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2010/11 Fire Randy Carlyle / Bob Murray (Bob Extended 4 Yrs/ Fans = Life Sentence)

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Old
10-12-2010, 02:44 PM
  #76
Mwd711
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Originally Posted by karacter View Post
You think wrong. The rest of your post makes sense and has valid arguments, but this team's defense would be much better if we had Martin.
Obviously we'll never know I think Lydman is underrated and Martin would've been grossly overpaid to ever have gotten him to play for the Ducks. It's unfortunate that Lydman had his medical problems because I felt that was a good pickup and left us with some wiggle room financially. Overpaying for Martin wouldn't have left us any wiggle room. That was my main argument to those who said we should've made him a big offer to entice him. It would've left the team extremely vulnerable for the season unless you could jettison some other contracts. Maybe Saku and Teemu would've signed for less. Who knows but it's all in the past.

I don't think the team's record would be any different with Martin in the lineup. Not the way this team has played the first three games. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Martin's, but I just don't see him changing the makeup of an entire team like a Pronger or Niedermayer could. Those guys are few and far in between. Even with Martin, the D would still be lacking. In my hypothetical Top 6, you have even less proven players than what was out there for the first game this season. Fowler, Sbisa and Mikk would've been slotted in top 6 whether there were injuries or not and I doubt anyone would've felt comfortable going into the season with that top 6. I don't think Martin alone can make up for that.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. The Ducks are stuck with what they have and nothing will change that soon. The defense is only one part of the issue. The team's problems go well beyond just that. Blaming the defense alone is taking the easy way out.

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10-12-2010, 06:06 PM
  #77
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^^ The defense is 99% of the problem and has been the last 2 seasons.
Can someone dig up Murrays Quote about himself sitting back waiting while all the good Defensive UFA were being signed than he was forced to sign Lydman.

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10-12-2010, 10:18 PM
  #78
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I agree Murray is the main problem. Some of us have hated his bargain bin style signings since last year. Yet there are some who continued to blindly to defend Murray with various reasons:

1) We didnt have the cap space to sign anyone decent last year. While some of us were getting pissed while we watched everyone decent getting signed and Bob waited till the end and ended up with Boynton and Eminger. But we were just overreacting...

-We had plenty of cap space this year and he did the same thing. Oh wait, he had to leave the cap space to sign Ryan. Wonder what next year's excuse will be.

2) It's stupid to assume that any good UFA's want to sign here. There's no evidence that any of them wanted to come to Ana.

-Well, there's no evidence that they didnt and that Bob ever tried to sign them. Your assumption is no different that anyone else's who had assumed he never tried. So if my assumption is stupid, then so is yours.

Also, let me point out how people say Whitney for Lubo was a good move. Even someone else posted earlier in this thread that Lubo is worth Kunitz and Tangradi so trading them for Whitney and then trading Whitney for Lubo was a good deal. Wrong. Here's why:

People are trying to say we traded A for B, and then B for C, so A=C. No. We traded both players for Whitney, and then traded Whitney after he played horrible most of the season. That Whitney have a much lower value. Obviously, player's values dont rise or even stay the same with lower performance = lower value.

It was with the lowered value Whitney that we landed Lubo. So, would it have taken Kunitz AND Tangradi to land Lubo? Seriously doubt it. So, basically we overpayed for Lubo. Would we have traded them both for Lubo? Sure. Would he have had to if we never traded them for Whitney? Absolutely not.

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10-12-2010, 10:21 PM
  #79
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Having posted all that about Murray. I believe Carlyle has blame also. His system just doesnt work anymore. Our team is playing like an AHL team. Horrible plays, bad passing, dumb decisions with the puck, stupid dump and chase over and over. There's no way, even with our horrible D, that our roster justifies how bad we've played the first three games. I mean its a very small sample size, THIS season. Unfortunately, those three games combined with last season, its a pretty decent sample size.

And like i said before, when you have so much turnover on D, yet they still play exactly the same and make the same mistakes, you cant overlook the coach and his system when it comes to laying blame.

The signs have been there for several seasons now, and we just kept making excuses and trying to put band-aids on the problems.

