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the irony of the flames demise

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06-09-2004, 10:46 AM
  #26
Marconius
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Originally Posted by HotToddy
I'm very glad the hated Flames didn't win the cup. I couldn't have handled Flames fans (excluding the flag bearing idiots who couldn't name 3 Flames players 9 weeks ago) lording this one over us for many years.

Having said that some Oil fans need to get off their petty wall and face a very important facts;The Flames aren't going anywhere.

They have the best player in the world right now. If you don't think that having a game breaker, bull of a leader on your team like Jarome Iginla doesn't guarantee a playoff contender status for the Flames, your smoking grass. Especially in today's NHL world were goals are scarce. Jarome Iginla by himself makes Calgary a better team than the Oilers.

I watched the Flames every game this playoffs save one or two. This team ain't no Minny or Anaheim. They beat the #1,#2,#3 seeds in the west and took the best team in the East to a 7th game heartbreaker. They were without arguably a second line (Reinprecht, Deano and Lombardi) in the finals as well as quality players like Gauthier and Donovan. Minny and Anaheim were trap specialist reams whose game plan was based on breaks, goaltending and special temas and caught a hot streak at the right time. Calgary played like vultures on speed, thye out worked and out skated every team they played. They were quite simply the most relentless team I've ever seen when it came to puck pursuit and attacking the net. There entire lineup took no shortcuts. I don't want to hear the "look what happen to Carolina/Anaheim/Washinton after their runs" if you can't realize the difference between this Flames team and a hot goalie/snoreafest Ducks team or a S***ty Hurricanes team that battled through a weak East then you haven't been watching enough playoff hockey in your life.

Added to all this is the fact that they have a great young 'D' corp that had now been seasoned in playoff intensity. Best player in the world + rock solid young D + relaible goaltending = playoff team any year in today's NHL.

Nevermind finances, this team's owners have shown a willingness to take losses and now they have the revenues from TWELVE playoff gates (plus the cut from the sales of all those bandwagon flags and Kipper jerseys sold to fairweather fans) to balance a budget for the next 2-3 years, if you honestly think there will be wholesale changes to that lineup - dream on.

I'm not saying the Oil can't accomplish great things and they will, IMO, present a good challenge to Calgary in the BOA. But again proven goaltending and the best player in the world will give the Flames the edge and Oil fans need to stop degrading themselves with stupid "I'm more happy about the current status of our team" comments. Stop the "pettiness" now.

P.S. - The Flames didn't lose the cup because of a lack of a #1 center of PP quaterbacking. When you lose in an intensly fought game seven of the Stanley Cup final after losing OT in Game 6 with a 3-2 lead, It's out of skills hands and into the realm of fate.

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06-09-2004, 10:58 AM
  #27
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I may be a little on the slow side, but did I see that Calgary had the 2nd best goaltending in the finals? IMO, as long as the Flames get historic goaltending from Kipper, then they are a very good team. If they get good goaltending from Kipper, they will not be in the playoffs next year.

This is exactly the same thing that happened to the mighty ducks.

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06-09-2004, 11:02 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
They have too little talent and too many players that are below average that had incredible seasons/playoffs (Donovan, Nieminen, Nillson, Commodore, Montador, Ferrence, etc).


Ditto with Edmonton and Torres, Moreau, Dvorak, Staios, Ulanov, Bergeron and Conklin.


Last edited by Burke's Evil Spirit: 06-09-2004 at 11:05 AM.
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06-09-2004, 11:04 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Granted, but they've had the best player in the World for a couple of years now. Not only that, but based on the past 2 games, it is pretty safe to say that if you eliminate Iginla (easier said than done, I know), the Flames are toast. Iginla has been a game breaker for 3 years now, and this was the first time the Flames made the playoffs, so no, having Iginla doesn't guarantee the Flames anything.
I thought this was the first real season Iginla became a gamebreaker. I realize he won the scoring title and everything, but I really think this season was his coming out party. He was always an elite offensive player, but he took 1 more step up the ladder this season, imo, and became THE go-to guy. The difference between a Yzerman & a Yashin/Hossa.

