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Is Mark Recchi a First-Ballot HOFer?

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Old
10-11-2010, 03:27 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
96 points in the late 90s and early 2000s was a lot different than 86 points in the early 90s. Your use of total points in the 90s is also a poor measurement. Mark Grace had the most hits in baseball in the 1990s. That argument is only used when you don't have something substantial to lean on.
For real? Holy ****. Never would have guessed in a million years.

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10-11-2010, 03:41 PM
  #52
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For real? Holy ****. Never would have guessed in a million years.
So you can see why arguments like that don't do anything for me.

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10-11-2010, 03:46 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
96 points in the late 90s and early 2000s was a lot different than 86 points in the early 90s. Your use of total points in the 90s is also a poor measurement. Mark Grace had the most hits in baseball in the 1990s. That argument is only used when you don't have something substantial to lean on.
You're comparing point total in hockey to a totally different statistical measurement from a totally different sport (with about a million wildly-different statistics)?

Being the 6th highest scoring hockey player in a decade is an awesome achievement when you bring context into it.

-Recchi scored more points than many probable and first-ballot HOFers over the same period, which demonstrates how consistently good he was
-he was 3 times a top 5 scorer during this time, which demonstrates he wasn't a compiler and was often a top-tier forward (the same amount of top 5 finishes as guys like Yzerman, Brett Hull, Trottier and Francis)
-scored 34 points as a key player on a Cup winner and had excellent playoff numbers overall, so he has the clutch factor augmenting his status as a regular season point leader
-known as a hard worker and a dependable team guy on and off the ice, separating him from flaky 90s point leaders like Fleury and Turgeon

Taken all together, a hell of a run that many HOFers would love to have had

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10-11-2010, 04:00 PM
  #54
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Not a typical first ballot player, but will get in if it's a weak year the first time.

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10-11-2010, 04:20 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
You're comparing point total in hockey to a totally different statistical measurement from a totally different sport (with about a million wildly-different statistics)?

Being the 6th highest scoring hockey player in a decade is an awesome achievement when you bring context into it.

-Recchi scored more points than many probable and first-ballot HOFers over the same period, which demonstrates how consistently good he was
-he was 3 times a top 5 scorer during this time, which demonstrates he wasn't a compiler and was often a top-tier forward (the same amount of top 5 finishes as guys like Yzerman, Brett Hull, Trottier and Francis)
-scored 34 points as a key player on a Cup winner and had excellent playoff numbers overall, so he has the clutch factor augmenting his status as a regular season point leader
-known as a hard worker and a dependable team guy on and off the ice, separating him from flaky 90s point leaders like Fleury and Turgeon

Taken all together, a hell of a run that many HOFers would love to have had
You're making that seem more impressive than it is. John Leclair was twice in the top 5, led the NHL in +/- once, also was a key contributor to a cup team and was a 2 time first team all star and named to the 2nd team three times. Leclair doesn't have a hope in hell at the hall and yet his career peak was substantially larger than Recchi's. The way I look at Recchi is that nobody considered him a hall of famer 5 years ago, or even a potential hall of famer. His only accomplishments since then are that he is still playing and has passed some milestones he reached only because of longevity.

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10-11-2010, 04:23 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
You're making that seem more impressive than it is. John Leclair was twice in the top 5, led the NHL in +/- once, also was a key contributor to a cup team and was a 2 time first team all star and named to the 2nd team three times. Leclair doesn't have a hope in hell at the hall and yet his career peak was substantially larger than Recchi's. The way I look at Recchi is that nobody considered him a hall of famer 5 years ago, or even a potential hall of famer. His only accomplishments since then are that he is still playing and has passed some milestones he reached only because of longevity.
I wouldn't be so sure about that...

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10-11-2010, 04:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Leclair doesn't have a hope in hell at the hall and yet his career peak was substantially larger than Recchi's.

Looking at the recent inductions I think you're going to be real surprised at some point. He'd be far from the worst guy they've inducted lately.

