HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

[NSH/VAN] Ryan Parent + Jonas Andersson for Shane O'Brien & Dan Genur, Parent waived

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-05-2010, 07:55 PM
  #126
Paranoid Android
ERMAHGERD
 
Paranoid Android's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 11,708
vCash: 500
Andersson is not as great as some of these scouting reports claim... he was meh in camp. Fast, but that's just about it.

FYI, for reasons I cannot figure out, Andersson is not subject to waivers. That is an official statement from the NHL.

I guess it's because he didn't play 5 years in NA. Only 4

Paranoid Android is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 08:14 PM
  #127
Agent007
Registered User
 
Agent007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,584
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
As of now, Nashville the clear winner here. SOB is best player in the deal and plays right away with the Preds. When on his game OB is a solid NHL player.

Parent is much more suspect than prospect and has no where near established himself as an NHL player. Real nice Junior who was once viewed as equivalent to LeTang. Does not seem to have enough speed.

Andersson has never shown himself suited to North American hockey and at 29 is an unlikely prospect

Nashville thus gives up two fringe players to get a decent NHL player. Vancouver gets off the hook for OB' s contract and the organization establishes across the League that they will be player friendly enough not stick a legit player in the minors. (might have look bad to future possible free agent pickups). Also the Canucks dump a bad contract opening up a roster spot.

Vancouver was over a barrel and, to continue the metaphor, got bent over in this trade. However, given the situation this was likely to occur.
I don't understand how Vancouver got bent over in this trade when SOB was on waivers and available for free a day earlier.

The only difference here is that Vancouver gets a young defencemen that hopefully clears waivers and can then be reassigned to Manitoba where he can work towards getting his game back and Vancouver also gets a depth forward who doesn't require waivers.

In other words Vancouver actually adds some depth to the equation where as before they had SOB taking up a roster spot in Manitoba with very little chance of seeing any more action in a Canucks uniform.

Vancouver doesn't get bent over by any stretch of the imagination.

From where Vancouver was standing it was either pay $1.6m for SOB to play in the minors or get a depth forward plus a project defencemen back in return.

Agent007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 08:40 PM
  #128
Uhmkay
Weber2Canucks2013
 
Uhmkay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
As of now, Nashville the clear winner here. SOB is best player in the deal and plays right away with the Preds. When on his game OB is a solid NHL player.

Parent is much more suspect than prospect and has no where near established himself as an NHL player. Real nice Junior who was once viewed as equivalent to LeTang. Does not seem to have enough speed.

Andersson has never shown himself suited to North American hockey and at 29 is an unlikely prospect

Nashville thus gives up two fringe players to get a decent NHL player. Vancouver gets off the hook for OB' s contract and the organization establishes across the League that they will be player friendly enough not stick a legit player in the minors. (might have look bad to future possible free agent pickups). Also the Canucks dump a bad contract opening up a roster spot.

Vancouver was over a barrel and, to continue the metaphor, got bent over in this trade. However, given the situation this was likely to occur.
This is an absolutely brutal analysis of the trade. Vancouver managed to get rid of O'Brien *AND* Gendur. O'Brien they were unable to give away for nothing just a few days ago, and now suddenly they get two decent prospects in return. Gendur will NEVER make the NHL, he's not even a good AHL player. He's literally a waste of a contract, that is pinning the Canucks up against 50 as it is.

Now instead of getting nothing for Obrien, they get Parent, who although has had a rough start getting into the NHL, he's still young enough that he could become a serviceable defensive dman in the future. If he's picked up in waivers, as I think the Canucks believe he may be, then that will also free up 900K in Cap space for the Canucks, and give them a much needed Contract spot that they are in need of if they plan on bringing in any more bodies at the trade deadline if they are going to push for a Stanley Cup at that time.

Jonas Anderson is already 29, but has shown promise this last year that he was in the minors. He's got great speed, and he has size to boot. Word is that he's not scared to go to the dirty areas and actually creates some very good chances. This guy could possibly play on the third line in the near future, or be a possible callup to play on the 2nd.