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They only thing Calgary did differently than either Minnesota or Anaheim was continually throw in a fore-checker... Other than that, it was 4 guys in the neutral zone clogging the crap out of it. Calgary looked like a relentless always skating team because they were always in position. They had one forechecker in deep, and the other 4 players attacked the outlet pass. That is exactly how they played in the playoffs.
I don't understand your point here. Calgary played an extremely well coached game....and it worked for them. Vistually every team in the playoffs employs some variation of the trap.

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Do you honestly think a hot goaltender had no bearing on them making it as far as they did in the playoffs? They gave up 69 shots in the last 2 games against Detroit and won both games 1-0. They won 1 game when their goaltending gave up 3 or more goals. Those S***ty Hurricanes also beat two of the better teams in the league that year (Toronto and the Devils). Anaheim last year beat 2 conference champions as well as the team who beat the other 2 teams in the top 4 in the conference. The Flames aren't much different... especially not in them beating better teams.
While Kipper was great, like any goaltender who makes it to the final, I don't think he had that insane unbeatable aura like someone like Gigiure had last season.
I don't think Kipper was on a hot streak, so to speak, he was just playing at a skillful level, a skillful level I don't see no reaosn why he can't maintain (especially if the Flames keep up their defence)

Quote:
As we've seen, great young D have numerous ups and downs, and let's not forget to ask Anaheim how it feels to have "reliable" goaltending. We've seen this countless times in the past few years. Theodore, Turco, Giguere have all had incredible seasons only to falter badly at various other times in the near future.
Granted Kipper could fall off like the goaltenders you mention.

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They also have 2 huge contracts that are up... Iginla and Kipper. Kipper could probably command Giggy type money, and Iginla is going to make at least the $7mil he made this year, but could probably look for upwards of $10mil if he wanted to... Calgary made a marginal profit this season, and it's debatable how much more money the owners were willing to lose. They could very well have been in the same boat as the Oilers in that they were simply trying to get to 2004. How much more do you think they are willing to lose?
Another good point, what do you think the odds are that both players get signed? And if both get signed, what kind of payroll does that leave for the rest of the team, especially the young & upcoming defence who will be in line for some richer contracts sooner rather then later

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Calgary's proven that you can have the best player in the world and not make the playoffs. If Kipper is anything resembling human next year, the Flames are going to be in a world of hurt. It took Kipper playing absolutely incredible to get them into the playoffs, and the Flames are royally screwed if Iggy or Kipper gets any kind of serious injury next year.
I disagree. I think the Flames are setup to survive something like this. They would, obviously, still take a hit if either player went down, but their commitment to defence and teamfirst philosophy will help them out

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Don't you think that maybe that power play quarterback or true first line centre might not have gotten them that one goal they needed in game 6? Or maybe allowed them to play a few less games than the 19 it took to get to the finals? It's very much in skills hands when you are one goal away from the Stanley Cup... we saw it in Tampa, skill took over and they won.
I agree with the earlier poster who said that if a team makes it to Game 7 in the SCF, fate takes over. A 1/2 inch on the Gelinas in game 6 means the Falmes win, does that mean they would have been the most talented team?

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06-09-2004, 11:16 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
Another good point, what do you think the odds are that both players get signed? And if both get signed, what kind of payroll does that leave for the rest of the team, especially the young & upcoming defence who will be in line for some richer contracts sooner rather then later

Factor Conroy and Macammond into the mix for contracts as well.

Unlike the other two, Calagry has to compete with the open market for these guys (although this is probably the best year to do so).

On a side note re the future of the Flames; Spectors today is saying that Regehr's agent has contacted a Swedish team to work out a contract for next season.

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06-09-2004, 11:24 AM
  #31
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I think it simply comes down to Kipper. If he plays as he did this year - I think the Flames would have a hard time missing the playoffs, and will be a team to be reckoned with. If he plays badly I think the Flames have as much a chance of missing the playoffs as the OIlers/ Kings/ Preds etc.

Mind you - I can see no reason to believe his play would tail off (but I said the same thing about Giggy last year).

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06-09-2004, 11:25 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit


Ditto with Edmonton and Torres, Moreau, Dvorak, Staios, Ulanov, Bergeron and Conklin.

LOL!!!!

That was funny. What reason do you have to suggest those guys are one year wonders?

Torres - high draft pick that was expected to have seasons like he just did, He just never did it for NYI.

