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Old
10-05-2010, 03:47 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
Yes where is all the Reino hate coming from? He was one of our better forwards last year, geez. Not to mention he's decent at shootouts.
  • Last year, he played in all 82 games (only Frolik, McCabe and Ballard did that otherwise)
  • Scored 16 goals
  • Got 22 assists giving him 38 points
  • 5th in team scoring
  • Only 18 PIM all season
  • Ended the season -1, not bad on this team (tied for 4th best)

These are quite decent numbers for a 3rd line center. A lot of people here are acting like he's worthless when plenty of teams would be just fine to have him.
I'm not one of the haters*
He went on a nasty cold streak last year after starting the season on a high note. Yea, good numbers for a 3rd line center, too bad he was getting 2nd line minutes.

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10-05-2010, 03:49 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
Yes where is all the Reino hate coming from? He was one of our better forwards last year, geez. Not to mention he's decent at shootouts.
  • Last year, he played in all 82 games (only Frolik, McCabe and Ballard did that otherwise)
  • Scored 16 goals
  • Got 22 assists giving him 38 points
  • 5th in team scoring
  • Only 18 PIM all season
  • Ended the season -1, not bad on this team (tied for 4th best)

These are quite decent numbers for a 3rd line center. A lot of people here are acting like he's worthless when plenty of teams would be just fine to have him.
What is with you people and taking a rhetorical example used to demonstrate a point so literally, then clinging to it like driftwood in a storm.

No one is bashing on Reinprecht, or Kulikov, or McCabe. They were used to show similarities in preseason performances with Grabner, thus demonstrating the fatal flaw in the "accountability" logic.

For gods sake, please go read up and refresh middle school persuasive techniques.

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10-05-2010, 03:55 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
Yes where is all the Reino hate coming from? He was one of our better forwards last year, geez. Not to mention he's decent at shootouts.
  • Last year, he played in all 82 games (only Frolik, McCabe and Ballard did that otherwise)
  • Scored 16 goals
  • Got 22 assists giving him 38 points
  • 5th in team scoring
  • Only 18 PIM all season
  • Ended the season -1, not bad on this team (tied for 4th best)

These are quite decent numbers for a 3rd line center. A lot of people here are acting like he's worthless when plenty of teams would be just fine to have him.
1. He's not a 3rd line center on this team; he's a 3rd line winger now. Something Grabner could've been given a chance to do, CONSIDERING WE'RE REBUILDING.

2. If plenty of teams would be just fine to have him, the Panthers should...trade him.

3. Those numbers aren't that impressive. He was a 2nd line center last year, and didn't even register 40 points, despite a red hot start. His production faded as the season progressed.

He's not a bad player. You're right on that. However, he's better suited on a playoff contender. This isn't a playoff contender. This is a team that should be giving younger players a chance. This is likely Reinprecht's last year here (if he even lasts the whole year); he's not a part of the long-term solution.

Not a bad player; not a big deal. Considering he doesn't make much of a difference scoring wise and isn't young, the team (this year) would be better suited with a guy who's bigger and more physical in his role (assuming they didn't want Grabner in that role, which it's obvious now that they didn't).

Reinprecht isn't a good fit on this team. I said it before camp began, and I think it even more now that Matthias/Santorelli made the team and took his original spots as 2nd/3rd line center.

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10-05-2010, 03:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
1. He's not a 3rd line center on this team; he's a 3rd line winger now. Something Grabner could've been given a chance to do, CONSIDERING WE'RE REBUILDING.

2. If plenty of teams would be just fine to have him, the Panthers should...trade him.

3. Those numbers aren't that impressive. He was a 2nd line center last year, and didn't even register 40 points, despite a red hot start. His production faded as the season progressed.

He's not a bad player. You're right on that. However, he's better suited on a playoff contender. This isn't a playoff contender. This is a team that should be giving younger players a chance. This is likely Reinprecht's last year here (if he even lasts the whole year); he's not a part of the long-term solution.

Not a bad player; not a big deal. Considering he doesn't make much of a difference scoring wise and isn't young, the team (this year) would be better suited with a guy who's bigger and more physical in his role (assuming they didn't want Grabner in that role, which it's obvious now that they didn't).

Reinprecht isn't a good fit on this team. I said it before camp began, and I think it even more now that Matthias/Santorelli made the team and took his original spots as 2nd/3rd line center.
I agree with your points, and they're well composed.

However, this isn't about Reinprecht, and now the thread has been derailed because a few people misinterpreted a rhetorical statement.

