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Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?

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Old
10-13-2010, 10:34 AM
  #26
Whileee
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Because Westgate is a Sports & Entertainment Park/Mall. People visit & spend all year on event & non-event days to checkout the home of the Coyotes, UofP Stadium etc. You pay into the CFD for the cache', or not.



OK, see your point. Ya, it'd sure enough be sufficient, so would winning the Lottery, and about the same odds as Glendale ever seeing that kind of money from Moyes's Estate.

An no, the COG cant turn over its taxes to the CFD for disbursement to the Coyotes. I have to disagree with you over a 2-3% surcharge on goods & services over & above the existing 3% tax. Do you really think that paying, say, $2.75-$3.75 on a $50 purchase would be detrimental/devastating?.
My point isn't so much that it would be devastating to the local businesses, but why they would want to turn over all of that additional revenue to the Coyotes' owners? In any case, I suppose it is all speculation, and perhaps local businesses would be happy to do this. I just thought it was interesting that we have heard that the loss of the Coyotes and their fans would devastate the Westgate businesses, but based on sales tax figures it seems as though Coyotes' fans per se likely contribute very little of that.

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10-13-2010, 10:36 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
their first game looks to be close to a sell out...maybe 1000 tickets left.

http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/1E...4&minorcatid=9

second game several thousand but not as bad as it could be...

http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/1E...4&minorcatid=9
5 of the first 8 home games are on Saturday nights, and another game is on a Friday night - so there should be good attendance figures, as we've heard the excuse before about poor attendance due to the game being in the middle of the week.

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10-13-2010, 10:42 AM
  #28
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Do you really think that paying, say, $2.75-$3.75 on a $50 purchase would be detrimental/devastating?.
Without a strong perceived value-add? In a country where people drive for miles to hit a Sam's Club?

Oh yeah.

The mall would immediately turn into "that place charges more", and then it'll be well and truly ****.

 
Old
10-13-2010, 10:50 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
My point isn't so much that it would be devastating to the local businesses, but why they would want to turn over all of that additional revenue to the Coyotes' owners? In any case, I suppose it is all speculation, and perhaps local businesses would be happy to do this. I just thought it was interesting that we have heard that the loss of the Coyotes and their fans would devastate the Westgate businesses, but based on sales tax figures it seems as though Coyotes' fans per se likely contribute very little of that.
Ya, its a debatable point, speculative. I tend to side with the intangibles, the elan of sharing real estate with pro franchises/major venues, thinking that's worth much to trade & traffic 365 days of the year. Sales & branding aspects through association visa-vie proximity.

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10-13-2010, 10:53 AM
  #30
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There's another interesting bit of information referenced in this Arizona Republic article (http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...orts-debt.html).

Over the past 5 1/2 years (between December 2003 and June 2010), the Coyotes paid a total of just under $23 million to Glendale under the AMULA (http://www.azcentral.com/ic/communit...a-payments.pdf). Therefore, their agreement to fund up to $25 million in operating losses for the NHL this year would essentially return all of the revenues that they have received from the Coyotes for the past 5 1/2 years.

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10-13-2010, 10:54 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
My point isn't so much that it would be devastating to the local businesses, but why they would want to turn over all of that additional revenue to the Coyotes' owners? In any case, I suppose it is all speculation, and perhaps local businesses would be happy to do this. I just thought it was interesting that we have heard that the loss of the Coyotes and their fans would devastate the Westgate businesses, but based on sales tax figures it seems as though Coyotes' fans per se likely contribute very little of that.
this. If I were a local business owner there, you can take it to the bank that I would fight this surcharge at every step. Here is what this is saying, not only are we going to slap a surcharge on it, but we are going to give the money to a failing hockey team in the desert.....

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10-13-2010, 10:55 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
My point isn't so much that it would be devastating to the local businesses, but why they would want to turn over all of that additional revenue to the Coyotes' owners? In any case, I suppose it is all speculation, and perhaps local businesses would be happy to do this. I just thought it was interesting that we have heard that the loss of the Coyotes and their fans would devastate the Westgate businesses, but based on sales tax figures it seems as though Coyotes' fans per se likely contribute very little of that.
I think that your $400 mm in revenue number might be off. I have a feeling that that $13 mm sales tax number from the AZ Central number was at combined rate of closer to 10%.

http://www.glendaleaz.com/taxandlice...edtaxtable.pdf

If this is the case, the total amount of commerce done by Westgate merchants is probably closer to about $130 mm.

edit: It would also mean that Glendale's take is far less than $13 mm.


