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Kennedy & Talbot expendable?

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Old
10-17-2010, 01:04 PM
  #76
JTG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
UFAs in 2011/12
-Adams
-Asham
-Comrie
-Dupuis
-Godard
-Rupp


RFAs in 2011/12
-Kennedy
-Letestu
-Talbot

Leaving:
Kunitz-Crosby-xxx
Tangradi-Staal-Malkin
Cooke-xxx-xxx
xxx-xxx-xxx
Bolded part is what makes decisions fairly easy for me...

Max is a UFA too

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Old
10-17-2010, 01:35 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
You guys seem to be implying it's an extra $250K here or there that makes a guy expendable or not. That's close to being chump change, even in the salary cap era.

What makes a guy expendable is how easily he can be replaced with other players on the market. Guys like Crosby and Malkin are untouchable because they're almost impossible to replace value-wise, even when replacing with 2 players of (combined) equal cap value. TK, Talbot... all these guys we talk about on the bottom six (+ Dupuis, 1st liner extraordinaire) are easy to replace (assuming there was a team interested) at or near their salary value.
Who is implying that he is expendable only because of the salary? That is one of many reasons someone becomes expendable. And when you are up against the cap, $250K is anything but chump change. It might be the difference between keeping Tabgradi up or having to send him down when everyone gets healthy!!

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10-17-2010, 01:39 PM
  #78
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Just sounded a lot like you were saying "I like Talbot, and if he were at 750K instead of $1M he wouldn't be expendable." Which I would disagree with, because we are not in any sort of desperate cap situation right now. If you're going to take the cap hit track to argue someone is not coming close to their value and therefore hurting the team's ability to acquire someone useful, the only real arguments right now are Kunitz (who I am usually a defender of) and Fleury (ditto).

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10-17-2010, 02:03 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
Just sounded a lot like you were saying "I like Talbot, and if he were at 750K instead of $1M he wouldn't be expendable." Which I would disagree with, because we are not in any sort of desperate cap situation right now. If you're going to take the cap hit track to argue someone is not coming close to their value and therefore hurting the team's ability to acquire someone useful, the only real arguments right now are Kunitz (who I am usually a defender of) and Fleury (ditto).
Maybe not desperate but not comfortable either. When Staal comes back we lose the allowance we are allowed to be above the cap and somebody will have to go. If we keep all of our one-wayers than Tangradi will have to go down, if I am understanding where we are against the cap. That is where looking at salary comes into my thinking, after value to team on the ice which is first consideration. Correct me if I am wrong and I could be.

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10-17-2010, 02:07 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
UFAs in 2011/12
-Adams
-Asham
-Comrie
-Dupuis
-Godard
-Rupp

RFAs in 2011/12
-Kennedy
-Letestu
-Talbot

Leaving:
Kunitz-Crosby-xxx
Tangradi-Staal-Malkin
Cooke-xxx-xxx
xxx-xxx-xxx
I'd pretty much let all our UFA's walk, but I'd probably put more consideration into Asham, depending on how he performs for us this season. I think we have enough bottom 6 potential down in WBS to effectively replace most these guys.

As for our RFA's, I think re-signing TK and Letestu should be no-brainers. I'd only look into keeping Talbot if he'd be willing to take a paycut, which i doubt he would be.

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10-17-2010, 02:24 PM
  #81
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Pretty much the worst-timed thread ever, considering how well TK has started the season.

If you can't see how much his speed and tenacity disrupt opposition possession and breakout (something he does better than anyone else on the team, save Staal), there's not much hope for you. On top of that, TK's shown more patience with the puck to curl and dish to the late trailer, something he hasn't always done.

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10-17-2010, 02:50 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcquaticBirdMan66 View Post
I'd pretty much let all our UFA's walk, but I'd probably put more consideration into Asham, depending on how he performs for us this season. I think we have enough bottom 6 potential down in WBS to effectively replace most these guys.
Pretty much agree with this. They are so interchangeable that it's not worth re-signing them when guys on the farm can do as good a job for less.

And if a club isn't quite comfortable with having that many AHL grads manning the bottom six, every summer there are guys like Asham or Comrie or Brendan Morrison available for less than $1 million to plug those holes with some veteran experience.

The bottom six is the last thing this club needs to worry about.

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10-18-2010, 09:57 AM
  #83
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This is why Max Talbot is not expentable....he just belongs here
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.ht...id=DL|PIT|home

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10-18-2010, 10:01 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcquaticBirdMan66 View Post
I'd pretty much let all our UFA's walk, but I'd probably put more consideration into Asham, depending on how he performs for us this season. I think we have enough bottom 6 potential down in WBS to effectively replace most these guys.