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10-05-2010, 04:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
I've had season tickets since '94, and been reading these boards since 06'.

I used those players because the notion was clearly absurd that they would ever be waived, and yet they still had poor preseason performances. Thus showing the futility of using preseason as the end-all be-all argument which has become quite rampant lately.

But go ahead and cling to that, since you so desperately need to convince yourself that the new GM is the savior and can do no wrong.

Cognitive dissonance is on full display on these boards.

You should also work on your comprehension of the use of rhetoric, I've noticed that it is a skill most members here have not learned.
So, you've been reading for 4 years, and suddenly decided to log on and chime in? I see you feel the need to give us a few lessons as well, someone whose really in the know. K, thanks!

Where'd I say Tallon could do no wrong? In fact, I've called a stupid move from the get go, I've just rearranged my thinking, because this is what the fanbase has literally asked for, for how long? Now that it's happening we're all freaking out about it? Further, Grabner was better off in Rochester than he was riding the pine here, argue that, please. How would that have benefited him? He had to clear to go to Rochester, and that was what was best for him, he didn't earn a spot!

You used McCabe and Kuli poorly, they're not pushing for a spot on the team like Grabner was. Keep trying to make your argument, though.

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10-05-2010, 04:02 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Strong understanding of rhetoric in the above sequence of posts

Accountability applies to everyone, or no one. You can't apply it selectively. Doesnt matter if its a veteran or a rookie.
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
What is with you people and taking a rhetorical example used to demonstrate a point so literally, then clinging to it like driftwood in a storm.

No one is bashing on Reinprecht, or Kulikov, or McCabe. They were used to show similarities in preseason performances with Grabner, thus demonstrating the fatal flaw in the "accountability" logic.

For gods sake, please go read up and refresh middle school persuasive techniques.
ok, professor. if that's what you call persuasive...

i hadn't read the entire string of comments and i'm not sure i buy that those posts were "rhetorical" but anyhow, they miss the point. this is not about *blind* accountability. the world doesn't work that way. there were guys playing for jobs and some stepped up while others didn't. grabner failed miserably. any of the vets mentioned in your rhetoric were not fighting for jobs. they will be pushed for minutes (or should be), however, when things count; that's where the accountability comes into play.

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10-05-2010, 04:04 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
What is with you people and taking a rhetorical example used to demonstrate a point so literally, then clinging to it like driftwood in a storm.

No one is bashing on Reinprecht, or Kulikov, or McCabe. They were used to show similarities in preseason performances with Grabner, thus demonstrating the fatal flaw in the "accountability" logic.

For gods sake, please go read up and refresh middle school persuasive techniques.
Or, you can leave, this is how it is, ain't gonna change cause you don't like it. If you want to use those 3 players, be prepared for reality to smack you in the face, none of those 3 are Grabner, who was fighting to earn a spot. All of those 3 have at least one full season of NHL play behind them, Grabner does not. Don't be mad at us because you poorly used an example. Trying to take us back to middle school won't cover that.

If you wanted to use someone, you should've used Duco and Dadonov, but they didn't work because they actually did well, but they didn't make the team, either. Grabner was even given more games, but he didn't impress. Unlike him, though, they didn't have to clear waivers, but Grabner should not have made the team (bench or not) over those 2.

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10-05-2010, 04:05 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
ok, professor. if that's what you call persuasive...

i hadn't read the entire string of comments and i'm not sure i buy that those posts were "rhetorical" but anyhow, they miss the point. this is not about *blind* accountability. the world doesn't work that way. there were guys playing for jobs and some stepped up while others didn't. grabner failed miserably. any of the vets mentioned in your rhetoric were not fighting for jobs. they will be pushed for minutes (or should be), however, when things count; that's where the accountability comes into play.
Good post, and furthers what I'm trying to say. I have a feeling we'll just be told to go back to school, though.

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10-05-2010, 04:06 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
I agree with your points, and they're well composed.

However, this isn't about Reinprecht, and now the thread has been derailed because a few people misinterpreted a rhetorical statement.
I understood your point; I was just responding with some reasons as to why some of us would like to see him traded (at least I would, personally).

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10-05-2010, 04:11 PM
  #110
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I understood your point; I was just responding with some reasons as to why some of us would like to see him traded (at least I would, personally).
He probably will be at some point, if not in the coming days. Not a huge reason to keep him, and we can use the picks.

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10-05-2010, 04:12 PM
  #111
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So, you've been reading for 4 years, and suddenly decided to log on and chime in? I see you feel the need to give us a few lessons as well, someone whose really in the know. K, thanks!

