HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Washington/Chicago proposal

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-08-2004, 11:38 PM
  #26
borro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
Only at HF can someone make a comparison to an all-star defenseman a negative.

As a Hawks fan, I'd be THRILLED if Barker turned into a Gonchar type of player. God forbid the Hawks have a d-man that can score 20g, 50a and quarterback the powerplay! Oh the horror! I think that Gonchar is the leading goal scorer from the blueline over the last 4 year, and is at least average in his own zone. Does a guy have to be guaranteed a Norris trophy to not get denigrated on the board?
I like Gonchar but he is what he is. A great offensive talent. A solid plus guy with an aggressive stay at home type partner. Sometimes makes poor decisons. His game has a decided lack of edge. This hinders his ability to do all a great dman does. Just my opinion. The Caps had him. Where did they get? Not even the playoffs. The dynamic wasnt working for us.

borro is offline  
Old
06-08-2004, 11:44 PM
  #27
borro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
I mean this with all due respect, but please check your attitude before making your trademark condescending posts. They're below you.
I don't think I have "trademark condescending posts" I simply disagree with certain things and don't cave in as others do. I think Barker has the potential to be a one way dman. That is not a top pick in my estimation. I take Phaneuf or Coburn way before him. No way he is worth 4 #1's. It's just overpayment. Especially for a team with many needs.

borro is offline  
Old
06-08-2004, 11:45 PM
  #28
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
I like Gonchar but he is what he is. A great offensive talent. A solid plus guy with an aggressive stay at home type partner. Sometimes makes poor decisons. His game has a decided lack of edge. This hinders his ability to do all a great dman does. Just my opinion. The Caps had him. Where did they get? Not even the playoffs. The dynamic wasnt working for us.
So you're blaming the Caps not making the play-off's last year on Gonchar? Just wanted to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

And some great HOF d-man also lacked "edge" (Leetch, Lidstrom, Murphy), but they were successful just the same.

I realize that Gonchar isn't Scott Stevens defensively, but he's still a difference maker. Put him with the right partner and he's great IMO.

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
06-08-2004, 11:48 PM
  #29
borro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
So you're blaming the Caps not making the play-off's last year on Gonchar? Just wanted to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

And some great HOF d-man also lacked "edge" (Leetch, Lidstrom, Murphy), but they were successful just the same.

I realize that Gonchar isn't Scott Stevens defensively, but he's still a difference maker. Put him with the right partner and he's great IMO.
Isn't that kind of what I just said? The Caps need more of a Scott Stevens, imho.

borro is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 08:13 AM
  #30
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Well, I'm aware of the fact that Chicago wants quality at this point, but before Sutherby's off season w/injury and under Cassidy, he had won the Young Stars MVP, fought the likes of Foote at 19/20, and was valuable enough for Edmonton's GM to ask for a Sutherby-Niinimaa deal, which McPhee rejected. He's been compared to Peca/Mellanby by Caps brass, and is probably captain material.
Quick Question...

If Mcphee refused to do a Sutherby for Niinimaa deal, why would he be willing to do a Sutherby + picks for Barker deal?

I think if Barker reaches his full potential he would be just about as good of a defensman as Niinimaa. But who knows if he will ever reach his full potential?

And you also said that "He's been compared to Peca/Mellanby by Caps brass, and is probably captain material". So why would the Caps trade that away? It seems like a valuable piece to a rebuilding teams puzzle if you ask me.

Jasper17 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 09:22 AM
  #31
EroCaps
Registered User
 
EroCaps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 14,597
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17
Quick Question...

If Mcphee refused to do a Sutherby for Niinimaa deal, why would he be willing to do a Sutherby + picks for Barker deal?

I think if Barker reaches his full potential he would be just about as good of a defensman as Niinimaa. But who knows if he will ever reach his full potential?

And you also said that "He's been compared to Peca/Mellanby by Caps brass, and is probably captain material". So why would the Caps trade that away? It seems like a valuable piece to a rebuilding teams puzzle if you ask me.
Good question. If for no other reason than if McPhee likes anything more than big western Canadian forwards, it's big western Canadian defenseman. Barker also fills a need. It's all hypothetical though, I doubt Chicago moves the pick. I'm basing this on an assertion by the Caps color guy, who spoke w/McPhee, and isn't really known to make wild assertions.