What were you expecting for Shane OBrien. And you're calling him the BEST players in the deal? Do you really think he's a GREAT player? We weren't going to get anything for this guy. He's a #6-7 dman on the Canucks, maybe a #5 on other teams and that's likely he'll ever be.

Lets not forget that when OBrien got his new contract, we didn't have people like Hamhuis, etc. As soon as we obtained our new blueline guys, which there was no guarantee that we would when O'Brien was resigned, he became expendable, and every other team knew it. The fact that we got anything back for him, let alone two prospects baffles me. O'Brien is not a very good defenseman and takes HORRIBLE penalties at the worst possible times.

This deal was spectacular asset management by GM MG. It reduces our Salary Cap giving us more flexability, gives us a young defensive prospect we can work with, and a guy in Jonas Anderson who scored 6 goals at this years World Hockey Championships...... for SHANE O'BRIEN.

Canucks take this deal and run.

Uhmkay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 08:44 PM
  #129
Paranoid Android
ERMAHGERD
 
Paranoid Android's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 11,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent007 View Post
I don't understand how Vancouver got bent over in this trade when SOB was on waivers and available for free a day earlier.

The only difference here is that Vancouver gets a young defencemen that hopefully clears waivers and can then be reassigned to Manitoba where he can work towards getting his game back and Vancouver also gets a depth forward who doesn't require waivers.

In other words Vancouver actually adds some depth to the equation where as before they had SOB taking up a roster spot in Manitoba with very little chance of seeing any more action in a Canucks uniform.

Vancouver doesn't get bent over by any stretch of the imagination.

From where Vancouver was standing it was either pay $1.6m for SOB to play in the minors or get a depth forward plus a project defencemen back in return.
I agree. Vancouver does not lose at all. They lost a player who they didn't want and gained good depth for him.

Nashville gets an upgrade on their #6 spot and now do not have to waste precious salary on Andersson to play in Milwaukee. Vancouver can afford to stash him in the minors.

Paranoid Android is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 08:52 PM
  #130
Bubbles
Tank for Tyler2016
 
Bubbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: BC Teams:Nucks,Juve
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,414
vCash: 500
I would have liked Parent and a pick instead, to offload another contract. But oh well. Good luck SOB, your contract was just too much.

Bubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 08:57 PM
  #131
Paranoid Android
ERMAHGERD
 
Paranoid Android's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 11,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhmkay View Post
This is an absolutely brutal analysis of the trade. Vancouver managed to get rid of O'Brien *AND* Gendur. O'Brien they were unable to give away for nothing just a few days ago, and now suddenly they get two decent prospects in return. Gendur will NEVER make the NHL, he's not even a good AHL player. He's literally a waste of a contract, that is pinning the Canucks up against 50 as it is.

Now instead of getting nothing for Obrien, they get Parent, who although has had a rough start getting into the NHL, he's still young enough that he could become a serviceable defensive dman in the future. If he's picked up in waivers, as I think the Canucks believe he may be, then that will also free up 900K in Cap space for the Canucks, and give them a much needed Contract spot that they are in need of if they plan on bringing in any more bodies at the trade deadline if they are going to push for a Stanley Cup at that time.

Jonas Anderson is already 29, but has shown promise this last year that he was in the minors. He's got great speed, and he has size to boot. Word is that he's not scared to go to the dirty areas and actually creates some very good chances. This guy could possibly play on the third line in the near future, or be a possible callup to play on the 2nd.

What were you expecting for Shane OBrien. And you're calling him the BEST players in the deal? Do you really think he's a GREAT player? We weren't going to get anything for this guy. He's a #6-7 dman on the Canucks, maybe a #5 on other teams and that's likely he'll ever be.

Lets not forget that when OBrien got his new contract, we didn't have people like Hamhuis, etc. As soon as we obtained our new blueline guys, which there was no guarantee that we would when O'Brien was resigned, he became expendable, and every other team knew it. The fact that we got anything back for him, let alone two prospects baffles me. O'Brien is not a very good defenseman and takes HORRIBLE penalties at the worst possible times.

This deal was spectacular asset management by GM MG. It reduces our Salary Cap giving us more flexability, gives us a young defensive prospect we can work with, and a guy in Jonas Anderson who scored 6 goals at this years World Hockey Championships...... for SHANE O'BRIEN.