Last edited by OthmarAmmann: 10-13-2010 at 11:14 AM.
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10-13-2010, 11:15 AM
  #33
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I think that your $400 mm in revenue number might be off. I have a feeling that that $13 mm sales tax number from the AZ Central number was at combined rate of closer to 10%.

http://www.glendaleaz.com/taxandlice...edtaxtable.pdf

If this is the case, the total amount of commerce done by Westgate merchants is probably closer to about $130 mm.
You might be right, and the reporting was erroneous. I took the figures from this quote, and assumed that they referred only to sales tax revenue:

Quote:
The dining and shopping largely spurred by sports games around Westgate brought $12.8 million in sales-tax revenues in 11 months last fiscal year.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...#ixzz12FwRGUeo
Even if it is that low, and my optimistic assumptions about the amount of revenue derived from Coyotes fans are correct, it would still not amount to much more than 10% of the business. Killion suggests the per capita expenditures should be half of what I assumed.

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10-13-2010, 11:20 AM
  #34
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I took the figures from this quote, and assumed that they referred only to sales tax revenue:
Given the relative costs of shopping/eating and going to a Coyotes game, is it fair to ask if perhaps shopping/eating is the primary purpose, and that drives attendance at the games, rather than the other way 'round?

 
Old
10-13-2010, 11:22 AM
  #35
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Without a strong perceived value-add? In a country where people drive for miles to hit a Sam's Club? Oh yeah. The mall would immediately turn into "that place charges more", and then it'll be well and truly ****.
Most of the merchants & service providers at Westgate are specialty retailers, though their are a couple of chains in the food sector. Its not a destination Mall for family or everyday shopping. Its an outdoor strolling center, its not a West Edmonton, Yorkdale or Fairview Point Claire indoor mega mall. A Sams or big box retailer, supermarket etc likely wouldnt even be allowed to lease within Westgate Mall itself but if it were to move into the area, I wouldnt imagine they'd wanna be opt'ing into the CFD, and I do agree that likely many merchants will have a hard time, as many are already, if they add another 3% to their bottom line. Honestly, it'll be a tough call.

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10-13-2010, 11:39 AM
  #36
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I mean, if sales tax is higher in the district and parking is $10+ then I would almost expect a restaurant/bar owner outside the district to rent a bus and shuttle his or her patrons into the game.

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10-13-2010, 11:50 AM
  #37
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I mean, if sales tax is higher in the district and parking is $10+ then I would almost expect a restaurant/bar owner outside the district to rent a bus and shuttle his or her patrons into the game.
Chartering a 38 passenger bus for p/up & return from Scottsdale or Downtown's going to cost about $350, app. $10 a head. Where's the savings?. So you pay an extra 25 cents for a beer, whats the big deal?.

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10-13-2010, 12:44 PM
  #38
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Ummm, yeah, the price will be much lower than the sum of all the payments. Think Mortgage. And if there is a risk of default on the bonds or a downgrade because the Yotes leaves, the price of those bonds are going to drop like the Cubs in September. People will be begging to get rid of them.
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Somehow they're rated Aa2/AA+ - I'd think that means there is support to pay regardless of yotes, no?
Unfortunately, I can't find the link I had to the original MPC 2003 Series A & B Offering Documents - but they were at least partially secured by CoG revenue streams (other than arena revenues).

OK - at least I found this back in Part II.

Their payment is secured by a lein on "Unrestricted Excise Taxes" which includes all excise, transaction privilege, franchise, and income taxes collected by the city and CoG's share of state personal & business income taxes and sales taxes distributed by the State to municipalities.

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10-13-2010, 04:05 PM
  #39
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To add a little bit of stress to the team in terms of their money woes, the discounts for tickets have already started beginning with the second game of the season, skipping the Sunday night game and then picking up again with the last game of the month against Tampa Bay...

https://oss.ticketmaster.com/html/gr...=131&group=757

20-30% off as I understand it but I have no idea on there being limitations on the number of tickets or anything like that as I wasn't going to bother signing up for it. Any Coyote fans that can shed some light on the deal and what it entails would be great.

I wonder if this is a one time only thing to try to draw in new fans to come back and pay full fare or if they're going to keep doing it through the season to try to meet the attendance goals for their revenue sharing money?

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10-13-2010, 04:07 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
their first game looks to be close to a sell out...maybe 1000 tickets left.

http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/1E...4&minorcatid=9

second game several thousand but not as bad as it could be...

http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/1E...4&minorcatid=9
If either of these games are close to a sellout I think that woud be a huge success for the Glendale hockey community. It's undeniable that all the arrows are pointing in the direction of the team leaving. There is no owner (other than the NHL) and there has been no concrete news of anything remotely suggesting the team will stay in Glendale for many weeks. Under those circumstances, a near-sellout crowd for the home opener would be an important statement of community support for the Coyotes. I would be happy to see the team move to Winnipeg, but I would be even happier to see it draw strong fan support and stay in Glendale. However, I'm just not very optomistic about the chances of it staying put.