Moreau - Admittedly a high season for him but next year he'll be around 15+ goals and great defensively. Plus this was his first year where he said injuries weren't a real factor.

Dvorak - He put up these numbers before! How is that out of the ordinary for him. He just recovered from knee surgery.

Staios - He has been a rock for us since he signed as a FA.

Ulanov - Admittedly a surprise but some players only seem to gel with one team, Look at Luc and the Kings, he can't play for anyone else.

Bergeron/Conklin - Too early too tell but both had great hockey careers before this year playing for the NCAA and QMJHL. Bergeron had a 100 point season in the Q as a D-man. And Conklin played great last year in the AHL and effectively caused us to trade our starter this year. I have faith that both will have fine seasons next year

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06-09-2004, 11:27 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
They have the best player in the world right now. If you don't think that having a game breaker, bull of a leader on your team like Jarome Iginla doesn't guarantee a playoff contender status for the Flames, your smoking grass. Especially in today's NHL world were goals are scarce. Jarome Iginla by himself makes Calgary a better team than the Oilers.
Not much to add since I pretty much agree with the other replies. I do want to add that one year, Dougie Weight finished with 104 points for the Oilers and the team still missed the players. One player means jack s**t. I will concede that maybe, maybe a goalie culd take you all the way.

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06-09-2004, 11:29 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
I thought this was the first real season Iginla became a gamebreaker. I realize he won the scoring title and everything, but I really think this season was his coming out party. He was always an elite offensive player, but he took 1 more step up the ladder this season, imo, and became THE go-to guy. The
difference between a Yzerman & a Yashin/Hossa.
Well he's been the go-to guy in Cowtown for 3 years now. If you mean he stepped up in more important games this year, then maybe you're right... but anyone who can score 50 goals and play physical is a game-breaker to me, and Iggy has been that for a while.

Quote:
I don't understand your point here. Calgary played an extremely well coached game....and it worked for them. Vistually every team in the playoffs employs some variation of the trap.
You'd understand my point if you read it in context with what I replied to... HT said Calgary wasn't at all like Minnesota or Anaheim by continually playing the trap... I argued that point.

Quote:
While Kipper was great, like any goaltender who makes it to the final, I don't think he had that insane unbeatable aura like someone like Gigiure had last season. I don't think Kipper was on a hot streak, so to speak, he was just playing at a skillful level, a skillful level I don't see no reaosn why he can't maintain (especially if the Flames keep up their defence)
Giving up 0 goals on 69 shots in 2 OT games against one of the best offensive teams in the league. Kipper was very much like Giguere was last season. He just got a lot less credit because of how his team was playing in front of him. But don't think for a second that Calgay would have gone anywhere with any of the other goaltenders in the playoffs (Khabibulin included, he barely did anything in the first 9 games of the playoffs). And if you think that posting a 1.69 GAA in the regular season is just playing at a skillful level, then I don't understand how GAA's like that aren't posted all the time. He played significantly better this year than he had in any other season, and like I said earlier, goaltenders have a history of doing that and not following it up (Theo, Turco, Giguere)

Quote:
Another good point, what do you think the odds are that both players get signed? And if both get signed, what kind of payroll does that leave for the rest of the team, especially the young & upcoming defence who will be in line for some richer contracts sooner rather then later
Calgary has no choice but to sign both guys. Gauthier is pretty much gone, and most likely McAmmond. I don't know if that will be enough especially seeing as Regher is going to be looking for the same kind of money Brewer makes now (although I think he is signed until next year).

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I disagree. I think the Flames are setup to survive something like this. They would, obviously, still take a hit if either player went down, but their commitment to defence and teamfirst philosophy will help them out
For how long though? I am sure Igor has this somewhere, but I wonder what Calgary's 5 on 5 numbers were like without Iginla on the ice... I'll venture a guess and say -24 for the playoffs. They certainly can't score without him, and they were only winning 2-1, 1-0 games with him in the lineup... it's hard to give up 1 goal or less everytime you go out there. As for Kipper, Calgary was in trouble without Kipper (-2 without him in terms of W/L)... and now with the talk of them trying to get rid of Turek, that would leave them with Sabourin, who demonstrated quite clearly last year that he wasn't ready for the NHL. Not to say that Calgary wouldn't remain competetive, but it would be a game by game thing, with a lot of close scores, but not a lot of W's for the Flames.