Canucks take this deal and run.
OK yes, the guy who you quoted did make a terrible analysis, but I think you went a bit overboard with yours.

Andersson didn't play in the minors last year. He has about as much chance as playing in your top six as SOB has playing in our top 4. Let's not go crazy over a guy who hasn't played a game in NA for several years.

Just because he said SOB was the best player in the deal doesn't mean he is a "great" player. Saying he is the best player in the deal is not a stretch by any means. He is the best player in the deal.

Vancouver doesn't gain cap space from this deal. Shane already cleared waivers and was going to be reassigned which would have cleared cap space. This is a wash, salary wise, for now.

It is a win-win for both sides.

Paranoid Android is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 09:11 PM
  #132
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 28,107
vCash: 500
Hooray for posters who view trades in contractual term$ first and foremost. Deals like this one (and many many more) are tranactions based on finances and roster manuverability much moreso than talent exchanges.

A such, the predictable "ABC Team got PWND!" line, silly to begin with, is even more misplaced.

Trottier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 09:27 PM
  #133
pedrospecialk
Registered User
 
pedrospecialk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waltham, MA
Country: Iran
Posts: 3,258
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to pedrospecialk
Not too much to say here, works out for both ends pretty well. Nashville fills out their d-corps while having the cap space to take on O'Brien. Vancouver gets their #1 target in cap space while taking a flier on Andersson and praying that Parent clears waivers.

Bit fuzzy on this but is Parent subject to re-entry if he gets called back up? (sorry if this was mentioned before).

pedrospecialk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 09:32 PM
  #134
Paranoid Android
ERMAHGERD
 
Paranoid Android's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 11,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedrospecialk View Post
Bit fuzzy on this but is Parent subject to re-entry if he gets called back up? (sorry if this was mentioned before).
Yes.

I don't think he'll clear regular waivers though. He definitely wouldn't clear re-entry waivers.

Paranoid Android is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 09:53 PM
  #135
KingPuckChoo
Registered User
 
KingPuckChoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Hooray for posters who view trades in contractual term$ first and foremost. Deals like this one (and many many more) are tranactions based on finances and roster manuverability much moreso than talent exchanges.

A such, the predictable "ABC Team got PWND!" line, silly to begin with, is even more misplaced.
well if you ask me, Team ABC really got owned in this deal

KingPuckChoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 10:30 PM
  #136
The Big Foot
Registered User
 
The Big Foot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Bhutan
Posts: 2,596
vCash: 500
For the Canucks SOB became a negative asset. Not good enough to make the team. He was eighth on the depth chart coming out of camp, with Salo hurt, and his contract is way too high for someone who by rights shouldn't even be dressing.

If he hadn't been traded, after passing through waivers, he probably would have been loaned to another AHL club, to leave space for prospects and probably more than anything keep him the hell away from any young pros. So the Canucks would have been paying him 1.6 to NOT play for their organization. This is as much of a salary dump as you can get.

Not to mention Gendur was a waste of a contract spot as well. He probably would have ended up in the ECHL, possibly not even on our farm team in Victoria.

So it's a complete dump for the Canucks. As long as the guys coming back don't become negative assets right away as well it's a solid win for the Canucks.

Which doesn't mean it can't be a win for the Preds as well...SOB showed flashes of being a solid top five defenseman, and he can for sure perform up to his salary with a change of scenery.

So I'd say it's a win-win.

The Big Foot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 11:38 PM
  #137
kivaerijo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: EastNashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,392
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhmkay View Post
Jonas Anderson is already 29, but has shown promise this last year that he was in the minors.
maybe i am confused. and i am serious. i think i have seen this posted in this thread before.

wasnt he in the khl last year? last time he was in ahl was like 8 years ago? or are you calling the khl "minors"? he only had ONE decent year in europe his whole career.

not negating the rest of post..you could well be right. just looking for clarification here.

thanks

edit: see i have been beating to this idea. thanks android

kivaerijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2010, 11:54 PM
  #138
Bobby Lou
Moustache Power
 
Bobby Lou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Crease
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,379
vCash: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent007 View Post
I don't understand how Vancouver got bent over in this trade when SOB was on waivers and available for free a day earlier.
This!

