quiet in preseason and only after starting strong in the AHL did he get his confidence back and play at a higher level.

I think he needs to be handled properly to be developed well. You can't just do what most teams do with their prospects - let them fend for themselves and not actually help the players with their development. This is a mistake that most franchise still operate as - there is just not enough hands-on development from the organization with the player. When you look at the top organizations in the league, they all have an active role in all their prospects' development, but for some reason this is just not how most organizations still operate.

Grabner needs to be coddled in a way... he works hard, but his confidence is fragile. When he came up and played with the Canucks last year, he gained a lot of confidence playing next to Kesler and his play reflected it. Being traded to a non-hockey market just when he thought he was on the verge of making it, hurt his confidence again."

Id rather not have him , if he needs to be coddled, shouldnt have to tip toe around his feelings and make sure hes ready to go and confident. Grabner sounds like the type of player that, needs the best of circumstances around him for his talent to come out but in this league , you cant always have someone holding your hand making sure your confidence is up . I want a player with mental toughness. We dont have time for fragile players. And hes 23 years old , hes young but hes not right outta the draft , so he should have learned mental toughness by now. grabner has some nice tools , but he just hasnt figured out how to put it all together enough , for him to be a regular nhler . Who knows if he ever will

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10-05-2010, 01:54 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
you've been here since...June. What good moves are you talking about? And what bad ones?

Again, you used McCabe and Kulikov in your argument, then you want to talk about asset management? mmk!
I've had season tickets since '94, and been reading these boards since 06'.

I used those players because the notion was clearly absurd that they would ever be waived, and yet they still had poor preseason performances. Thus showing the futility of using preseason as the end-all be-all argument which has become quite rampant lately.

But go ahead and cling to that, since you so desperately need to convince yourself that the new GM is the savior and can do no wrong.

Cognitive dissonance is on full display on these boards.

You should also work on your comprehension of the use of rhetoric, I've noticed that it is a skill most members here have not learned.


Last edited by Southern Hockey: 10-05-2010 at 02:04 PM.
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10-05-2010, 01:57 PM
  #91
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Reino is a much better player than Grabner. Reino is a solid 3rd line center with a relatively solid career who has been pushed down the depth chart because people have earned their spots. Matthias and Santo deserve their spots.
Is Reino going to be a better player than Grabner 10 years from now? 5? 3?
We aren't icing a team right now to go try and make the playoffs, I think that has been made clear.
Did he really do that much more than Grabner during the preseason? Considering his contract, is he really that much better than Grabner for this organization at this point in time?
Obviously not if we are rebuilding.

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10-05-2010, 02:00 PM
  #92
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10-05-2010, 02:04 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Tallon's first season here, either we're going to trust him going forward, or we're going to just say that this is the Panthers, and no one will fix this. All the above is not Tallon's fault, but make it his, guess that works.

Again, Olesz COULDN'T go to Rochester last season, he would've cleared, played there, and another team would have picked him up for half his salary. Wasn't going to happen. Weiss, Bouw, Nate, Olesz, etc. were all under Cohen's watch, we all know that history, Tallon is here.

You guys are comparing apples and oranges with this whole, "well Olesz should be waived" business. Grabner didn't make the team, he didn't play well, and everyone barking about how he should have literally rode the pine for a good chunk of the season (how does that benefit him, or the team?), especially if he still didn't break out, would be griping that he has to actually be there.
It's not apples to oranges, Olesz & Weiss should have started in the minors and weren't ready in their early years. It's the shoe-string budget this team is run on year after year where we, the fans, are sold the same bill of goods no matter who is the GM.

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10-05-2010, 02:26 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Did he (Reinprecht) really do that much more than Grabner during the preseason?
Reinprecht is 34 and a 10 years veteran

Just in case you didn't know...

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10-05-2010, 02:29 PM
  #95
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Reinprecht is 34 and a 10 years veteran

Just in case you didn't know...
And obviously tenure and accountability go hand in hand!!!

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10-05-2010, 02:34 PM
  #96
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And obviously tenure and accountability go hand in hand!!!
don't be ridiculous. reino is a productive and versatile veteran.

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10-05-2010, 02:39 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
don't be ridiculous. reino is a productive and versatile veteran.
Strong understanding of rhetoric in the above sequence of posts

Accountability applies to everyone, or no one. You can't apply it selectively. Doesnt matter if its a veteran or a rookie.

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10-05-2010, 02:40 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
don't be ridiculous. reino is a productive and versatile veteran.
Yes where is all the Reino hate coming from? He was one of our better forwards last year, geez. Not to mention he's decent at shootouts.
  • Last year, he played in all 82 games (only Frolik, McCabe and Ballard did that otherwise)
  • Scored 16 goals
  • Got 22 assists giving him 38 points
  • 5th in team scoring
  • Only 18 PIM all season
  • Ended the season -1, not bad on this team (tied for 4th best)

These are quite decent numbers for a 3rd line center. A lot of people here are acting like he's worthless when plenty of teams would be just fine to have him.

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10-05-2010, 02:43 PM
  #99
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don't be ridiculous. reino is a productive and versatile veteran.
What? I'm ridiculous but those who defend Tallon's waiving of Grabner are not?
Their argument is quite clearly that accountability is the issue, thus one should truly earn a spot on the roster, regardless of past point production.
Otherwise, by the same logic of letting Reino (or any other equally unproductive player as Grabner) on the roster just because in the past he has been a "productive and versatile veteran", why not keep Grabner since he is a young and very possibly an up and comer in? Hell, who knows, maybe Grabner will be outscoring Reino in the next 3 years? We cut him, why? "Because he didn't earn a spot on the roster". But Reino does despite having a similar preseason to Grabner?

I just don't understand how in five preseason games someone can say a player "didn't show anything" and quite literally, throw him out. Especially when other players were equally as unproductive.

If this is how it's going to be, all players should be subject to the same terms, regardless of how long they have been playing.
Hopefully that helps illustrates how ridiculous the rationale (accountability) for the defense of Grabner being waived is.

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10-05-2010, 02:46 PM
  #100
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Yes where is all the Reino hate coming from? He was one of our better forwards last year, geez. Not to mention he's decent at shootouts.
  • Last year, he played in all 82 games (only Frolik, McCabe and Ballard did that otherwise)
  • Scored 16 goals
  • Got 22 assists giving him 38 points
  • 5th in team scoring
  • Only 18 PIM all season
  • Ended the season -1, not bad on this team (tied for 4th best)

These are quite decent numbers for a 3rd line center. A lot of people here are acting like he's worthless when plenty of teams would be just fine to have him.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Reino specifically... have you ever heard of rhetorical arguments?

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