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I'm not sure the problem is heart/laziness, talent, or being soft...I think it is...

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01-30-2010, 10:16 PM
  #1
Inferno
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I'm not sure the problem is heart/laziness, talent, or being soft...I think it is...

Hockey Intelligence.

Seriously, look up and down this roster, how many smart players are on this team? how many players can read a play and do the right thing with the puck? How many of these guys are braindead in terms of hockey IQ? It's insane...I mean seriously, how many of these guys would you say even have average NHL hockey IQ? I'll be generous here (not including goalies here of course)

Gaborik
Prospal
Drury
Callahan
Anisimov

Staal
MDZ (at least in the offensive zone, and hes VERY young)

7 players? maybe? I'm probably being generous on Callahan and Drury, who I think are probably slightly below average in terms of hockey intelligence (both work hard, callahan is all heart, but I still dont think hes all that intelligent of a player)

Personally, I think this is what's wrong with this team. When we had Straka, Jagr, Nylander, and Shanahan, I dont think it was their talent so much as their intelligence that we relied on. They seemed to know where to put the puck, when to come off for a change, and they were quick to point out to their teammates when they did something wrong. But man, these guys out there just seem stupid as a doorknob.

when, imho, the smartest guy on your team, by a country mile, is a defensive defenseman...you're going to have some problems.

This team can't get Stepan here quick enough, guy thinks the game twice as good as any of our forwards do as it stands now (sans Gaborik)

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01-30-2010, 10:20 PM
  #2
NYRSchrute217
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You're overthinking it. (No pun intended) The problem is Sather who brings in these idiots.

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01-30-2010, 10:21 PM
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HAPPY HOUR
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The problem is all of the above plus a lack of hockey intelligence.

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01-30-2010, 10:21 PM
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NYR Viper
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It is skill but with skill most times comes that "hockey IQ". It is a lack of creativity and the lack of skill to carry it out. The new NHL is all about allowing skilled players to use that skill, the Rangers lack what the league is designed for.

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01-30-2010, 10:24 PM
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It's part of it but that goes hand in hand with the players just not being very good.

Players who are good have hockey intelligence.

It's obvious we don't have very many good players. So it would make sense that their hockey intelligence isn't that great. If it were they'd be better players.

Gaborik is our best but he's one man.

Staal is a solid defensive d-man but he has been a huge disappointment this year. Torts really screwed him up with wanting him to jump up into the play. Not saying it's Torts' fault but that whole mindset really screwed with Staal. He could never find a balance.

Prospal to me is our best all around player. But the guy is old and not a a superior talent.

What can you do? The roster just isn't very good. Some things never change.

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01-30-2010, 10:24 PM
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Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
It is skill but with skill most times comes that "hockey IQ". It is a lack of creativity and the lack of skill to carry it out. The new NHL is all about allowing skilled players to use that skill, the Rangers lack what the league is designed for.
i see a distinct difference between skill, and hockey IQ.

Dubinsky, Lisin, Higgins, all have tremendous hockey skill. But I would say Higgins and Dubinsky have average<-->below average hockey IQ, and Lisin is somewhere between turnip<-->toilet brush.

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01-30-2010, 10:25 PM
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NYRSchrute217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
It is skill but with skill most times comes that "hockey IQ". It is a lack of creativity and the lack of skill to carry it out. The new NHL is all about allowing skilled players to use that skill, the Rangers lack what the league is designed for.
I like the old NHL more. I miss seeing teams beat the **** out of each other every night. More exciting, less teeth

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01-30-2010, 10:26 PM
  #8
NYR Viper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i see a distinct difference between skill, and hockey IQ.

Dubinsky, Lisin, Higgins, all have tremendous hockey skill. But I would say Higgins and Dubinsky have average<-->below average hockey IQ, and Lisin is somewhere between turnip<-->toilet brush.
I disagree. Higgins and Dubinsky have an average amount of skill, however they also have very little hockey IQ which makes them "grinders" as they cant think the game quick enough nor can they carry out those thoughts if they had them.

Lisin has an elite skill, speed but everything else is average and his hockey IQ is about average.

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01-30-2010, 10:26 PM
  #9
NYR Viper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
I like the old NHL more. I miss seeing teams beat the **** out of each other every night. More exciting, less teeth
Should have watched the Islanders-Flyers game tonight. That was a nasty game.

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01-30-2010, 10:27 PM
  #10
NYRSchrute217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
It's part of it but that goes hand in hand with the players just not being very good.

Players who are good have hockey intelligence.

It's obvious we don't have very many good players. So it would make sense that their hockey intelligence isn't that great. If it were they'd be better players.

Gaborik is our best but he's one man.