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10-12-2010, 10:22 PM
  #80
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Just fire Carlyle already. These next ones being home games will look way worse

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10-12-2010, 11:29 PM
  #81
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*edit* Nevermind.. haha. Damn Thrashers..


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10-13-2010, 12:40 AM
  #82
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It was with the lowered value Whitney that we landed Lubo. So, would it have taken Kunitz AND Tangradi to land Lubo? Seriously doubt it. So, basically we overpayed for Lubo. Would we have traded them both for Lubo? Sure. Would he have had to if we never traded them for Whitney? Absolutely not.
It would sure take Kunitz and Tangradi to get someone like Lubo the way he have been playing the last 5 years. Until now, he's been a top 30 defenseman in the league, and a top 15 defenseman in his prime. Not to mention that he has 3 years remaining on his contract.

To get someone like that, it sure will cost you a 2nd line, 50+ point winger and a solid prospect. If you think otherwise, you're seriously overrating prospects value. Tangradi didn't exactly have Filatov or Pietrangelo value...

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10-13-2010, 12:41 PM
  #83
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New blood on behind the bench could work wonders......

What do you think of Scotty as a replacement?

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10-13-2010, 01:46 PM
  #84
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Until now, he's been a top 30 defenseman in the league, and a top 15 defenseman in his prime.
Lubo's good, but he's nowhere near that good. Plus he needs a really excellent partner to maximize his effectiveness. And then there are the injuries issues.

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10-13-2010, 02:24 PM
  #85
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I think Randy is a great coach but you cant play his style with this team.

And he has lost the lockeroom.

No way he lasts the whole season unless we have a major turnaround. I really dont care if randy or Bob stay... but 1 of them have to go.

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10-13-2010, 03:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
It would sure take Kunitz and Tangradi to get someone like Lubo the way he have been playing the last 5 years. Until now, he's been a top 30 defenseman in the league, and a top 15 defenseman in his prime. Not to mention that he has 3 years remaining on his contract.

To get someone like that, it sure will cost you a 2nd line, 50+ point winger and a solid prospect. If you think otherwise, you're seriously overrating prospects value. Tangradi didn't exactly have Filatov or Pietrangelo value...
Is that what it costs to get lubo? Because we got him and it only cost us Whitney. A Whitney that sucked the whole season. Would you trade Kunitz and tangradi for Whitney now that we've seen him play for us? I certainly wouldn't and that landed us Vis so obviously it wouldn't have taken both of them.

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10-13-2010, 03:52 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by 2faded View Post
Is that what it costs to get lubo? Because we got him and it only cost us Whitney. A Whitney that sucked the whole season. Would you trade Kunitz and tangradi for Whitney now that we've seen him play for us? I certainly wouldn't and that landed us Vis so obviously it wouldn't have taken both of them.
The Whitney for Visnovsky trade was considered a bargain at the time. And the circumstances were totally different. Whitney has much more value to a team like Edmonton than he has to Vancouver for instance.

Was the Kunitz + Tangradi for Whitney trade bad? Sure was when you look at it now. But Whitney is a better defenseman than he was with the Ducks.

Whitney has a #1 role in Edmonton, Wisniewski has a #1 role with the Islanders, Christensen is the #1 or #2 center with the Rangers. Neither was a good fit here due to the system, but I'm not convinced Carlyle's system works at all anymore. The Ducks didn't exactly do well with Scotty, Pronger, Beauchemin, Pahlsson, Moen and Rob still on the team in 07/08 and 08/09 either, at least not in the regular season. This team was a sinking ship already before Murray took over. But if he and Carlyle can't turn things around pretty soon both should be fired imo.

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10-13-2010, 04:57 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post

Whitney has a #1 role in Edmonton, Wisniewski has a #1 role with the Islanders, Christensen is the #1 or #2 center with the Rangers. Neither was a good fit here due to the system, but I'm not convinced Carlyle's system works at all anymore. The Ducks didn't exactly do well with Scotty, Pronger, Beauchemin, Pahlsson, Moen and Rob still on the team in 07/08 and 08/09 either, at least not in the regular season. This team was a sinking ship already before Murray took over. But if he and Carlyle can't turn things around pretty soon both should be fired imo.
They may have #1 roles on those teams but that's a testament to how bad those teams are, not how good Whitney, Wisniewski and Christensen are. It's only a matter of time before fans of the Islanders and Oilers are complaining about those guys just as we did. Christensen spent last year centering Gaborik and getting top offensive minutes only to barely put up 0.5PPG, hardly successful given the circumstances.