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10-11-2010, 06:50 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
You're making that seem more impressive than it is. John Leclair was twice in the top 5, led the NHL in +/- once, also was a key contributor to a cup team and was a 2 time first team all star and named to the 2nd team three times. Leclair doesn't have a hope in hell at the hall and yet his career peak was substantially larger than Recchi's. The way I look at Recchi is that nobody considered him a hall of famer 5 years ago, or even a potential hall of famer. His only accomplishments since then are that he is still playing and has passed some milestones he reached only because of longevity.
Is Leclair's peak that much higher than Recchi's or even higher at all? I do not think so. Leclair had a 6 year peak consecutive and after and before he was not an exceptional player. Recchi has a 4 year run as good as Leclair's and then has later seasons where he was a top player and in between he was far. far better than Leclair ever was.

Is Recchi's career which overlapped Modano, Sundin, Oates, Gilmour really that much different when you look at it as a whole? He looks more like a HHOFer the more you look at his career.

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10-11-2010, 09:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
-known as a hard worker and a dependable team guy on and off the ice, separating him from flaky 90s point leaders like Fleury and Turgeon

Taken all together, a hell of a run that many HOFers would love to have had
I agreed with your post up until then. Flaky? Fleury? Okay Turgeon fine, but Fleury wasn't a guy I'd consider flaky.

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10-11-2010, 09:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I wouldn't be so sure about that...
It really would lower the bar if Leclair got in. Markus Naslund would deserve it more and we all know the opinion most of us have about Naslund's bipolar career. Leclair, Tkachuk, guys like that had GOOD careers. Thats it

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10-11-2010, 10:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
You're making that seem more impressive than it is. John Leclair was twice in the top 5, led the NHL in +/- once, also was a key contributor to a cup team and was a 2 time first team all star and named to the 2nd team three times. Leclair doesn't have a hope in hell at the hall and yet his career peak was substantially larger than Recchi's. The way I look at Recchi is that nobody considered him a hall of famer 5 years ago, or even a potential hall of famer. His only accomplishments since then are that he is still playing and has passed some milestones he reached only because of longevity.
-+/- is useless
-Leclair was a secondary player with 4 goals during his Cup run. Recchi had the 11th highest point total in history during his
-Leclair had only 6 great seasons and is outside of the top 15 for his best 10-year stretch. He did nothing outside of his short peak, while Recchi was productive for a long time. 9 years between his first top-4 finish and his 3rd with tons of good seasons and an iron-man stretch between
-Leclair had a couple of good runs, but overall sub-par playoff production relative to regular season
-left wing all-star selections are by far the easiest to get and not worth much when comparing a LW to a C/RW

Absolutely no contest at all between Recchi and Leclair in this context. And this is not even considering Recchi's solid post-2000 career, just his 90s run


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10-11-2010, 10:58 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I agreed with your post up until then. Flaky? Fleury? Okay Turgeon fine, but Fleury wasn't a guy I'd consider flaky.
Not flaky in the same way as Turgeon, maybe I could have picked a better word to make a clearer distinction... obviously Fleury had the heart of a lion, but he was not a model citizen and became a distraction even while he was still a top player. Recchi is all class and was as dependable as a player could ever be on and off the ice.

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10-11-2010, 11:03 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
96 points in the late 90s and early 2000s was a lot different than 86 points in the early 90s. Your use of total points in the 90s is also a poor measurement. Mark Grace had the most hits in baseball in the 1990s. That argument is only used when you don't have something substantial to lean on.
I just showed you a comparison of Jagr and Recchi's best ten-year periods from a point production standpoint, and Recchi was just 10% behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
You're making that seem more impressive than it is. John Leclair was twice in the top 5, led the NHL in +/- once, also was a key contributor to a cup team and was a 2 time first team all star and named to the 2nd team three times. Leclair doesn't have a hope in hell at the hall and yet his career peak was substantially larger than Recchi's. The way I look at Recchi is that nobody considered him a hall of famer 5 years ago, or even a potential hall of famer. His only accomplishments since then are that he is still playing and has passed some milestones he reached only because of longevity.
Leclair was a secondary player every time he was top-5 in scoring. Recchi was the star of his team every time he was top-5. God, I'm not sure how you think the two are at all comparable.

but revolver is owning you in this one, I'll leave it at that, thanks for saving me some time, revolver!

