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Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?

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Old
10-13-2010, 04:48 PM
  #51
Confucius
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Originally Posted by gollybass View Post
having been down to get my partial season tickets last thursday at lunch time, Westgate is DEAD when a sporting event is not going on, restaurants were all mostly empty. On the other hand, when the Coyotes play all of the stores and restaurants are packed, lines out the door.

I know that the owners of many of the stores had said previously if the Coyotes leave they will go to court to be released from there leases as the anchor tenant would be gone.
I've read where millions of people go through Westgate annually...

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10-13-2010, 04:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by gollybass View Post
having been down to get my partial season tickets last thursday at lunch time, Westgate is DEAD when a sporting event is not going on, restaurants were all mostly empty. On the other hand, when the Coyotes play all of the stores and restaurants are packed, lines out the door.

I know that the owners of many of the stores had said previously if the Coyotes leave they will go to court to be released from there leases as the anchor tenant would be gone.
They may also go to court if the CFD is installed at Westgate. As mentioned before, the businesses can just move to a new location once their lease is up, the losers will be Ellman and the COG.

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10-13-2010, 04:57 PM
  #53
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not if the CFD is contingent on the businesses agreeing to it, but heck its all hypothetical

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10-13-2010, 05:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by gollybass View Post
there will be a lot of Wings fans, however, they are still hockey fans that live in Arizona, if the team leaves they won't get to watch their wings anymore lets face it, sold tickets are sold tickets. The argument is always made that no one likes hockey in Arizona, that's just not the case. The problem is winning them over.
I agree seats sold are seats sold; however, you cannot survive on only the premium games selling out. As you mentioned in your post, how do you get the fans to come to support the Yotes on a regular basis.

For the record, I have not subscribed to the theory that there are no hockey fans in Arizona; however, due to the makeup of the population there may be hockey fans for the opposing teams then for the Yotes for the moment.

That being said, string together several winning seasons and I suspect that that would change somewhat.

The Yotes had an impressive season last year and they look to continue this year; ;however, due to the BK, did the winning season(s) come too late to save the team? Only time will tell.

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10-13-2010, 05:07 PM
  #55
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Currently 19 vacancies of the 53 business spots located in Westgate. Would the future tenants have a choice about a CFD if it was inplace before they moved in?

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10-13-2010, 05:09 PM
  #56
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well, simply put... if they didnt want to pay it... they wouldnt take a commercial space there

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10-13-2010, 05:12 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
Currently 19 vacancies of the 53 business spots located in Westgate. Would the future tenants have a choice about a CFD if it was inplace before they moved in?
I would say no.

My office building was part of a business district when i purchased it and I was automatically included. I suspect that this would be the case in Westgate.

Keep in mind that any future business would know up front about the CFD; therefore, by signing the lease would mean that they agree to pay it. If you don't want to pay do not sign the lease.

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10-13-2010, 05:21 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by gollybass View Post
having been down to get my partial season tickets last thursday at lunch time, Westgate is DEAD when a sporting event is not going on, restaurants were all mostly empty. On the other hand, when the Coyotes play all of the stores and restaurants are packed, lines out the door.

I know that the owners of many of the stores had said previously if the Coyotes leave they will go to court to be released from there leases as the anchor tenant would be gone.
Something is not tallying for me. The City of Glendale is reporting that they get about $13 million in sales tax revenue from Westgate and are sales taxes. As I have indicated earlier, even with very optimistic estimates, less than 10% of that would come from Coyotes fans. In fact, I would venture to estimate that there are as many or more patrons at Westgate for the movie multiplex than for the Coyotes in a year. Have you been to Westgate on a Friday or Saturday night when the Coyotes are not playing? Is it empty then?

Based on your experience, what percentage of ALL Coyotes fans do you think patronize other Westgate businesses on a game night? On average, how much would they spend per person? Are they mostly visiting restaurants and bars, or also the many specialty retail outlets? Would they shop in the many specialty retail shops before the games?

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10-13-2010, 05:31 PM
  #59
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Friday and saturday nights are busy, as far as how many Coyotes fans go and use the shops all I know is that all of the places have lines out the door on game nights. Obviously, COG would have better numbers on any of this than us.

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10-13-2010, 05:31 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post

Would the future tenants have a choice about a CFD if it was in place before they moved in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post

I would say no. My office building was part of a business district when i purchased it and I was automatically included. I suspect that this would be the case in Westgate.
Surely their would be a distinction between a company leasing commercial space with contributions to a Business District from a merchant/service provider renting retail space & enjoining in the CFD no?. If thats the case, then both DeVry & Humana along with the rest of the commercial space tenants at Westgate would also be subject to the CFD, imposed by force to current lease holders by the buildings owner. Not exactly "voluntary" and very likely good cause to break ones lease & move. Now, if your leasing out one of the 19 vacant shops & include a "luxury tax" based on sales or square footage, and the tenant agrees' to pay it, then fine. But I dont see how Ellman can do much more than "request" that the existing lease holders contribute to the CFD. Wouldnt it just be easier to eliminate Ellman & the commercial tenants from the equation & have the merchants voluntarily opt in or not & remit their funds directly to the CFD quarterly?.