Quote:
I agree with the earlier poster who said that if a team makes it to Game 7 in the SCF, fate takes over. A 1/2 inch on the Gelinas in game 6 means the Falmes win, does that mean they would have been the most talented team?
If Calgary had Mike Modano (of 2 years ago), they would have won the cup. I never said that talent wins all the time, but to ignore it and say talent would have no bearing and that fate would take over is silly to me. I mean Iginla was targeted in game 6 and 7, and did virtually nothing. If Calgary had maybe had another top player, maybe Iginla wouldn't have had all the focus, or maybe said other player could have stepped up. When two teams are equal in terms of work ethic, talent wins out, and that is exactly what happened in the playoffs. If they had another skilled player who bought into the way they played, it would have been a huge difference maker.

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06-09-2004, 11:39 AM
  #35
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This argument is getting absurd. I think a lot of the argument is based on what I think is becoming a common Oiler fan syndrom that I call love of potential. Who can really blame us because we've had nothing but potential to cheer for most of the past dozen seasons. Young potential becoming NHL players only to be firesaled for more potential and young players has become the accepted reality for us Oil fans. The problem though is that potential is worth nothing. Young teams struggle in the NHL no matter how good their pedigree is and the two most important pieces to a winning team is a stud, allstar-gamebreaking leader and a stellar goalie. Neither of which I currently see on our team's lineup.

But to answer the question posed by C&B as of today the team I would take would be the Flames. Not because I'm a Flame fan (I still remember as a 12 year old in 86 locking myself in my bedroom and crying like a little wuss and I believe any Oil fan who cheered for the Flames this year must be too young to remember the pain of that year) but because I will not let blind loyalty cloud reason.

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06-09-2004, 11:59 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by s7ark
LOL!!!!

That was funny. What reason do you have to suggest those guys are one year wonders?
I don't. Just like Walsher doesn't have a reason to suggest all those Flames he listed are one-year wonders.

Not to say that they're all well-established NHL regulars now, but I think you will see a lot of guys (on both lists!) continue to improve while some will falter.

And frankly, I'll trust Darryl Sutter more than Craig MacTavish when it comes to helping young players sustain short-term success.

Edit - have you forgotten Ales Hemsky already?

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06-09-2004, 12:09 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HotToddy
the two most important pieces to a winning team is a stud, allstar-gamebreaking leader and a stellar goalie. Neither of which I currently see on our team's lineup.
I'm curious, in '97 when Weight was one year removed from 100+ pts (and just coming off an 80+ pt season), and Curtis Joseph was tending the twine, did you see the Oilers as a team on the verge?

Speaking for myself and my blind loyalty, I recall going into the '98 season with the same feeling I had going into the '97 season. I remember feeling that going into a season with 1 line was not the blueprint for success. I was simply hoping they would make the playoffs and was equally split that it could go either way.

In fact, I have had that same feeling every year since, up until now, where I finally feel that this team of PONTENTIAL is poised to take the next step.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
But to answer the question posed by C&B as of today the team I would take would be the Flames. Not because I'm a Flame fan (I still remember as a 12 year old in 86 locking myself in my bedroom and crying like a little wuss and I believe any Oil fan who cheered for the Flames this year must be too young to remember the pain of that year) but because I will not let blind loyalty cloud reason.
I concede that loyalty can cloud reason, but I don't see that as being any different than watching the Flames go through an IMPROBABALE and likely UNREPEATABLE playoff run and judging them only on that accomplishment.

Yes the leapfrogged Edmonton in the regular season standings and that justifies the need to take notice of the team, but a 5 point spread in the regular season is a huge difference from seeing them as sudden perennial cup contenders.

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06-09-2004, 12:11 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
This argument is getting absurd. I think a lot of the argument is based on what I think is becoming a common Oiler fan syndrom that I call love of potential. Who can really blame us because we've had nothing but potential to cheer for most of the past dozen seasons. Young potential becoming NHL players only to be firesaled for more potential and young players has become the accepted reality for us Oil fans. The problem though is that potential is worth nothing. Young teams struggle in the NHL no matter how good their pedigree is and the two most important pieces to a winning team is a stud, allstar-gamebreaking leader and a stellar goalie. Neither of which I currently see on our team's lineup.