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10-12-2010, 12:18 AM
  #64
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I just showed you a comparison of Jagr and Recchi's best ten-year periods from a point production standpoint, and Recchi was just 10% behind.



Leclair was a secondary player every time he was top-5 in scoring. Recchi was the star of his team every time he was top-5. God, I'm not sure how you think the two are at all comparable.

but revolver is owning you in this one, I'll leave it at that, thanks for saving me some time, revolver!
That's a load of crap and you know it. Recchi was never THE star of his team. He may have lead the team in scoring in 2000, but make no mistake that was still Lindros and Leclair's team. You also used a flawed comparison between Jagr and Recchi. Most of Recchi's best seasons came during a ridiculously high scoring era where 120 points was not a rare accomplishment. As for the Leclair comparison, I think it is safe to say Leclair's peak was better, although not by a whole lot, and in that instance Recchi's longevity certainly pushes him ahead, but come on, neither guy deserve to make the hall.

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10-12-2010, 01:02 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
That's a load of crap and you know it. Recchi was never THE star of his team. He may have lead the team in scoring in 2000, but make no mistake that was still Lindros and Leclair's team. You also used a flawed comparison between Jagr and Recchi. Most of Recchi's best seasons came during a ridiculously high scoring era where 120 points was not a rare accomplishment. As for the Leclair comparison, I think it is safe to say Leclair's peak was better, although not by a whole lot, and in that instance Recchi's longevity certainly pushes him ahead, but come on, neither guy deserve to make the hall.
Clearly you didn't pay attention to the fact that Recchi led his teams in scoring 9 times. Leclair never did it once. Leclair was not much more than average without playing on Lindros's wing.

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10-12-2010, 06:55 AM
  #66
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Clearly you didn't pay attention to the fact that Recchi led his teams in scoring 9 times. Leclair never did it once. Leclair was not much more than average without playing on Lindros's wing.
Just doing a fact check, and Leclair did lead the Flyers in scoring twice.

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10-12-2010, 08:23 AM
  #67
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It really would lower the bar if Leclair got in. Markus Naslund would deserve it more and we all know the opinion most of us have about Naslund's bipolar career. Leclair, Tkachuk, guys like that had GOOD careers. Thats it
Best LW in the game for like 5 years... that's more than Naslund can say. Key member of a Stanley Cup team... that's more than Naslund can say. Willing to take punishment to help his team... that's more than Naslund can say.

A key member of his country's national team for years and one of the best players in a major tournament victory... that's more than Naslund can say.

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10-12-2010, 08:25 AM
  #68
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Just doing a fact check, and Leclair did lead the Flyers in scoring twice.
He also scored at a similar rate when Lindros was out of the lineup with one of his many injuries.

He also was fantastic in the 1996 World Cup, maybe the US's best forward, obviously without Lindros.

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10-12-2010, 08:51 AM
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Best LW in the game for like 5 years... that's more than Naslund can say. Key member of a Stanley Cup team... that's more than Naslund can say. Willing to take punishment to help his team... that's more than Naslund can say.

A key member of his country's national team for years and one of the best players in a major tournament victory... that's more than Naslund can say.
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He also scored at a similar rate when Lindros was out of the lineup with one of his many injuries.

He also was fantastic in the 1996 World Cup, maybe the US's best forward, obviously without Lindros.
Well said, well said... I agree with every word in these posts.
I remember LeClair same way.

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10-12-2010, 09:53 AM
  #70
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Key member of a Stanley Cup team...
I agree with most of what you are saying.. Leclair was a monster during his prime, but a key member of a Stanley Cup team is really stretching it.