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10-13-2010, 05:39 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post

Have you been to Westgate on a Friday or Saturday night when the Coyotes are not playing? Is it empty then?

Based on your experience, what percentage of ALL Coyotes fans do you think patronize other Westgate businesses on a game night? On average, how much would they spend per person? Are they mostly visiting restaurants and bars, or also the many specialty retail outlets? Would they shop in the many specialty retail shops before the games?
Mostly 20 somethings partying it up on weekends Whileee. You might want to try the Westgate Merchants Association for answers to your other questions, if indeed market surveys' & studies have even been done, available on-line, which I rather doubt.

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10-13-2010, 05:57 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by gollybass View Post
Friday and saturday nights are busy, as far as how many Coyotes fans go and use the shops all I know is that all of the places have lines out the door on game nights. Obviously, COG would have better numbers on any of this than us.
I guess that in the end, the question isn't whether or not Coyotes fans contribute revenue to the Westgate businesses, but rather how much they contribute in relation to what the businesses are being asked to contribute to the CFD. So, for example, if they are asked to contribute $5 million annually to the CFD, then they would need to make a profit of at least $15 for each Coyotes patron that visits their businesses to make it worthwhile. That is based on $15 of profit for each of at least 7,500 Coyotes fans on a game day. Some have suggested that instead of paying that much annually, the CFD could be financed through a bond sale or some such instrument. In that case, wouldn't any contemplation of an out clause for the Coyotes owners create big problems, since there would be a risk that the CFD would be obligated to pay back the bond holders long after the Coyotes had been relocated? Another issue relates to other pro franchises in the area. If the Coyotes owners benefit from CFD revenues on the premise that their fans contribute to the local businesses, then why not extend the same revenue options to the Cardinals, for example?

My point in all of this is that the Coyotes franchise, its owners, and ultimately its fans have to do the heavy lifting here, and depending on other local businesses to contribute substantially to help you purchase the team and pay operating losses might be overly optimistic. Actually, I think the value of retaining the Coyotes for Glendale extends well beyond the Westgate businesses per se, so I could see them making the case to subsidize the team more directly, rather than relying on local businesses to an extent that probably extends well beyond the economic benefit that those businesses derive from the Coyotes. But that approach seems to be ruled out on legal and political grounds.

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10-13-2010, 06:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
I would say no.

My office building was part of a business district when i purchased it and I was automatically included. I suspect that this would be the case in Westgate.

Keep in mind that any future business would know up front about the CFD; therefore, by signing the lease would mean that they agree to pay it. If you don't want to pay do not sign the lease.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that participating in the CFD was voluntary.

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10-13-2010, 07:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that participating in the CFD was voluntary.
IIRC..... it's voluntary for the property owner. A business that leases property within a CFD would be subject to whatever the landlord wants.

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10-13-2010, 07:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
IIRC..... it's voluntary for the property owner. A business that leases property within a CFD would be subject to whatever the landlord wants.
A new tenant can always lease elsewhere if the cost at Westgate is too high.

Since other commercial space is not directly affected by the CFD, part of any levies could be borne by the tenant (if the CFD makes Westgate space more expensive than other commercial space); part could be borne by the landlord (if it has to reduce its net rent keep the gross rent competitive with other commercial space); and part by the consumer (if any part of the levies can be passed on in the form of higher overall prices for goods and services).

If I lived in Glendale and were looking for big-ticket items like furniture, electronics and automobiles, I wouldn't care to shop at Westgate if it had an additional levy, no matter how small, unless there were some other competitive advantage to shopping there. If I wanted a snack before a game, the levy wouldn't make any difference to me, but everyone is different.

How much is ultimately paid by the tenants, how much is absorbed by the landlord in the form of reduced rents, and how much is passed on to the consumer would sure be hard to tell after-the-fact, let alone in advance. However, it sounds like the cost of any CFD would be shared by almost everyone connected with Westgate. This must give the major stakeholders cause for some pretty careful consideration as to just how valuable the hockey team is to the surrounding businesses.

If it were truly voluntary, there would be no need for a CFD at all. The stakeholders could just privately fund the hockey team, and their returns would even be higher. It has to be compulsory to conscript freeloaders who would reap the benefits without contributions. That's the whole idea of a tax.

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Old
10-13-2010, 09:00 PM
  #66
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There are as many Coyote threads as there are Final Fantasy games


edit: wait, we're still one off from XIV.

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10-13-2010, 09:30 PM
  #67
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There are as many Coyote threads as there are Final Fantasy games


edit: wait, we're still one off from XIV.
But these are just the post-bankruptcy Coyote threads.

The previous bankruptcy Coyote threads went up to part XXII.

So this is really part XXXVI - take that Final Fantasy .

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10-13-2010, 09:50 PM
  #68
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But these are just the post-bankruptcy Coyote threads.

The previous bankruptcy Coyote threads went up to part XXII.

So this is really part XXXVI - take that Final Fantasy .


Wow... so much of our lives that we could never get back. 35,075 posts made (not including the 10,000 or so deleted posts ). Anyone know the average time it takes to make a post so we can calculate the actual effect on time this could equate to?