EroCaps is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 11:17 AM
  #32
Hawkalyzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 1,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Good question. If for no other reason than if McPhee likes anything more than big western Canadian forwards, it's big western Canadian defenseman. Barker also fills a need. It's all hypothetical though, I doubt Chicago moves the pick. I'm basing this on an assertion by the Caps color guy, who spoke w/McPhee, and isn't really known to make wild assertions.

its possible that we could trade the pick, but i dont think we need 2nd rounders or more low 1st round picks

it would have to be for something of good quality, which is why i think its fairly unlikely that we do move the pick

Hawkalyzer is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 11:40 AM
  #33
Captain Conservative
Registered User
 
Captain Conservative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: My Blue Heaven
Country: Spain
Posts: 3,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17
Quick Question...

If Mcphee refused to do a Sutherby for Niinimaa deal, why would he be willing to do a Sutherby + picks for Barker deal?

I think if Barker reaches his full potential he would be just about as good of a defensman as Niinimaa. But who knows if he will ever reach his full potential?

And you also said that "He's been compared to Peca/Mellanby by Caps brass, and is probably captain material". So why would the Caps trade that away? It seems like a valuable piece to a rebuilding teams puzzle if you ask me.

Barkers ceiling is higher than Niinimaa. I think a good comparison would be a less intimidating Pronger.

Captain Conservative is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 12:57 PM
  #34
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
Isn't that kind of what I just said? The Caps need more of a Scott Stevens, imho.
Well I didn't want to put words in your mouth.

That being said, I think the Caps needed 4 more NHL caliber defenseman last year, and a heart transplant. Gonchar wasn't the issue. He can only play 25 minutes a game. It was the other 35 minutes that was the big problem.

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 02:36 PM
  #35
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 40,967
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Conservative
Barkers ceiling is higher than Niinimaa. I think a good comparison would be a less intimidating Pronger.
Niinimaa is a top 2/top 4 22:00 defenseman with good ability at both ends of the ice. he is fully developed and a known quantity. History of drafting players at this age shows that Barker is 3 or 4 times more likely to bust out than to ever reach Niinimaa's level, much less surpass him.

it was in the paper this week....2 in 10 drafted players never make it..at all. most years half of the first round never gets more than a cup of coffee before they bust out.

Fedotenko and two 2nd round picks for the draft pick to take Pitkanen.
and undrafted free agent with 16 and 17 goals in his two nhl seasons for the 4th pick overall. even a first round pick is a roll of the dice...a crap shoot.

txpd is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 04:09 PM
  #36
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Conservative
Barkers ceiling is higher than Niinimaa. I think a good comparison would be a less intimidating Pronger.
Barker is not a Chris Pronger. He is a big 6'3 offensive defesnman. He isn't a dominat force in his own zone. The Niinama comparison is much better.

Jasper17 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 05:39 PM
  #37
borro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17
Barker is not a Chris Pronger. He is a big 6'3 offensive defesnman. He isn't a dominat force in his own zone. The Niinama comparison is much better.
The Leetch comparison is even better. He could develop. He isnt there now. Top 5 picks need to be there now.

borro is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 05:45 PM
  #38
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
The Leetch comparison is even better. He could develop. He isnt there now. Top 5 picks need to be there now.
Are you saying that every top 5 pick should be ready to immediately step into the NHL? If that is what you're saying, I think you're WAY off base. Many of these guys get rushed into the NHL, and I think it hurts their development. Especially goalies and defenseman. They really need to play big minutes in juniors/minor polishing skills and playing in every situation, not being the back-up or playing 10 minutes a night as a 6/7 type of player.

Big thing with most 18 YO's is that they need to add the strength to be able to handle the big guys down low.

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 07:09 PM
  #39
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
The Leetch comparison is even better. He could develop. He isnt there now. Top 5 picks need to be there now.
I don't think the Leetch comparison is a good one either.

If I was to compare Barker to NHL players, I would compare him to guys like Niinama, Brewer, Fischer or a better version of Poti.

All of those guys are big, good skating defensman with good offensive skills. But they are not as good of skaters as the Leetch's and Niedermayer's of the world.