I really don't understand how some posters are looking at this trade since O'Brien was available for free like...yesterday. I'd say both teams got what they needed. And I'm not as ready to write-off Parent as some, though if he gets claimed it sort of works for us as well since we need contract and cap space.

Bobby Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 12:40 AM
  #139
shortshorts
The OG Kesler Hater
 
shortshorts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,885
vCash: 500
Gillis is assuming someone picks up Parent. Clearing up a contract space.

shortshorts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 01:18 AM
  #140
Moobles
Registered User
 
Moobles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,552
vCash: 500
A decent trade for both teams for different reasons. The Canucks get closer to making the salary cap and Nashville gets a decent 5th/6th defenseman.

Moobles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 01:24 AM
  #141
EpochLink
Canucks and Jets fan
 
EpochLink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,854
vCash: 500
Salary dump, we need to get under the cap.

EpochLink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 01:29 AM
  #142
Paranoid Android
ERMAHGERD
 
Paranoid Android's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 11,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moobles View Post
A decent trade for both teams for different reasons. The Canucks get closer to making the salary cap and Nashville gets a decent 5th/6th defenseman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
Salary dump, we need to get under the cap.
Shane had already cleared waivers and was going to be reassigned to Victoria, eliminating his cap hit. This move had nothing to do with the cap. It had all to do with Shane being a headcase.

Paranoid Android is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 03:08 AM
  #143
YogiCanucks
Registered User
 
YogiCanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,445
vCash: 500
O'Brien isn't NEARLY as bad as people are making him out to be. If you throw him into 2nd or 3rd D with 20-25 minutes/game he will probably not impress. But you give him protected minutes (behind Websie and Suts) 15mins/game as a 4th or 5th he's going to be solid. Adds a big of toughness and has rather under appreciated puck skills.

YogiCanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 03:16 AM
  #144
Canucks5551
Registered User
 
Canucks5551's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Shane had already cleared waivers and was going to be reassigned to Victoria, eliminating his cap hit. This move had nothing to do with the cap. It had all to do with Shane being a headcase.
I'm pretty sure SOB was not on his way down to the ECHL.

Canucks5551 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 03:19 AM
  #145
David71
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,252
vCash: 500
i can't find jonas andersson in nhl 11!

David71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 04:13 AM
  #146
orcatown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,713
vCash: 500
Player for player the Canucks lose this deal. Yes the deal has salary cap implications and that is why the Canucks were forced (as noted) into a corner.

Ordinary you don't trade Shane O'Brien for Parent but in this case, where the Canucks have serious cap issues, you make the deal. But that does not negate the fact that the Preds get the better of the deal.

And the fact that SOB could have been had off waivers for nothing does not negate the fact that the Preds win the deal. The Preds not only get the best player but also were able to shed a one way NHL contract they didn't want and picked up Gendur's minor League salary in return. So it works out better for them than just picking SOB off waivers.

The deal is like the Ehrhoff deal last year. The cap situation in San Jose (plus the desire to pick Heatley) led to them making an even more unbalanced deal with the Canucks. Should Wilson be blamed? No. And should Gillis be blamed now? No. Each had to make a one way deal because of the cap.

It may be that Parent's career turns around and he develops into a good player. But that does not change the fact that, as the situation stands, the Preds were able to take advantage of the Canucks cap problems.

I don't understand how some Canuck fans go ballistic if someone suggests that a trade isn't a slam dunk for the team. At times, the situation will dictate,as it did here, that the Canucks are on the wrong side of trade. Saying that this or that may happen (Andersson may suddenly develop in an NHL player pumping in goals along side the Sedins or Parent may mature into a bona vide NHL defenseman) is idle speculation and the just the usual kind of hopeful or wishful thinking that fan bases always engage in when a trade is made. Who knows, maybe last year some Shark fans were thinking the Ehrhoff trade would bring them future stars in Patrick White or Daniel Rahimi.

However such musings are not the way trades need to be judged. Realistically the observation has to be made that SOB is a legit NHL player and that Parent, in spite of opportunities to do so, has not come close to realizing this and that Andersson is probably never going to play in the league.