Staal is a solid defensive d-man but he has been a huge disappointment this year. Torts really screwed him up with wanting him to jump up into the play. Not saying it's Torts' fault but that whole mindset really screwed with Staal. He could never find a balance.

Prospal to me is our best all around player. But the guy is old and not a a superior talent.

What can you do? The roster just isn't very good. Some things never change.
Exactly

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01-30-2010, 10:28 PM
  #11
NYRSchrute217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Should have watched the Islanders-Flyers game tonight. That was a nasty game.
I guess some of it is still around, but you wouldn't know it watching the Rangers play

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01-30-2010, 10:29 PM
  #12
NYR Viper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
I guess some of it is still around, but you wouldn't know it watching the Rangers play
Yeah, definitely not. So emotionless. It is depressing to watch honestly.

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01-30-2010, 10:33 PM
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I don't think Dubinsky, Lisin and Higgins have "tremendous skill".

Lisin is like bret gardner
Dubinsky does a little bit of everything but no one skill really stands out
And Higgins.......well.......never mind

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01-30-2010, 10:36 PM
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Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
I don't think Dubinsky, Lisin and Higgins have "tremendous skill".

Lisin is like bret gardner
Dubinsky does a little bit of everything but no one skill really stands out
And Higgins.......well.......never mind
by skill i mean puck handling, the ability to weave in and out of traffic, the ability to transport the puck, the ability to get hard shots on goal, etc....all 3 have the ability to do these things at a damn high level, and have shown that ability plenty of times over their careers...

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01-30-2010, 10:37 PM
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Inferno, I completely agree with you when you differentiate Hockey Skill and Hockey Sense.

For example (based on things said during the WJC) Hall has TREMENDOUS hockey skill. His skill though is not comparable to his intelligence (like he'll try to deke a player, even though if he succeeds he isn't in a position to do much, stuff like that).

There are very few people on this team that are extremely intelligent in terms of hockey, that couples with lack of hockey skill just amplifies it.

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01-30-2010, 10:44 PM
  #16
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hockey IQ is just some icing on a cake. We don't have the cake. I'd define the ingredients missing from our cake as:

1. a physical shut down defenseman
2. a number one center
3. any other scoring players other than M.Gaborik

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01-30-2010, 10:48 PM
  #17
Inferno
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Originally Posted by MorrisWanchuk View Post
hockey IQ is just some icing on a cake. We don't have the cake. I'd define the ingredients missing from our cake as:

1. a physical shut down defenseman
2. a number one center
3. any other scoring players other than M.Gaborik
i think were not on the same page here...youre talking about player types, im talking about an across the board hockey IQ defecit.

it's the same thing as having an across the board slow team, or an across the board team with weak limp noodle shots, or an across the board team with absolutely no physical ability whatsoever.

a lot of the aspects we are looking for are present, we have a shut down defenseman, physicality is overrated in terms of going for the big hit. Staal is about as good as anyone in shutting down the opposition in 1 on 1 situations.

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01-30-2010, 11:00 PM
  #18
MorrisWanchuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i think were not on the same page here...youre talking about player types, im talking about an across the board hockey IQ defecit.

it's the same thing as having an across the board slow team, or an across the board team with weak limp noodle shots, or an across the board team with absolutely no physical ability whatsoever.

a lot of the aspects we are looking for are present, we have a shut down defenseman, physicality is overrated in terms of going for the big hit. Staal is about as good as anyone in shutting down the opposition in 1 on 1 situations.
i see your point, but i don't think having hockey iq across the board will make up for these holes that we have. i agree Staal is a good shutdown guy - i just wish we'd see more physicality from him. I don't see a Pronger type letting some of the stuff that goes on in front of hank's face happen.

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01-30-2010, 11:10 PM
  #19
Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorrisWanchuk View Post
i see your point, but i don't think having hockey iq across the board will make up for these holes that we have. i agree Staal is a good shutdown guy - i just wish we'd see more physicality from him. I don't see a Pronger type letting some of the stuff that goes on in front of hank's face happen.
yeah, ive never really seen a Pronger in the kid...i've seen a Larry Robinson in him since the first day I saw him put on a Rangers sweater...definitely not the offensive upside of Robinson in his prime, but that style of player.

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01-30-2010, 11:23 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Hockey Intelligence.

Seriously, look up and down this roster, how many smart players are on this team? how many players can read a play and do the right thing with the puck? How many of these guys are braindead in terms of hockey IQ? It's insane...I mean seriously, how many of these guys would you say even have average NHL hockey IQ? I'll be generous here (not including goalies here of course)

Gaborik
Prospal
Drury
Callahan
Anisimov

Staal
MDZ (at least in the offensive zone, and hes VERY young)

7 players? maybe? I'm probably being generous on Callahan and Drury, who I think are probably slightly below average in terms of hockey intelligence (both work hard, callahan is all heart, but I still dont think hes all that intelligent of a player)

Personally, I think this is what's wrong with this team. When we had Straka, Jagr, Nylander, and Shanahan, I dont think it was their talent so much as their intelligence that we relied on. They seemed to know where to put the puck, when to come off for a change, and they were quick to point out to their teammates when they did something wrong. But man, these guys out there just seem stupid as a doorknob.

when, imho, the smartest guy on your team, by a country mile, is a defensive defenseman...you're going to have some problems.