Jasper17 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 07:11 PM
  #40
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
Are you saying that every top 5 pick should be ready to immediately step into the NHL? If that is what you're saying, I think you're WAY off base. Many of these guys get rushed into the NHL, and I think it hurts their development. Especially goalies and defenseman. They really need to play big minutes in juniors/minor polishing skills and playing in every situation, not being the back-up or playing 10 minutes a night as a 6/7 type of player.

Big thing with most 18 YO's is that they need to add the strength to be able to handle the big guys down low.
I agree, i think 2 years after a player is drafted is when you can start to expect the player to be ready. I am not saying every player should be ready 2 years after they are drafted because everyone develops differently.

But for a top 5 pick, I think that is a good time table.

Jasper17 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 07:53 PM
  #41
zetterberg40
Registered User
 
zetterberg40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 21,251
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to zetterberg40
if the capitals pulled this one off...



ovechkin and Barker?

ew...... thats sick, they'd basically automatically win the draft regardless of what other teams draft...

zetterberg40 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 09:22 PM
  #42
capman29
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 256
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
if the capitals pulled this one off...



ovechkin and Barker?

ew...... thats sick, they'd basically automatically win the draft regardless of what other teams draft...
That would for a cap stand point but I do not think any of the top 6 picks will be traded unless someone puts together a great package but I do not se that happening. If tere are trades they will come after the top 6 are gone and the value to trade down better <

capman29 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 09:34 PM
  #43
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by capman29
That would for a cap stand point but I do not think any of the top 6 picks will be traded unless someone puts together a great package but I do not se that happening. If tere are trades they will come after the top 6 are gone and the value to trade down better <
I agree

Jasper17 is offline  
Old
06-09-2004, 09:36 PM
  #44
capman29
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 256
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17
I agree
Thank you

capman29 is offline  
Old
06-10-2004, 12:26 AM
  #45
Captain Conservative
Registered User
 
Captain Conservative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: My Blue Heaven
Country: Spain
Posts: 3,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
Niinimaa is a top 2/top 4 22:00 defenseman with good ability at both ends of the ice. he is fully developed and a known quantity. History of drafting players at this age shows that Barker is 3 or 4 times more likely to bust out than to ever reach Niinimaa's level, much less surpass him.

it was in the paper this week....2 in 10 drafted players never make it..at all. most years half of the first round never gets more than a cup of coffee before they bust out.

Fedotenko and two 2nd round picks for the draft pick to take Pitkanen.
and undrafted free agent with 16 and 17 goals in his two nhl seasons for the 4th pick overall. even a first round pick is a roll of the dice...a crap shoot.

Thanks for the lecture. Could you please point out where I said anything about Barker being a surefire NHLer? I don't remember saying anything like that.

What I said is that I consider Barker to have a higher ceiling than Niinimaa. I think Niinimaa is a damn fine 3rd defenseman, but I don't think he has the raw offensive skill of Barker. Everything i've read about barker indicates he could be evolve into a number 1 defenseman.

Captain Conservative is offline  
Old
06-10-2004, 07:11 AM
  #46
PSUhockey34
Registered User
 
PSUhockey34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 5,041
vCash: 500
I have no doubts that McPhee is trying hard to accquire Barker, but he's defnintely not going to overpay for the guy...outside of Morrisonn and Eminger, there are no sure fire top 3-5 dmen, yonkman cant stay healthy enough and cutta is still up in the air on whether or not he makes it...he would round out the top 4 and its not to difficult to accquire a stay at home dmen that could cover for him...the coaching staff did pretty good in improving Gonchar's defensive game and its a shame we traded him away just as he really put both ends of his game together and I honestly dont think he's peaked yet in how more dominate he can be...some people are missing the boat entirely on why Barker is rated as high he is, his offensive game is a level above every other dmen in this year's draft and thats what makes him special...dont draft him to be a two way dmen, draft him to bring offensive from the blueline and just be pleasently suprised if he actually develops a respectable defensive side to his game when he's in the NHL

With that being said, I wouldnt trade our later 1st and 2nd round picks to get him, or atleast not trade the majority of them away anyways...if the caps were drafting at 3rd then Id stay take him