As for 07/08, the team struggled that year due to the Niedermayer & Selanne distractions, the cup hangover and the fact that we had no secondary scoring due to the trade of McDonald. Even then they managed over 100 points and if not for drawing the worst possible matchup in the first round in Dallas I'm sure they could have advanced further in the playoffs. In 08/09 the team was doing fine until Beauchemin went down and then stuggled from there on out due to no secondary scoring, Giguere's meltdown and the fact that outside of Pronger and Niedermayer there were no quality defenseman on the roster. I believe the top two pairings at one point consisted of Pronger, Niedermayer, Mikkelson and Festerling. As soon as Murray acquired some defenseman at the deadline and Hiller was declared the number one goalie, the team went on a tear and came awfully close to at least the conference finals, maybe even another finals appearance.

I agree that Carlyle may have worn out his welcome but I think the teams struggles have a lot more to do with Murray and the terrible defense cores and lack of a quality bottom 6 forward unit he's put out there than Carlyle's coaching. Murray needs to either rebuild or put out a competitive roster, not make half-assed signings that make it look like he's trying for the sake of filling a roster spot. The constant bargain hunting has grown old also.

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Old
10-13-2010, 05:18 PM
  #89
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This game is the deal breaker as far as Carlyle goes IMO. If he can't get the team to play with some sort of composed urgency (ie. actual hockey, not giving up 3 goals and gooning it up for the last 40 minutes) for the home opener of all games, he deserves to be canned tomorrow.

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10-13-2010, 06:25 PM
  #90
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As much as I want RC gone, I dont think it will happen until the defense is all back. Murray will blame the D woes on injuries and probably let RC slide for a while.

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10-13-2010, 06:38 PM
  #91
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I don't like to blame people, but:

Murray: I love bargain shopping. I think every team should be looking to grab a couple bargain guys every year to see if they can 'turn it around' for your team. That being said, I don't think that RELYING on those kinds of turn arounds is a good strategy.

RC: Needs to stop hating on the youngsters and give them a chance to play. Needs to stop relying on dump and chase (which they seem to be trying to do so far... just not effectively). Needs to work on motivating the players to keep skating and work on systems to break into the opponent's zone.

Its a fault of Murray, RC, and the players. We need some speed to break into the zone and the battle plan to enable that.

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10-14-2010, 02:05 AM
  #92
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I have a few thoughts on this.

First off, some of you really need to get past Paul Martin. There's no evidence that he ever had any interest in signing with the Ducks. None. If you had to choose between the Ducks and 29 other teams, I'm sure the Ducks would be low on your likely destination list. That's just reality. The Pens are a contender, the Ducks aren't. So, the next suggestion is you overpay him. Even if you did over offer him, there's still no evidence that he would sign with Anaheim. But, let's say he did. Where would that leave the team? How many Norris Trophies has he won? Thats right, none. Yet, you wanna pay him like he has. So, if you pay Martin 7 or 8 million, the Ducks would have to sacrifice salary since they have an internal budget. So, Sutton and Mara are probably not signed and who knows how the roster would be affected for years to come. Does that make the team that much better? I don't think so. I like Paul Martin but he's not Niedermayer or Pronger. He can't singlehandedly carry a defense corps. No different than how Lubo and Lydman can't. He's a good Top 4 dman, but not the best out there. He was just the best of this UFA cycle. I don't think Martin, Lubo, Fowler, Brookbank, Sbisa and Mikkelson is any better of a top 6 than what we currently have.

Second, what would firing Bob Murray right now actually accomplish? I'm not a Murray fan, he's made many peculiar moves but getting rid of him at this instant wouldn't change the players on the ice. All it would do is mean that the Ducks have to pay salary to a guy who's sitting at home. No new GM is going to come in and change the roster. The budget doesn't allow it and not many teams are looking to trade, especially since the season just started. You would solve nothing. In reality, all that would happen is that David McNab would probably take over for the rest of the season. That's it and he's not going to be able to wave a wand and bring Sidney Crosby and Ovechkin to the Ducks. Nobody can. At the end of the season, when more GM candidates will be available and things can change, then we can talk. At least let Murray get a new coach in for a little bit and see if things improve. He's never gotten that chance. RC kept his job when he rallied the team in 09.