But to answer the question posed by C&B as of today the team I would take would be the Flames. Not because I'm a Flame fan (I still remember as a 12 year old in 86 locking myself in my bedroom and crying like a little wuss and I believe any Oil fan who cheered for the Flames this year must be too young to remember the pain of that year) but because I will not let blind loyalty cloud reason.
There seem to be 2 extremes of Oiler fans on this board. On one hand, you have the extremely unhappy people with a very caustic view of the Oiler organization & future, player management & player development & player potential. In the other corner you have an extreme case of blind homerism, over-estimating potential (Yes, Mikhnov & Niinimaki will form a powerfull 1-2 punch at center and combine for 70 goals between them in the near future), and a unshakable devotion to MacT & Lowe. I think of myself as falling somewhere in the middle of those 2 points. You, HotToddy, there is no question which end of the spectrum you are at.

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06-09-2004, 12:38 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
There seem to be 2 extremes of Oiler fans on this board. On one hand, you have the extremely unhappy people with a very caustic view of the Oiler organization & future, player management & player development & player potential. In the other corner you have an extreme case of blind homerism, over-estimating potential (Yes, Mikhnov & Niinimaki will form a powerfull 1-2 punch at center and combine for 70 goals between them in the near future), and a unshakable devotion to MacT & Lowe. I think of myself as falling somewhere in the middle of those 2 points. You, HotToddy, there is no question which end of the spectrum you are at.
I don't think I would paint myself in the corner as unhappy. I am fairly optimistic about the future. In fact I think the Flames run shows that the Oilers can be capable of competing in the playoffs. This may sound strange but I think the two teams play a similar style, both rely on hardwork and relentless puck pursuit. The difference is of course Iginla and goaltending.

The Flames run didn't make me unhappy because it made ,me as an Oiler fan, feel like our team is weaker. If anything I believe the Flames success will be a good thing for the Oil franchise.

My only point is it's wrong and foolish to write off the Flames, to say things like "they're a below average team at best" is just childish. If they are below average what are we with 4 playoff wins in four years? They are a very good team right now and we need to accept that. If the Oilers are going to succeed they are going to have to meet and beat the Flames and I for one don't think that will be a walkover as many comments on this board would leave you to believe. There is a serious competitor in the province now and too take them lightly would be a perilous mistake.

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06-09-2004, 01:27 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
My only point is it's wrong and foolish to write off the Flames, to say things like "they're a below average team at best" is just childish. If they are below average what are we with 4 playoff wins in four years? They are a very good team right now and we need to accept that. If the Oilers are going to succeed they are going to have to meet and beat the Flames and I for one don't think that will be a walkover as many comments on this board would leave you to believe. There is a serious competitor in the province now and too take them lightly would be a perilous mistake.
Really? I don't. I don't expect Kipper to keep up his level of play and that was what got that Flames where they were last year. Are the Ducks, Wild and Canes all better then us too? They all had great runs in the playoffs. I agree that Calgary improved a lot this year but to claim that they are a good team is a stretch. They will be fighting for a playoff spot next year. The Oilers are far better positioned then Calgary in the next 3-4 years.

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06-09-2004, 01:43 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Well he's been the go-to guy in Cowtown for 3 years now. If you mean he stepped up in more important games this year, then maybe you're right... but anyone who can score 50 goals and play physical is a game-breaker to me, and Iggy has been that for a while.
To clarify, I meant that Iginla has been Calgary's go-to guy for the last 3 years, just like Smyth has been for Edmonton, but niether of them would be an NHL-wide go-to guy...until Iginla this year.

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You'd understand my point if you read it in context with what I replied to... HT said Calgary wasn't at all like Minnesota or Anaheim by continually playing the trap... I argued that point.
Fair enough, but I still say almost every quality team in the NHL plays some sort of trap...which really has nothing to do with your point, so nevermind

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Giving up 0 goals on 69 shots in 2 OT games against one of the best offensive teams in the league. Kipper was very much like Giguere was last season. He just got a lot less credit because of how his team was playing in front of him. But don't think for a second that Calgay would have gone anywhere with any of the other goaltenders in the playoffs (Khabibulin included, he barely did anything in the first 9 games of the playoffs). And if you think that posting a 1.69 GAA in the regular season is just playing at a skillful level, then I don't understand how GAA's like that aren't posted all the time. He played significantly better this year than he had in any other season, and like I said earlier, goaltenders have a history of doing that and not following it up (Theo, Turco, Giguere)
You're right, throughout the season Kipper did have that unbeatable aura at times, but during the playoffs he was nothing more then a good goalie, just like Khabibulin (By 'nothing more' I just mean that you can always assume both goalies in the final are playing at an extrememly skillful level, but it wasn't like Kipper blew away the goalie performances of other SCF goalies).