I mean he was 8th on the team in scoring during that cup run.

His 3 50 goal seasons in the mid-late 90s is a really impressive accomplishment though.

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10-12-2010, 09:57 AM
  #71
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I agree with most of what you are saying.. Leclair was a monster during his prime, but a key member of a Stanley Cup team is really stretching it.

I mean he was 8th on the team in scoring during that cup run.

His 3 50 goal seasons in the mid-late 90s is a really impressive accomplishment though.
If Niewendyk was a "key" member of every Stanley Cup team he played on, then Leclair was definitely "key" in his one Cup....



(You're right, it's a stretch).

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10-12-2010, 10:01 AM
  #72
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If Niewendyk was a "key" member of every Stanley Cup team he played on, then Leclair was definitely "key" in his one Cup....



(You're right, it's a stretch).
I'd say Joe was a key guy on 2/3 but certainly not in New Jersey. Leadership and faceoffs for sure but he wasn't all that productive and got hurt so...

As for Recchi I think for sure he'll be a hall of famer but it will depend on who is eligible as to whether he is first ballot or not.

Guys with 3 100 point seasons, multiple cup wins, and who have also lasted as long as him are hard to make a case against really.

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10-12-2010, 02:17 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
That's a load of crap and you know it. Recchi was never THE star of his team. He may have lead the team in scoring in 2000, but make no mistake that was still Lindros and Leclair's team. You also used a flawed comparison between Jagr and Recchi. Most of Recchi's best seasons came during a ridiculously high scoring era where 120 points was not a rare accomplishment. As for the Leclair comparison, I think it is safe to say Leclair's peak was better, although not by a whole lot, and in that instance Recchi's longevity certainly pushes him ahead, but come on, neither guy deserve to make the hall.
If your argument is simply that Recchi doesn't belong in the hall because he's only x amount better than LeClair, then you don't have much. Recchi's had more than enough time as a top-5 scorer in the league (3 times), as a top-20 scorer (8 times), and as a sub-top-20 scorer with very good stats (8 more seasons on top of that) to get in the hall. Compare those simple figures to just about any winger from the last 40 years who is not an absolute no-brainer for the hall (like Hull, Ovechkin, Kurri, Bossy, Lafleur, Jagr, and Selanne, and those scoring exploits look pretty good compared to any of them. This includes Robitaille, Neely, Bure, Cournoyer, Iginla, Shanahan, McDonald, Barber, Gillies, Gartner, Anderson, Goulet, Kerr, Naslund, Naslund, Kariya, Shutt, Middleron, Gilbert, LeClair, Propp, Ciccarelli, Kovalchuk, Martin, Mullen, St. Louis, Alfredsson, Hossa, Larmer, Stevens, Bondra, Tkachuk, Elias, Verbeek, Heatley, Mogilny, Andreychuk, Vaive, Palffy and Fleury. That is a long list of undisputed HHOFers, disputed HHOFers, guys whose names are tossed around as good bets for the future or "why isn't he in yet?" and other very good players, and there should be little doubt that Recchi is more offensively established than the vast majority of them, if not all.

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10-12-2010, 02:28 PM
  #74
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If I was building a team and knew I could have a guy for his entire career, I'd take Oates and Gilmour ahead of Mark Recchi. But I'd also take those guys ahead of Robitaille, Ciccarelli, Gartner, Federko, Neely, Gillies, Shutt and Barber as well, but what the hell do I know.
You obviously do not know much if you could have Neely but would rather have Oates or Gilmour instead.

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10-12-2010, 02:31 PM
  #75
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I agree with most of what you are saying.. Leclair was a monster during his prime, but a key member of a Stanley Cup team is really stretching it.

I mean he was 8th on the team in scoring during that cup run.

His 3 50 goal seasons in the mid-late 90s is a really impressive accomplishment though.
he scored 2 overtime goals in the cup finals, that's pretty key if you ask me. If he doesn't step up Montreal could very well have lost both of those games.

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