Finally we get to the coach. He's the only thing that hasn't changed over the years. Yet the results are getting worse each season. That's not necessarily the coach's fault, but it is his job. I see a team that still extremely undisciplined. I lay that blame on Carlyle. Getzlaf and Perry are still taking dumb penalties. That was fine when you had Pronger, the Niedermayers, Beauchemin, Moen, and Pahlsson to bail you out but they aren't there anymore. These players don't play smart, period. Someone has to teach them cause it's clear to me that RC hasn't. Getz can't be the captain when he hasn't figured out how to play smart. He doesn't show that in how he plays. I put that on the only NHL coach he's ever had. I'm not even going to get into systems but getting outshot 58-14 is ridiculous. i don't care how bad your team is, there's no way thats acceptable. There is still some talent on this team but it's clearly being under utilized when you can't even get 20 shots on goal a night and you struggle to hold the opposing team under 50. This is not an expansion team. And even worse, is the fact that the Ducks have had a slow start virtually every single season under RC. That's a disturbing trend. Trying to dig out of a hole year after year clearly shows that he doesn't prepare the team well during training camp. This is a recurring problem no matter who's been on the team. Something must be wrong there. The only constant has been the coach.

I don't dislike RC and I don't love Murray, but sometimes you need to shake things up and see if things get better. Right now, I feel like changing the coach is much more prudent than throwing out the GM. At least a new coach can make some changes on ice and use a new system, a new style and hopefully motivate a sad sack team. I'm not sure a new GM can do any of that.
First off, yes I think that defense would be way better then the defense we currently have.

Second, for me it's not really that we didn't get Martin, he was just an example I used. It was the lack of urgency from Murray. The guy admitted that he didn't plan on getting involved so early but did because of other GM's. That's unacceptable when your teams weakness is that big. If you're one of the few that think he could have had talks but just didn't want to admit that they weren't interested, fine that's your opinion. However, there is no way in hell I even think that's a remote possibility. The guy just was too laid back in addressing our biggest need. He also downgraded players we already had (switching Wiz for Sutton). And by the way, I think your example of signing Martin to 7 or 8 million is just stupid. No one in their right mind would pay him that. However, if we offered around 5.8, I think he would have definitely considered it.

Next we get the Mara signing. I have *****ed about this signing being the Boynton signing all over again from day 1. He once again tried signing a player past his prime in hopes of him regaining his old self. That risk hurt us severely last year and it's looking pretty god awful again.

You, like several others, keep mentioning that a GM change won't do much compared to a coaching change. I think that is thinking way to narrow minded. We are not going to compete this year. No coach is going to win a playoff series with this defense, it's that simple. We should be looking toward the future of this team. So yes, while a GM move may only have slight impact this season, it will start the process for the new GM. McNabb or whoever is brought in may only make a few small moves, but it starts the process of them building the team they want. Personally I just want to get rid of Murray because I think he's done a piss poor job for the most part.

As I've said in many other threads, it won't bother me at all if Carlyle leaves (as long as Murray goes with him). I hate his use of Sbisa and Fowler so far. Sbisa being scratched is a joke, and giving an 18 year old kid over 22 minutes continuously is unacceptable. However, if I have to choose which one I'd rather have around next year. It's Carlyle without hesitation.

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10-14-2010, 02:20 AM
  #93
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First off, yes I think that defense would be way better then the defense we currently have.

Second, for me it's not really that we didn't get Martin, he was just an example I used. It was the lack of urgency from Murray. The guy admitted that he didn't plan on getting involved so early but did because of other GM's. That's unacceptable when your teams weakness is that big. If you're one of the few that think he could have had talks but just didn't want to admit that they weren't interested, fine that's your opinion. However, there is no way in hell I even think that's a remote possibility. The guy just was too laid back in addressing our biggest need. He also downgraded players we already had (switching Wiz for Sutton). And by the way, I think your example of signing Martin to 7 or 8 million is just stupid. No one in their right mind would pay him that. However, if we offered around 5.8, I think he would have definitely considered it.