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10-13-2010, 10:09 PM
  #69
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Hi boys, I'm back to say hello. The only arrows that I see pointed are those pointed from the bows of a very boisterous Winnipeg crowd. The only acknowledged movement in the situation is the placing of a 25 million dollar deposit in escrow. That is a very big and expensive arrow and it points to the team staying.
Which $25 mil in escrow are you referring, the confirmed by multiple sources CoG for the NHL or the state by CoG that Hulzs put $25 mil in escrow, yet no one else confirmed it or the purpose of the alleged $25 mil escrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by gollybass View Post
there will be a lot of Wings fans, however, they are still hockey fans that live in Arizona, if the team leaves they won't get to watch their wings anymore lets face it, sold tickets are sold tickets. The argument is always made that no one likes hockey in Arizona, that's just not the case. The problem is winning them over.
A ticket sold for next to nothing means nothing.

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10-13-2010, 10:26 PM
  #70
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Good luck to them. I hope Yotes fans enjoy their season.

Winnipeg will eventually get a team, whether it's from Glendale or some other underperforming market.

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10-13-2010, 10:44 PM
  #71
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Which $25 mil in escrow are you referring, the confirmed by multiple sources CoG for the NHL or the state by CoG that Hulzs put $25 mil in escrow, yet no one else confirmed it or the purpose of the alleged $25 mil escrow
Huls's 25 large. I am under the opinion that the deposit was actually done for the NHL to start negotiations with them, although no one has brought that up. 25 million is a lot of money to put into an escrow account. It's not like putting a $200 deposit on a car to hold it.

Before that escrow was deposited I was actually thinking that the Coyotes might leave. With that escrow I now believe that the NHL can work it out with Hulsizer and the Coyotes will stay.

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10-14-2010, 12:13 AM
  #72
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Huls's 25 large. I am under the opinion that the deposit was actually done for the NHL to start negotiations with them, although no one has brought that up. 25 million is a lot of money to put into an escrow account. It's not like putting a $200 deposit on a car to hold it.

Before that escrow was deposited I was actually thinking that the Coyotes might leave. With that escrow I now believe that the NHL can work it out with Hulsizer and the Coyotes will stay.
Perhaps someone can clarify for me, is putting money in an escrow account the same as making a down payment, or is it just a way of saying "look, I have $25M"? If it's the latter, I'm not sure why that would change your opinion so decisively.

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10-14-2010, 01:30 AM
  #73
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IIRC..... it's voluntary for the property owner. A business that leases property within a CFD would be subject to whatever the landlord wants.
Yes, if I recall correctly, any CFD contribution is up to the property owner -- i.e., Elman. I'm not sure the property owner could pass that on to the tenants without their agreement, unless such additional special 'tax' or surcharge is allowed for under the existing leases.

GHOST

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10-14-2010, 07:24 AM
  #74
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Yes, if I recall correctly, any CFD contribution is up to the property owner -- i.e., Elman. I'm not sure the property owner could pass that on to the tenants without their agreement, unless such additional special 'tax' or surcharge is allowed for under the existing leases.

GHOST
So, as far as I can tell there are about 35 businesses at Westgate now. If the CFD was levying about $5 million per year on current tenants then it would average to about $142,000 extra in charges for each tenant per year. Obviously, some would pay more and some would pay less. There are a number of businesses that probably wouldn't be affected at all if the Coyotes left, such as the largest tenant (the multiplex movie theater), or various smaller specialty retailers. The main impact would presumably be on the restaurants, which would lose an influx of Coyotes fans on about 40 nights a year.

So, the businesses would need to assess whether having the Coyotes fans in the Westgate vicinity 40 times a year is worth that much. Ellman needs to decide if he can impose that sort of additional levy on current and future businesses and still be competitive.

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10-14-2010, 07:57 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Huls's 25 large. I am under the opinion that the deposit was actually done for the NHL to start negotiations with them, although no one has brought that up. 25 million is a lot of money to put into an escrow account. It's not like putting a $200 deposit on a car to hold it.

Before that escrow was deposited I was actually thinking that the Coyotes might leave. With that escrow I now believe that the NHL can work it out with Hulsizer and the Coyotes will stay.
Welcome back! I agree with you that chances are better than even that Hulsizer will be able to pull this off and the Coyotes will stay in Glendale. I wouldn't be too sure however that the $25M in escrow was deposited for the NHL. A week after it was reported that it was deposited, Gary Bettman was still saying things like this:

"The City of Glendale continues to meet with interested groups to see if they can reach an agreement that would enable somebody to believe that they could make it work in Phoenix from an economic standpoint. We continue to maintain a vigilance in terms of the sale process but the primary effort is being made by the City of Glendale at this point and they remain optimistic that they'll get somebody who'll come to closure with them and somebody who would be suitable and appropriate to be an NHL owner."

I would think the $25M was deposited for the CoG's benefit to satisfy them that they weren't going to be wasting more time. Apparently negotiating first and asking for proof of financial capacity later didn't work out so well for them the first time around.

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