Where'd I say Tallon could do no wrong? In fact, I've called a stupid move from the get go, I've just rearranged my thinking, because this is what the fanbase has literally asked for, for how long? Now that it's happening we're all freaking out about it? Further, Grabner was better off in Rochester than he was riding the pine here, argue that, please. How would that have benefited him? He had to clear to go to Rochester, and that was what was best for him, he didn't earn a spot!

You used McCabe and Kuli poorly, they're not pushing for a spot on the team like Grabner was. Keep trying to make your argument, though.
What have we been asking for for so long? To give away our players for nothing? Because I'm pretty sure we've been doing that for quite some time now.
Lets review: Bouwmeester, Luongo, Grabner, and in effect, Ballard.

The framework for your "accountability" argument is incredibly flawed. You're basically arguing that once a player "earns" his spot on the team, it doesnt matter if he performs or not anymore, which is what I used Kulikov and McCabe to demonstrate. So thank you for proving my point by continuing to harp on that, further showing your inability to comprehend the concept.

Accountability requires constant evaluation of performance, otherwise its NOT accountability. It must also apply to EVERYONE. Your understanding of accountability borders on patronism. Talk about a good way to develop a country club attitude in the locker room.

Furthermore, waiving Grabner didn't even make him accountable for his actions. Now he gets rewarded by playing in the NHL instead of the AHL on a different team. Players will see that, and it isnt accountability.

Also, your continuous ad hominem use of my join date makes you look petty and childish and doesnt lend itself to your argument whatsoever.

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10-05-2010, 04:12 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
ok, professor. if that's what you call persuasive...

i hadn't read the entire string of comments and i'm not sure i buy that those posts were "rhetorical" but anyhow, they miss the point. this is not about *blind* accountability. the world doesn't work that way. there were guys playing for jobs and some stepped up while others didn't. grabner failed miserably. any of the vets mentioned in your rhetoric were not fighting for jobs. they will be pushed for minutes (or should be), however, when things count; that's where the accountability comes into play.
It's a persuasive/rhetorical argument because it's properly exposes an inherently flawed logic. It's not necessarily "persuasive" because we're trying to persuade you to our point of view.

But once again you're just flaunting the very same logic.
What you're implying by saying "they were not fighting for jobs" means that they can play worse than anyone else and keep their jobs over, lets say, a rookie who plays better than them. Having a job shouldn't exempt one from having to put in effort.

And I'm unclear as to what you mean by "when things count" and how accountability comes into play. That is an incredibly ambiguous statement which doesn't make much sense.
Are you trying to say that it really only matters when it's a real game and not a preseason one? If so that lol, all the more reason we should have kept Grabner.

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10-05-2010, 04:14 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by asleepinthechapel View Post
Is Reino going to be a better player than Grabner 10 years from now? 5? 3?
We aren't icing a team right now to go try and make the playoffs, I think that has been made clear.
Did he really do that much more than Grabner during the preseason? Considering his contract, is he really that much better than Grabner for this organization at this point in time?
Obviously not if we are rebuilding.
I don't know, do you? Grabner could be a career AHL for all we know.

This situation is pretty simple. Grabner was expected to pretty easily earn a roster spot on this team. This top 6 is easily one of the worst in the league and he could not do that. He got beat out by other guys who deserve a spot. Because of his age/games played he had to clear waivers. Ideally, you send him to the AHL but he sucked it up when he basically had a roster spot to lose and now he is gone.

You have to expect your players to prove something. Grabner is 23 not 18.

Grabner is extremely overrated if he couldn't crack this roster.

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10-05-2010, 04:16 PM
  #114
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Alright things are getting a bit derailed here (and I'm sorry if I misinterpreted anything), the thread is about Grabner being claimed by the Isles. Let's keep it to that and please don't resort to any attacks to posters.

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10-05-2010, 04:16 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
What have we been asking for for so long? To give away our players for nothing? Because I'm pretty sure we've been doing that for quite some time now.
Lets review: Bouwmeester, Luongo, Grabner, and in effect, Ballard.

The framework for your "accountability" argument is incredibly flawed. You're basically arguing that once a player "earns" his spot on the team, it doesnt matter if he performs or not anymore, which is what I used Kulikov and McCabe to demonstrate. So thank you for proving my point by continuing to harp on that, further showing your inability to comprehend the concept.

Accountability requires constant evaluation of performance, otherwise its NOT accountability. It must also apply to EVERYONE. Your understanding of accountability borders on patronism. Talk about a good way to develop a country club attitude in the locker room.