Next we get the Mara signing. I have *****ed about this signing being the Boynton signing all over again from day 1. He once again tried signing a player past his prime in hopes of him regaining his old self. That risk hurt us severely last year and it's looking pretty god awful again.

You, like several others, keep mentioning that a GM change won't do much compared to a coaching change. I think that is thinking way to narrow minded. We are not going to compete this year. No coach is going to win a playoff series with this defense, it's that simple. We should be looking toward the future of this team. So yes, while a GM move may only have slight impact this season, it will start the process for the new GM. McNabb or whoever is brought in may only make a few small moves, but it starts the process of them building the team they want. Personally I just want to get rid of Murray because I think he's done a piss poor job for the most part.

As I've said in many other threads, it won't bother me at all if Carlyle leaves (as long as Murray goes with him). I hate his use of Sbisa and Fowler so far. Sbisa being scratched is a joke, and giving an 18 year old kid over 22 minutes continuously is unacceptable. However, if I have to choose which one I'd rather have around next year. It's Carlyle without hesitation.
exactly what would you have him do with our #1 defenseman(hes sure playing like he is ours anyway)... play him for 13 minutes? you shudl be HAPPY hes getting icetime.. not unhappy..

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Old
10-14-2010, 02:25 AM
  #94
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exactly what would you have him do with our #1 defenseman(hes sure playing like he is ours anyway)... play him for 13 minutes? you shudl be HAPPY hes getting icetime.. not unhappy..
I agree with Hazy that he should be getting aroun 18 minutes a game. Don't want to put him in over his head too early.

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10-14-2010, 04:03 AM
  #95
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I agree with Hazy that he should be getting aroun 18 minutes a game. Don't want to put him in over his head too early.
He's not looking out of place atm.

I say keep giving him big minutes as long as he warrants it.

If he starts to feel some pressure bring his minutes down, no need to reduce them if he's playing so well though

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10-14-2010, 04:17 AM
  #96
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Fowler may be getting a ton of minutes, but they're managing them well. He's hardly getting any short handed minutes. They're trying to keep him from being overwhelmed and I think they're managing it well.

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10-14-2010, 10:55 AM
  #97
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He's not looking out of place atm.

I say keep giving him big minutes as long as he warrants it.

If he starts to feel some pressure bring his minutes down, no need to reduce them if he's playing so well though
I guess that's where we disagree. IMO, you don't give an 18 year old kid a ton of mintues and then just take them away if or when he "cracks". I'd rather they start him off with reasonable minutes and give him more as he improves. I just think the team is mishandling it because their focus is not on Fowler's best interest, but rather our own. Like I've been saying all along, the focus should be on Fowler's development, not the best interest for the team this season. Playing him 22+ minutes a game just because we have no better options is the wrong thing to do imo.

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10-14-2010, 11:20 AM
  #98
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I guess that's where we disagree. IMO, you don't give an 18 year old kid a ton of mintues and then just take them away if or when he "cracks". I'd rather they start him off with reasonable minutes and give him more as he improves. I just think the team is mishandling it because their focus is not on Fowler's best interest, but rather our own. Like I've been saying all along, the focus should be on Fowler's development, not the best interest for the team this season. Playing him 22+ minutes a game just because we have no better options is the wrong thing to do imo.
What constitutes reasonable minutes for you? For me they would be what the player can handle, while playing at a high level and won't overwhelm him. And so what has Fowler done to show that he can't handle those minutes at a high level and not be overwhelmed? He has shown he deserves those minutes and should keep getting them.

Lowering Fowler to 18 minutes a game will do nothing but give him more time to adjust, but he has shown us he doesn't need more time to adjust. So it will just slow down his development rather then help it.

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10-14-2010, 12:56 PM
  #99
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Playing him 22+ minutes a game just because we have no better options is the wrong thing to do imo.
He's not having that much ice time because we have no options. He gets time because he can handle it.

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10-24-2010, 12:37 AM
  #100
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Tick tock. If we lose horribly to Dallas think something happens?

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