As for Suts, 2 years ago I would've been against trading him...whe compared to other foward prospects in the system right now, he's expendable...both Laich and Gordon have the potential to be just as good defensively as Suts...he's held in high regard with management so its hard to guage how untouchable he actually is

PSUhockey34 is offline  
Old
06-10-2004, 07:53 AM
  #47
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM3owner
I have no doubts that McPhee is trying hard to accquire Barker, but he's defnintely not going to overpay for the guy...outside of Morrisonn and Eminger, there are no sure fire top 3-5 dmen, yonkman cant stay healthy enough and cutta is still up in the air on whether or not he makes it...he would round out the top 4 and its not to difficult to accquire a stay at home dmen that could cover for him...the coaching staff did pretty good in improving Gonchar's defensive game and its a shame we traded him away just as he really put both ends of his game together and I honestly dont think he's peaked yet in how more dominate he can be...some people are missing the boat entirely on why Barker is rated as high he is, his offensive game is a level above every other dmen in this year's draft and thats what makes him special...dont draft him to be a two way dmen, draft him to bring offensive from the blueline and just be pleasently suprised if he actually develops a respectable defensive side to his game when he's in the NHL

With that being said, I wouldnt trade our later 1st and 2nd round picks to get him, or atleast not trade the majority of them away anyways...if the caps were drafting at 3rd then Id stay take him

As for Suts, 2 years ago I would've been against trading him...whe compared to other foward prospects in the system right now, he's expendable...both Laich and Gordon have the potential to be just as good defensively as Suts...he's held in high regard with management so its hard to guage how untouchable he actually is
I disagree with that. I think Laich and Gordon are going to be solid NHL players. But if people expect these guys to dominate games they are mistaken. Sutherby has the phyiscal tools and ability to be a great player. He's a Primeau type guy. He isn't going to light up the score board, but he is going to be great in his defensive zone which isn't as glamorous, but just as important.

Gordon is a solid player. But because of his size i think he is better suited for wing. The Caps want to be big down the middle, and Gordon doesn't fit that. As for Laich, I think he is a perfect 4th line guy on a very good hockey team. Simular to Draper in Detroit. He is a hard working guy who would be a great penalty killer, yet at the same time he has enough skill to play on a 3rd line if someone gets hurt.


Last edited by Jasper17: 06-10-2004 at 07:57 AM.
Jasper17 is offline  
Old
06-10-2004, 08:40 AM
  #48
stardog
Registered User
 
stardog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
Sure what part of 4 for 1 in a weak draft is a bad deal do you have difficulty understanding? It's not like Barker is a panacea. He is a poor man's Gonchar. If that was our answer, we would have won already. We need more aggressive dmen, A Valabik or Thelen. If you rebuild a house with a faulty foundation and keep the same foundation, you collapse again. Barker is way overrated in my book. No, I dont even want him.
You wouldn't want him? I doubt that if he were handed to your team on a silver platter you would turn him down.
And while offensivley he is a poor mans Gonchar, he is much more physical than Gonchar could ever hope to be.

stardog is offline  
Old
06-10-2004, 08:45 AM
  #49
stardog
Registered User
 
stardog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
I like Gonchar but he is what he is. A great offensive talent. A solid plus guy with an aggressive stay at home type partner. Sometimes makes poor decisons. His game has a decided lack of edge. This hinders his ability to do all a great dman does. Just my opinion. The Caps had him. Where did they get? Not even the playoffs. The dynamic wasnt working for us.
Last time I checked the Caps made the Stanley Cup finals with Gonchar on the team.
Just because the team as a whole suffered this season it doesn't mean it was Gonchar's fault. Look at thier winning record with Gonchar in the line up over his career and you will get a much more accurate view on his worth instead of basing it on ONE year.

stardog is offline  
Old
06-10-2004, 08:48 AM
  #50
stardog
Registered User
 
stardog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkalyzer
its possible that we could trade the pick, but i dont think we need 2nd rounders or more low 1st round picks

it would have to be for something of good quality, which is why i think its fairly unlikely that we do move the pick
I hear Tampa is trying to move Fedatenko for the 4th overall pick. Maybe they would do the same for the 3rd.

stardog is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:04 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.