I just didn't think Kipper ever captured that aura in the playoffs. He was a great goalie playing behind tough defence, but he wasn't a Hasek/Brodeur (of years past) where he totally got inside the other teams heads.

I disagree with your assertion that Calgary was dead in the water without Kipper. Kipper was absolutely important in reaching the playoffs, but once they were there, I think you could have substituted a few goalies (especially Khabibulin) and not shook them up to bad.

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Calgary has no choice but to sign both guys. Gauthier is pretty much gone, and most likely McAmmond. I don't know if that will be enough especially seeing as Regher is going to be looking for the same kind of money Brewer makes now (although I think he is signed until next year).
I actually forgot that McAmmond even came back to Calgary....where was he all year, did the McAmmond-Conroy-Iggy line never recapture the magic of that one season?

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If Calgary had Mike Modano (of 2 years ago), they would have won the cup. I never said that talent wins all the time, but to ignore it and say talent would have no bearing and that fate would take over is silly to me. I mean Iginla was targeted in game 6 and 7, and did virtually nothing. If Calgary had maybe had another top player, maybe Iginla wouldn't have had all the focus, or maybe said other player could have stepped up. When two teams are equal in terms of work ethic, talent wins out, and that is exactly what happened in the playoffs. If they had another skilled player who bought into the way they played, it would have been a huge difference maker.
I suppose we could argue for days about hypotheticals, and you're right Modano on any team would improve any team's chances. I think the Sutter defensive system & team philosophy has the ability to nullify talent though, as they proved by going through all the top-rated seeds in the playoffs. You couldn't argue (I hope) that the Flames were as talented as Detroit/Vancouver/San Jose, but they defeated them. Why? Because in this era of tight checking and obstruction it's easier then ever to nullify silky-smooth talent with grit determination and what I like to call the Sutter-effect

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06-09-2004, 09:16 PM
  #42
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Hey, money isn't nearly as big an issue in Calgary as its made to seem. Collectively the owners have lost somewhere around 25 million dollars over the last 7 non-playoff years, that's the number I seem to remember them saying anyway, I could be wrong. Not that I don't trust owners, but if you were to assume that the 8 Calgary owners all owned equal portions of the team (which they don't but it makes the math simplier for me ) That means each of them lost about 3 million dollars apiece over the last 7 years. I would assume in reality they each lost between 1 and 6 million then, depending on percentages owned. Not that that isn't quite a bit of money to you and I, but these guys aren't in the poor house, I'm with Theo Fleury on this one, there's quite a bit of money in Calgary's ownership and they ain't exactly losing buckets of money each year, I mean less than a million a year each isn't that bad compared to other situations. Also, don't forget that the ownership in Calgary also owns the Hitman and the Saddledome, I really believe that overall they make money if you include all the ventures they have surrounding the Hockey Arena. I think its worth their while to keep the Flames in Calgary for under $40 million dollars next year, and I think that that can be done, I could post on that as well, but I'm done for now. (BTW Iginla can be qualified for 7 million next year, Kipper is the real problem, $3-5 mill I would guess, but losing D-Mac would be $1.5 mil and trading Guathier could be about $1.5 mil and losing Simon would be about $1.5 mil, thus essentially paying for Kipper, Their Payroll will likely hang under $40 mil I would think, but I'll have to wait for the numbers on some contracts, since they don't like to tell them, and a couple of RFA raises, Conroy sounds like he wants to stay as well $3.2 mil would get that done I would think, a raise of $1 million, that is assuming he's resigned before July 1st.)

And if they drop to last and win the Lotto they get Crosby and won't have to worry about a No.1 center for at least 10 years


Last edited by kruezer: 06-09-2004 at 09:29 PM.
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