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10-13-2010, 04:12 PM
  #41
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If either of these games are close to a sellout I think that woud be a huge success for the Glendale hockey community. It's undeniable that all the arrows are pointing in the direction of the team leaving. There is no owner (other than the NHL) and there has been no concrete news of anything remotely suggesting the team will stay in Glendale for many weeks. Under those circumstances, a near-sellout crowd for the home opener would be an important statement of community support for the Coyotes. I would be happy to see the team move to Winnipeg, but I would be even happier to see it draw strong fan support and stay in Glendale. However, I'm just not very optomistic about the chances of it staying put.
They soldout the home opener last year. I'd expect the same this year.

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10-13-2010, 04:17 PM
  #42
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It's undeniable that all the arrows are pointing in the direction of the team leaving. .
Hi boys, I'm back to say hello. The only arrows that I see pointed are those pointed from the bows of a very boisterous Winnipeg crowd. The only acknowledged movement in the situation is the placing of a 25 million dollar deposit in escrow. That is a very big and expensive arrow and it points to the team staying.

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10-13-2010, 04:18 PM
  #43
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Hi boys, I'm back to say hello. The only arrows that I see pointed are those pointed from the bows of a very boisterous Winnipeg crowd. The only acknowledged movement in the situation is the placing of a 25 million dollar deposit in escrow. That is a very big and expensive arrow and it points to the team staying.
Scottrocks58... you make a good "point".

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10-13-2010, 04:19 PM
  #44
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They soldout the home opener last year. I'd expect the same this year.
Last year the opener had heavily discounted tickets, prices are higher for the opening game than regular games this year as it is a premium game, as of 12:30 yesterday I made it 1497 seats remaining, 1145 downstairs, 126 upstairs and 226 in the comerica club.

only a handful of $270.00 seats left, a few 120.00 but the majority are the $82.00 seats, in the comerica club seats are $99.00

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10-13-2010, 04:25 PM
  #45
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Last year the opener had heavily discounted tickets, prices are higher for the opening game than regular games this year as it is a premium game, as of 12:30 yesterday I made it 1497 seats remaining, 1145 downstairs, 126 upstairs and 226 in the comerica club.

only a handful of $270.00 seats left, a few 120.00 but the majority are the $82.00 seats, in the comerica club seats are $99.00
Is that number from a Coyote official or from doing the math from Ticketmaster? Does it include numbers from the tickets that are held back for season packs and mini-packs or is that just the amount of singles that are available? Not questioning that it will likely be a sellout or close to it, just curious as to what the number actually means...

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10-13-2010, 04:26 PM
  #46
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It was just my calculations from ticketmaster

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10-13-2010, 04:33 PM
  #47
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this. If I were a local business owner there, you can take it to the bank that I would fight this surcharge at every step. Here is what this is saying, not only are we going to slap a surcharge on it, but we are going to give the money to a failing hockey team in the desert.....
Business that feel that the Yotes fans are their major customers may want to contribute to a CFD; however, businesses that do not have Yotes fans as customers would likely be apposed to the CFD would eventually close up shop and move.

If the rent (including the CFD) is higher than the market, businesses will close and relocate to cheaper digs. I suspect that very few business owners setup a business plan contingent on a NHL team being near by. It is a nice bonus; however, it should not be the deciding factor.

Everyone is worried about the business; however; most businesses are mobile once their lease expires

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10-13-2010, 04:38 PM
  #48
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having been down to get my partial season tickets last thursday at lunch time, Westgate is DEAD when a sporting event is not going on, restaurants were all mostly empty. On the other hand, when the Coyotes play all of the stores and restaurants are packed, lines out the door.

I know that the owners of many of the stores had said previously if the Coyotes leave they will go to court to be released from there leases as the anchor tenant would be gone.

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10-13-2010, 04:41 PM
  #49
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Last year the opener had heavily discounted tickets, prices are higher for the opening game than regular games this year as it is a premium game, as of 12:30 yesterday I made it 1497 seats remaining, 1145 downstairs, 126 upstairs and 226 in the comerica club.

only a handful of $270.00 seats left, a few 120.00 but the majority are the $82.00 seats, in the comerica club seats are $99.00

Sounds good; however, how many of the seats have been sold to Wings fans? Is the percentage of fans cheering for the visitors higher in Glendale then other markets? I could be wrong; however, isn't it a premium game because there are a lot of Wings fans in Arizona?

I understand that the game is on TSN; therefore, I will have to watch it to see how the fans react to Yotes vs Wings goals.

Just a few rhetorical questions

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10-13-2010, 04:45 PM
  #50
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there will be a lot of Wings fans, however, they are still hockey fans that live in Arizona, if the team leaves they won't get to watch their wings anymore lets face it, sold tickets are sold tickets. The argument is always made that no one likes hockey in Arizona, that's just not the case. The problem is winning them over.

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