As for our RFA's, I think re-signing TK and Letestu should be no-brainers. I'd only look into keeping Talbot if he'd be willing to take a paycut, which i doubt he would be.
I agree with what you're suggesting here for the most part, although I still don't think it would be a big deal to lose TK if we get a viable return as part of a multi-asset trade or a decent draft pick in 2012 (since the late rounds in 2011 are not supposed to be good AFAIK). OTOH if you have to cut someone loose (because you can't trade) AND Tangradi is making strides / making the team better, then you cut a cheap UFA-to-be loose because you're probably going to lose them anyway and none of those guys save for Asham (maybe) are likely to be game changers (and I don't mean Bands who Redefined Rock!). Trade him for a draft pick, waive him, whatever. This too shall pass.

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10-18-2010, 10:07 AM
  #85
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Next year:

Kunitz Crosby XXX
Tangradi Staal Malkin
Cooke Letestu Kennedy
Jeffrey Talbot XXX
Johnson/Vitale

Re-sign Talbot for less Id think.
Extend the RFAs Letestu and TK.
Bring up younger guys, re-sign Godard or maybe someone like Kenopka who can play more regularly and more roles then target a winger in FA.

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Old
10-18-2010, 10:12 AM
  #86
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I think Ray is going to do with wingers next summer what he did with D this summer. He's going to go out and find a couple $3-4M wingers (i.e. decent scorers and playmakers), and fill in the rest with WBS guys and the cheaper elements of the current team. Who knows, maybe even TK.

Not sure if Talbot would take a pay cut or not. I kind of think he might because since his Cup winning goals he hasn't done squat when healthy. He doesn't really have any leverage to demand that someone pay him $1.5M+ or something like that. Plus I think he does like it here. Either way, people will see that whether we fill out the bottom six with old men or rookies, if we add two legit wingers to our top 6, it won't make a damn bit of difference: we'll be a MUCH better team than we are now... with or without TK or Talbot or Adams.

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10-18-2010, 10:19 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
I think Ray is going to do with wingers next summer what he did with D this summer. He's going to go out and find a couple $3-4M wingers (i.e. decent scorers and playmakers), and fill in the rest with WBS guys and the cheaper elements of the current team. Who knows, maybe even TK.

Not sure if Talbot would take a pay cut or not. I kind of think he might because since his Cup winning goals he hasn't done squat when healthy. He doesn't really have any leverage to demand that someone pay him $1.5M+ or something like that. Plus I think he does like it here. Either way, people will see that whether we fill out the bottom six with old men or rookies, if we add two legit wingers to our top 6, it won't make a damn bit of difference: we'll be a MUCH better team than we are now... with or without TK or Talbot or Adams.
Thats what I was thinking with Talbot but I could be wrong.
I could also see him going to Toronto or Montreal where its just a pressure cooker and he can feed off of all of that attention. Or Atlanta some team where their trying to build a reputation of being tough to play against. But I would kinda like to see Shero sign him for like 4 years at under a million. He gets gauranteed money he wouldnt get elsewhere and we get a manageble caphit.
Either way we'll see.

I agree about the wingers and theres some decent ones out there (depending on whos not extended) who arent at the tail end of thier career.
Vrbata, Fleischman, Moulson, Meittenen, Upshall, Laich, Zherdev, Leino, J Jokinen, Prucha, Justin Williams and of course my (never gonna happen) dream David Backes.

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10-18-2010, 10:21 AM
  #88
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Hell, how about we take a few of the Caps' players off their hands next summer, right? That team will have cap issues for the next 10 years. How would this look to you:

Tangradi - Sid - Fleischmann
Jeffrey - Laich - Malkin
Cooke - Staal - Asham
WBS - Letestu - TK or Adams or WBS
Godard (so the pro-goon lobby doesn't lose their minds)

Now looking at that would it REALLY matter whether that bottom 3 were Letestu + 2WBS vs. having TK in there? Do you really think our team would suffer? Point I'm trying to make is, it's what we have on the Top 6 that matters most, not what we have on the wings on the Bottom six, save for Matt Cooke maybe. Notice also I took Kunitz out of there to be fair (a guy I usually defend who has been suspect of late and makes $3M+).

[Or swap Jeffrey and Letestu... either could work IMO.]


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 10-18-2010 at 10:26 AM.
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10-18-2010, 10:23 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regard View Post
Next year:

Kunitz Crosby XXX
Tangradi Staal Malkin
Cooke Letestu Kennedy
Jeffrey Talbot XXX
Johnson/Vitale

Re-sign Talbot for less Id think.
Extend the RFAs Letestu and TK.
Bring up younger guys, re-sign Godard or maybe someone like Kenopka who can play more regularly and more roles then target a winger in FA.
I like where your head is at...although I think Jeffrey is a top 9.