Furthermore, waiving Grabner didn't even make him accountable for his actions. Now he gets rewarded by playing in the NHL instead of the AHL on a different team. Players will see that, and it isnt accountability.

Also, your continuous ad hominem use of my join date makes you look petty and childish and doesnt lend itself to your argument whatsoever.
boy oh boy, you sure do like to throw around the big words, don't you? unfortunately, you're just spinning your wheels in your own driveway.

your rhetorical argument is based on a flawed understanding of what accountability means at this level. so keep making it if you wish (yes, we get it) but you failed before you even started.

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10-05-2010, 04:17 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Or, you can leave, this is how it is, ain't gonna change cause you don't like it. If you want to use those 3 players, be prepared for reality to smack you in the face, none of those 3 are Grabner, who was fighting to earn a spot. All of those 3 have at least one full season of NHL play behind them, Grabner does not. Don't be mad at us because you poorly used an example. Trying to take us back to middle school won't cover that.

If you wanted to use someone, you should've used Duco and Dadonov, but they didn't work because they actually did well, but they didn't make the team, either. Grabner was even given more games, but he didn't impress. Unlike him, though, they didn't have to clear waivers, but Grabner should not have made the team (bench or not) over those 2.
Okay, you have to understand that he was trying to prove that this rampant "be held accountable" logic which is supposed to now be a definitive characteristic of the organization doesn't hold water if those with tenure aren't also subjected to it...it really isn't that difficult to understand?

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10-05-2010, 04:17 PM
  #117
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I understand the concept of creating an environment where there is no free ride, and everyone has to compete for a spot... but really, Grabner was a decent enough prospect that he should have been kept around for the first 10 games to fully evaluate... especially since he had to clear waivers... you don't win this league by giving up assets for nothing.. and while I watched Grabner for a few years in Vancouver and can hardly call myself a fan, he was a decent enough asset. Not a great strategic move by Tallon...

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10-05-2010, 04:19 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
What is with you people and taking a rhetorical example used to demonstrate a point so literally, then clinging to it like driftwood in a storm.

No one is bashing on Reinprecht, or Kulikov, or McCabe. They were used to show similarities in preseason performances with Grabner, thus demonstrating the fatal flaw in the "accountability" logic.

For gods sake, please go read up and refresh middle school persuasive techniques.
Your point is that other players had bad preseasons therefore Grabner having a bad preseason shouldn't be considered or at least matter as much, correct? Well, you would be wrong since Grabner is a player who has a lot to prove and was supposed to earn a roster spot.

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10-05-2010, 04:19 PM
  #119
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I don't know, do you? Grabner could be a career AHL for all we know.

This situation is pretty simple. Grabner was expected to pretty easily earn a roster spot on this team. This top 6 is easily one of the worst in the league and he could not do that. He got beat out by other guys who deserve a spot. Because of his age/games played he had to clear waivers. Ideally, you send him to the AHL but he sucked it up when he basically had a roster spot to lose and now he is gone.

You have to expect your players to prove something. Grabner is 23 not 18.

Grabner is extremely overrated if he couldn't crack this roster.
So lets be clear now.
Every single player currently on the panthers roster undoubtedly "earned" a spot over Grabner? How so? What's the criteria? If you're going to blindly yield to what Tallon deems as the correct criteria for "earning" a spot, go ahead. But in my mind, after watching the preseason games, there are several others I would have sent down before Grabs, and that's without taking into account his potential.

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10-05-2010, 04:21 PM
  #120
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I don't know, do you? Grabner could be a career AHL for all we know.

This situation is pretty simple. Grabner was expected to pretty easily earn a roster spot on this team. This top 6 is easily one of the worst in the league and he could not do that. He got beat out by other guys who deserve a spot. Because of his age/games played he had to clear waivers. Ideally, you send him to the AHL but he sucked it up when he basically had a roster spot to lose and now he is gone.

You have to expect your players to prove something. Grabner is 23 not 18.

Grabner is extremely overrated if he couldn't crack this roster.
Or perhaps this was just the result of a small sample playing alongside players that weren't really that good, more often than not...since it's preseason.

I'll believe he's extremely overrated if he doesn't put up the points playing for the Isles, this season. Considering how much the Isles suck, I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of their top 6 forwards. Considering the one thing the Isles do have are some good young forwards, it wouldn't surprise me at all if this move came back to bite us in the ass.

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10-05-2010, 04:21 PM
  #121
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Grabner is a good pick-up for a team that needs all the help they can get! This kid was on a lot of sleeper pick lists in pools this year.