This team can't get Stepan here quick enough, guy thinks the game twice as good as any of our forwards do as it stands now (sans Gaborik)
You know what, I agree.

But you forgot to mention the coach lacks it too. So not only does this team construction suck, but I dont think they're gonna learn much under Mr. Motivation, either. A truly disasterous outlook.

Oh, but I also feel like effort is becoming a real issue too, which is probably stemming from problems on a more personal level.

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Old
01-31-2010, 12:02 AM
  #21
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I think "hockey intelligence," to a large extent, is related to the coach setting up a system and the players understanding it.

Look at the Coyotes. If any of us had looked at that team last season we would probably have felt that they didn't have much "hockey intelligence." However, in comes Tippett, and now basically the same set of players are playing a tight defensive system with a quick transitional game that they are having success with.

I bet if you were to put some of our players on other teams they would look a lot more intelligent than they do right now. The reverse applies for if you were to take "intelligent players" from some other teams and put them on the Rangers.

Let's face it. The Rangers look like they have no idea what they're doing out there. They have no comprehension of any type of defensive system and teams with good breakouts are clearing our "aggressive" forecheck and creating odd-man rushes with frightening regularity. Our D men pinch at the worst times but let's not forget that on this team you "get yelled at for skating backwards." Our forwards can't gain the blue line and when they manage to do that they have no idea where the puck is supposed to go afterwards.

Gaborik does well because he would do well on any team. That's because he has an excess of skill and talent. It's everyone else on the roster, guys who should be able to produce at at least a middling level, that are playing sub-par. That's because these are the guys that need to be placed in a position to succeed. You can't just throw guys like Drury, Higgins, Avery, Callahan, Anisimov, Dubinsky etc. out there and tell them "hey, go score a lot of goals."

At some point the coaching staff needs to stop saying "well... we had a lot of chances but we just couldn't score" and needs to start saying "well, we let Doan get by us on a 1 on 1 situation" or "well, we let Boedker score on a 3 on 1" or "well, we gave up about 10 odd man rushes and 5 breakaways."

Bad defense = the players looking "unintelligent." It's as simple as that.

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Old
01-31-2010, 12:23 AM
  #22
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Soft

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Old
01-31-2010, 12:24 AM
  #23
I left the gate open
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banks3rdLineCenter View Post
Bad defense = the players looking "unintelligent." It's as simple as that.
I don't think it's as simple as that. Hockey intelligence involves anticipating how a given play will unfold and understanding which responses will result in which consequences. The difference between playing against a player with a high hockey IQ and a low hockey IQ is akin to playing chess against a player that's able to see ten moves ahead versus one who sees two moves ahead.

John Tavares is a good example of player that often relies on his high hockey IQ. Unlike Ovechkin, say, he doesn't score most of his goals by powering through the neutral zone, deking several players, spinning around and shooting from mid-air. Present slump aside, he scores most of his goals by anticipating where the puck is going to go well before anyone else does. So he goes there and nobody picks him up, since nobody else expects the puck to go there. Then the puck comes to him and he scores what looks like an easy goal.

Anyway, I think the OP is on to something. I believe the Islanders' rebuilding plan centrally involves building around hockey intelligence (I see the move back to draft Bailey as a manifestation of this plan). The Rangers would, I think, benefit from management putting more stock into this trait in evaluating players.

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01-31-2010, 12:29 AM
  #24
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What ever happened to finding open ice, getting low hard shots on net, and sending a couple players to the net? Most of the time, these things will result in at least a couple goals a game unless the opposing goalie is standing on his head.

This team has no concept of how to run a consistent offense. One night they look like a solid offensive unit and the next they are dumping and chasing the whole time. More recently though, we've looked like the dump and chase team that cannot play well on the boards.

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Old
01-31-2010, 12:37 AM
  #25
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Lack of hockey IQ has a lot to do with it.

They shoot when they aren't supposed to. They overthink and make too many passes. They don't know how to enter the offensive zone, nor do they know how to cycle effectively.

Too many players on this team have poor vision and are bad at anticipating the play. Sadly, I don't think this is something that can be taught. You either have hockey sense or you don't. And while hard work is admirable, at the end of the day, a player needs to possess some modicum of hockey intelligence to be effective.

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