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10-18-2010, 10:26 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
Hell, how about we take a few of the Caps' players off their hands next summer, right? That team will have cap issues for the next 10 years. How would this look to you:

Tangradi - Sid - Fleischmann
Jeffrey - Laich - Malkin
Cooke - Staal - Asham
WBS - Letestu - TK or Adams or WBS
Godard (so the pro-goon lobby doesn't lose their minds)

Now looking at that would it REALLY matter whether that bottom 3 were Letestu + 2WBS vs. having TK in there? Do you really think our team would suffer? Point I'm trying to make is, it's what we have on the Top 6 that matters most, not what we have on the wings on the Bottom six, save for Matt Cooke maybe.
I get your point and I agree. Id prefer to keep TK this year(unless he can be used in a sweet trade:as in a deadline rental for a younger player we can actually keep) but next year with Letestu and Jeffrey I dont think it will matter much.

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10-18-2010, 10:29 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
I think Ray is going to do with wingers next summer what he did with D this summer. He's going to go out and find a couple $3-4M wingers (i.e. decent scorers and playmakers), and fill in the rest with WBS guys and the cheaper elements of the current team. Who knows, maybe even TK.
Unless the cap increases dramatically, how exactly is he supposed to do that when all the players we will supposedly be letting go are cheap?

Going by the present cap, absent a real surprise like trading away Fleury or Staal, we are looking at 7.5 million dollars to fill out the roster with just 14 players signed. That's not a problem if we're going to get the same pedigree of players in, but beyond that.... nah, can't do it.

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10-18-2010, 10:32 AM
  #92
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I agree Kunitz is suspect. Even though I usually defend him Ive suggested trading him for a similarly paid winger with one less year on his contract just to make our offseason completly open to rebuild the top 6.
Thats just one scenario:

Laich Crosby Vrbata(RH shot for PP?)
Tangradi Staal Malkin
Cooke Letestu Kennedy
Jeffrey Kenopka Talbot
Johnson

It doesnt help that Capgeek's calculator is still down!! Arrghh.


Last edited by regard: 10-18-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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10-18-2010, 10:44 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Unless the cap increases dramatically, how exactly is he supposed to do that when all the players we will supposedly be letting go are cheap?

For starters both Kunitz and Dupuis would have to go, and probably a couple of the others among Rupp, Adams, Talbot, TK, Asham, depending on what they all want for money. Point is, as noted in my earlier post there will be guys like Laich and Fleischmann coming into the FA pool most likely, who will be somewhere around that $3M range, and we fit them in FIRST, and then fit in all the bottom 6 pieces with guys from WBS like Jeffrey. Meanwhile Tangradi and Letestu will still be cheap too, Staal can go back to 3rd line C. There will be ways to make it work.

The main point is, when basically 6-8 of our grinder types [are all UFA (including [trading] Kunitz and maybe Dupuis)], we will have a lot of money to work with, and presumably also a nice 1-2M cap bump (conservatively). You find $5-7M worth of FA wing talent (whatever that number is), then you fill in the rest with whatever rookies and old guys are available because on the bottom six as long as you have decent C, it just doesn't matter that much when the rest of the team is balanced.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 10-18-2010 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Clarified points about FA
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10-18-2010, 10:52 AM
  #94
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Kunitz still has one more year left. You might know that in which case I misinterpreted what you said.

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10-18-2010, 11:04 AM
  #95
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Yah sorry to confuse things; didn't mean to add Kunitz into that FA comment but the point is he'd have to go for sure to follow the plan I was talking about. Whether one of those mythical wingers would come in as part of his trade or not is subject to debate but I'm slacking off here at the home office this morning so I have to get back to it. Will check back later.

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10-18-2010, 11:05 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
For starters both Kunitz and Dupuis would have to go, and probably a couple of the others among Rupp, Adams, Talbot, TK, Asham, depending on what they all want for money. Point is, as noted in my earlier post there will be guys like Laich and Fleischmann coming into the FA pool most likely, who will be somewhere around that $3M range, and we fit them in FIRST, and then fit in all the bottom 6 pieces with guys from WBS like Jeffrey. Meanwhile Tangradi and Letestu will still be cheap too, Staal can go back to 3rd line C. There will be ways to make it work.