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10-05-2010, 04:21 PM
  #122
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Or, you can leave, this is how it is, ain't gonna change cause you don't like it. If you want to use those 3 players, be prepared for reality to smack you in the face, none of those 3 are Grabner, who was fighting to earn a spot. All of those 3 have at least one full season of NHL play behind them, Grabner does not. Don't be mad at us because you poorly used an example. Trying to take us back to middle school won't cover that.

If you wanted to use someone, you should've used Duco and Dadonov, but they didn't work because they actually did well, but they didn't make the team, either. Grabner was even given more games, but he didn't impress. Unlike him, though, they didn't have to clear waivers, but Grabner should not have made the team (bench or not) over those 2.
Oh lawd, I must admit I laughed at this.

The "If you don' like it, you can git out" argument was very very convincing.

I also don't know how you've failed to grasp the concept that there is no difference in the level of accountability that should be expected of a player, whether he is an established veteran, or a rookie working for a roster spot.

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10-05-2010, 04:22 PM
  #123
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It's a persuasive/rhetorical argument because it's properly exposes an inherently flawed logic. It's not necessarily "persuasive" because we're trying to persuade you to our point of view.

But once again you're just flaunting the very same logic.
What you're implying by saying "they were not fighting for jobs" means that they can play worse than anyone else and keep their jobs over, lets say, a rookie who plays better than them. Having a job shouldn't exempt one from having to put in effort.

And I'm unclear as to what you mean by "when things count" and how accountability comes into play. That is an incredibly ambiguous statement which doesn't make much sense.
Are you trying to say that it really only matters when it's a real game and not a preseason one? If so that lol, all the more reason we should have kept Grabner.
I think what ZeroG is trying to say and what i will say is What did grabner ever do to merit giving him a chance on the opening night roster and being like well lets see what the kid does. Mccabe and other veterans know what it takes to win and have earned the respect of being on the opening night roster. They also earned the right to be given a spot with the attitude its your spot to lose. They deserve the chance to show why there still here and on the roster. On the other hand grabner hasnt played more than 20 games in the nhl and hasnt put his tools together since his draft 5 years ago . In addition comes to camp , and doesnt bust his ass for a spot and does nothing to warrant him a spot. We could only speculate on how good of a nhler grabner can be , so we need to stop acting like we let go the great one.

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10-05-2010, 04:22 PM
  #124
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I don't disagree with waiving Grabner if he has shown to be a bad fit with the organization with a poor future outlook. What I do disagree with is the initial trade for him back in June and management's ability to evaluate him properly.

At this point, a 7th round draft pick or a bag of pucks would've been more useful than trading for him. I understand that the team wanted to take a chance on him, but it looks like they made a poor bet and weren't quite willing to see it through. Don't they have the option to just waive him partway through the season if he continues to sink?

I'll chalk this up to a failed bet on a player that hasn't quite developed yet. I personally would've given him more time but they didn't really have room for him. Olesz would never be waived.

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10-05-2010, 04:27 PM
  #125
Laus723
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 27,219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
What have we been asking for for so long? To give away our players for nothing? Because I'm pretty sure we've been doing that for quite some time now.
Lets review: Bouwmeester, Luongo, Grabner, and in effect, Ballard.

The framework for your "accountability" argument is incredibly flawed. You're basically arguing that once a player "earns" his spot on the team, it doesnt matter if he performs or not anymore, which is what I used Kulikov and McCabe to demonstrate. So thank you for proving my point by continuing to harp on that, further showing your inability to comprehend the concept.

Accountability requires constant evaluation of performance, otherwise its NOT accountability. It must also apply to EVERYONE. Your understanding of accountability borders on patronism. Talk about a good way to develop a country club attitude in the locker room.

Furthermore, waiving Grabner didn't even make him accountable for his actions. Now he gets rewarded by playing in the NHL instead of the AHL on a different team. Players will see that, and it isnt accountability.

Also, your continuous ad hominem use of my join date makes you look petty and childish and doesnt lend itself to your argument whatsoever.
Bouw, he did what last season? If you've been hanging around since 06, you'd know my feelings on he, Nate, and Louie.

Your argument was supposed to be about the pre-season, correct? Again, reality sets in, none of the 3 you mentioned were vying for a job like Grabner was. So again, argument doesn't work.

He didn't make this team, again I ask, what's the benefit of him spending a huge part of the season on the bench?? None of your arguments hold water.

Your join date was brought up because: A, you called us out earlier, but you'd just joined, and B, because you feel this constant need to educate us. Yeah, I'M petty.

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