It should also be noted that the Canucks probably want Parent to be picked up to create contract openings and are willing to accept a SOB for the minor league Anderssson as the deal. However, even at this point, there would probably be people who still want to contrive some scenario where the Canucks won the deal.

orcatown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 05:03 AM
  #147
Blane Youngblood
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,469
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
But that does not change the fact that, as the situation stands, the Preds were able to take advantage of the Canucks cap problems.

I don't understand how some Canuck fans go ballistic if someone suggests that a trade isn't a slam dunk for the team. At times, the situation will dictate,as it did here, that the Canucks are on the wrong side of trade.

However such musings are not the way trades need to be judged. Realistically the observation has to be made that SOB is a legit NHL player and that Parent, in spite of opportunities to do so, has not come close to realizing this and that Andersson is probably never going to play in the league.

It should also be noted that the Canucks probably want Parent to be picked up to create contract openings and are willing to accept a SOB for the minor league Anderssson as the deal. However, even at this point, there would probably be people who still want to contrive some scenario where the Canucks won the deal.
I think Nashville gets a player that they want for a price they are willing to pay (due to the salary dumps of Parent and Anderson).

I think Vancouver gets Parent and Anderson for the Moose rather then sending O'Brien there - which is a win for them - especially considering the Moose have agreed to pay Anderson's salary because they wanted him and SOB wouldn't be the best influence on young players. You are also smart enough to know that O'Brien didn't make the Canucks and just cleared waivers while not having a restrictive salary ($1.6m is not much at all) and as a result really doesn't have much value at all. In fact, when someone clears waivers with such a small salary, it could be argued that they are a marginal NHLer especially when they were scratched 16 times in the prior year.

There are basically no cap implecations at all for either team since all players involved were either already sent or being sent to the minors. Calling this a cap move is a pile of BS.

Seems like a win-win to me.

Blane Youngblood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 05:16 AM
  #148
Paranoid Android
ERMAHGERD
 
Paranoid Android's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 11,708
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucks5551 View Post
I'm pretty sure SOB was not on his way down to the ECHL.
Hah, whoops, you know what I mean.

Wait, no I did that on purpose. You don't want SOB around your good prospects in Manitoba! Pretty soon they'll all start clubbing after games

Paranoid Android is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 06:34 AM
  #149
Rivet52
Sabres & Blackhawks
 
Rivet52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,832
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Rivet52
So the reason Nashville made this trade was to add O'Brien to make their defense better?

If so, smart trade for both teams. The Canucks get rid of O'Brien and a guy not even worthy of playing in the AHL. This provides them with cap space. It also opens a roster spot if Parent clears. If he doesn't, they send him to Manitoba to develop. At the very least, they got a prospect, a roster spot, and cap space out of the trade. If Parent clears, they got two prospects.

Nashville adds O'Brien to make their defense better and tougher. They obviously saw Parent as expendable and wanted O'Brien instead of having to have Parent in the lineup.

Now Andersson is interesting in that he just signed a contract with the Predators less than a year ago correct? I remember reading an article about the Predators finally signing a player they drafted 10 years ago and that player was Andersson.

Another question. Say the Islanders are interested in claiming Parent. Can they claim him even though they claimed Grabner yesterday?

Rivet52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-06-2010, 06:50 AM
  #150
Roland of Gilead
The Gunslinger
 
Roland of Gilead's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oulu
Posts: 840
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Fast, but that's just about it.
Wrong. How many games you have seen him playing?

He played here at my hometeam Oulun Kärpät, Finland 2008-2009. 55 games 24+33= 57 points.

He has big size, but still good speed. He protects the puck well and he has good hands. He has nice shot too. Not using his size enought in hits (maybe because his injuries in the past)

Anderson have had lots of problems with injuries in the past and with those injuries he lost a little bit his self-confidence. In season 2008-2009 he found it and he was great. Anderson could be 3rd liner (or even 2nd liner, depends the team) if he gets a decent change.


Last edited by Roland of Gilead: 10-06-2010 at 06:55 AM.
Roland of Gilead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.