The main point is, when basically 6-8 of our grinder types (including Kunitz and Dupuis) are all UFA, we will have a lot of money to work with, and presumably also a nice 1-2M cap bump (conservatively). You find $5-7M worth of FA wing talent (whatever that number is), then you fill in the rest with whatever rookies and old guys are available because on the bottom six as long as you have decent C, it just doesn't matter that much when the rest of the team is balanced.
To me the real wild card is Letestu. If he keeps playing as well as he has so far 20 & 20 isn't out of his reach. That puts him in the 2-2.3 million dollar range. That eats up most of the yearly cap increase right there.

If you really scrimp on the rest of the bottom 6 you might have 2 maybe 2.5 million to look for a winger. That won't buy a heck of a lot better than the current options on the roster.

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10-18-2010, 11:55 AM
  #97
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Kennedy isn't going anywhere if he keeps doing what he's doing. I have to assume that the coaches and front office are nothing but extremely pleased with the way he's responded to their not-so-subtle message to him before the season started that he needed to improve. The backlash against the guy was a little mysterious to me, in the first place. Anyone who has watched the team since he's been here knows what he consistently brings to the ice and why he was so limited last season. And it has nothing to do with him "sucking." When you play the type of game Kennedy does, you're going to look like ass when you have a nagging groin injury.

I've said this tons of times but that's the one and only problem with Tyler Kennedy -- he needs to stay healthy. If he can do that, he projects to be a very effective and productive bottom six player. Possibly more... seeing as how he's still pretty young and untested in a top six capacity for any significant amount of time. The fact that he'll be an RFA is icing on the cake.

Talbot, on the other hand, hasn't much impressed me for a while, now. I'll give him somewhat of a pass, since he was banged up much of last season (same as TK) and turned it on a bit in the post-season (as usual). But he's started off pretty slow, again and makes too much money for what he brings to the rink. He's a character guy, though and I've always been a huge fan. It just seems like, if push came to shove, that he'd be much more on the bubble than Kennedy. Still... tons of season left.

I'd drop Dupuis, Adams and Rupp before those two, though. Probably in that order. Godard, too... but I know that isn't realistic. I'm not as down on Rupp as others are. I think he's been alright, DB just has some sort of weird man-crush on him, right now. Still... looking at what the team has on the way through their system and the way contracts are going to shake out after this season... I think these guys are more replaceable than Kennedy or even Talbot. Truthfully, I want Dupuis off the team mostly because I just want Bylsma's security blanket taken away from him -- I actually really like the way Dupuis looks on the 3rd/4th line, most of the time. There's also his salary and the fact that he looks like he's on his way to another one of "those" seasons, though.


Last edited by BlindWillyMcHurt: 10-18-2010 at 12:18 PM.
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10-18-2010, 12:15 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
Yah sorry to confuse things; didn't mean to add Kunitz into that FA comment but the point is he'd have to go for sure to follow the plan I was talking about. Whether one of those mythical wingers would come in as part of his trade or not is subject to debate but I'm slacking off here at the home office this morning so I have to get back to it. Will check back later.
Yeah thats why I mention the "change of scenery" trade idea.
Maybe swap him for someone of similar salary with one less year:
Ryder-4
Sturm-3.5
(Though I doubt Boston wants to add salary for another year. Just examples.)
Or maybe we can trade him for our deadline rental and keep our other assets.
Brunette or Gagne if either team feels they would benifit from having another year of a good player.(And a chance to extend him if he fits well into thier system/rebuilding.)

Then we clear all our forward salary except the big three, Cooke, and two RFAs.
Then its time to go shopping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideline
To me the real wild card is Letestu. If he keeps playing as well as he has so far 20 & 20 isn't out of his reach. That puts him in the 2-2.3 million dollar range. That eats up most of the yearly cap increase right there.
Eh maybe. I doubt he'd get anything over 2 after just one year. Even Burrows isnt making more than 2 million.
It think its still do-able though. If Kunitz goes.
Kunitz/Rupp/Asham/Comrie salarys=2 FA winger. 3 million range
Dupuis=Letestu money
Adams salary=Jeffrey
Godard salary=Re-signed/Other enforcer

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10-18-2010, 12:27 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
To me the real wild card is Letestu. If he keeps playing as well as he has so far 20 & 20 isn't out of his reach. That puts him in the 2-2.3 million dollar range. That eats up most of the yearly cap increase right there.
I really hope they don't spend that much, especially when a guy like Setoguchi re-signed for only $1.8 million last season. Granted, that was only for a one-year deal. But still, he's got more pedigree than Letestu (including a 30 goal campaign).

It's actually signings like Letestu that will test Shero's ability as a GM to both a]secure players who are part of the Pens' plans and b]at a price that lets him improve other areas of the roster.

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10-18-2010, 12:48 PM
  #100
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Good point.
I think Letestu getting Dupuis salary is quite fair after just one year.

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