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Old
10-17-2010, 07:06 PM
  #76
Crozbar
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I suppose the only reason anyone plays center is that they happen to to be better than average faceoffs ... eh?


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10-17-2010, 07:08 PM
  #77
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I like malkin at center. That said I think he's been better than crosby so far. Crosby has the points but in overall play malkin has been better.

That said, neither have been exceptional.

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10-17-2010, 07:13 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Crozbar View Post
I suppose the only reason anyone plays center is that they happen to to be better than average face offs ... eh?
Explain to me what Malkin would have done differently the last 6 games at the C position..eh?

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10-17-2010, 07:17 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
Explain to me what Malkin would have done differently the last 6 games at the C position..eh?
Well, for starters taking faceoffs! Although ... that might not be making my case for me!

For additional starters he would have more ice to work with, get to carry the puck more, and have expanded passing options. These are all things that I would want Malkin to have -- hell even the added backchecking responsibilities because I think with the right coaching and motivation he is up to it.

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10-17-2010, 07:26 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Crozbar View Post
Well, for starters taking faceoffs! Although ... that might not be making my case for me!

For additional starters he would have more ice to work with, get to carry the puck more, and have expanded passing options. These are all things that I would want Malkin to have -- hell even the added backchecking responsibilities because I think with the right coaching and motivation he is up to it.
But that is my point, from watching it seemed to me more often than not he was carrying the puck with the other 'wingers' playing off of him. As far as the backchecking responsibilities, if he is not up to it now w/current situation, why tie him down and let someone else do it. Anyways it seems the backchecking seems to be a shared responsibility w/all wingers, is it not? He can concentrate on scoring and he is at the top of the league in shots, so I do not see much difference between him at C or W.

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10-17-2010, 07:40 PM
  #81
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Backchecking responsibilities are not limited to centers. Remember Marian Hossa? It doesn't matter where he's playing, if he can be effective on the backcheck, he will be.

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10-17-2010, 07:42 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
But that is my point, from watching it seemed to me more often than not he was carrying the puck with the other 'wingers' playing off of him. As far as the backchecking responsibilities, if he is not up to it now w/current situation, why tie him down and let someone else do it. Anyways it seems the backchecking seems to be a shared responsibility w/all wingers, is it not? He can concentrate on scoring and he is at the top of the league in shots, so I do not see much difference between him at C or W.
Generally speaking the center is supposed to lead the backcheck due to the fact he roams the ice more. He is also generally held to be the one who should get back the fastest. (yeah I know everyone is supposed to do it and Hossa is a great example, ect ...)

But you are right about Malkin so far -- he is trying to play wing like a center -- as he should, it's his game! But it's a little awkward, no? And not just for him (hey he is doing alright so far ...) but for his line mates as well.

Ideally what should happen with Malkin is this -- he comes up the center with speed dangling around defenders as necessary; he either carries the puck or dumps it; if he carries it, he roams the ice, protects the puck, dangles ect, until he can find a good shot or a solid pass. If he loses the puck, one of his wingers works to retrieve it, shoots if he has a good opportunity, else he feeds it back to Malkin.

If it's a dump in, the plan is similar, retrieve, get it to Malkin (if Malkin doesn't get it himself)... In the mold I like, both wingers can lend puck support, but one is more of a power-forward type and goes to the net, the other is more of a sniper/playmaker. (Nothing shocking here, classic setup -- the old MMS line.)

Sure this can be done with Malkin at wing, it even was for a time during the cup run (albiet with linemates that really understood how to make it work), but it is more awkward. And why? For Jordan Staal? Suffice to say, if Jordan doesn't kick royal ass as #2 center this year, with Malkin on his wing, we know who should be sent packing ... the Penguins coaching staff!

(...Staal too, if an ideal trade can be made.)

If Jordan does do really well this year, and the Pens just have to keep the same staff, then Kirk is right and Malkin should be sent packing -- much as I am a fan of the guy.

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10-17-2010, 07:54 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crozbar View Post
Suffice to say, if Jordan doesn't kick royal ass as #2 center this year, with Malkin on his wing, we know who should be sent packing ... the Penguins coaching staff!

...Staal too, if an ideal trade can be made.

If Jordan does do really well this year, and the Pens just have to keep the same staff, then Kirk is right and Malkin should be sent packing -- much as I am a fan of the guy.
You really lost me here. Staal has to kick 'royal ass' or the switch is a bust? And on top of that we should trade him because he only kicked 'common man ass'? Then you say if if does work than we should trade Malkin? If it does work than that means Malkin probably had a great year so we better break up a good thing?

I think those that do not want to see Malkin on wing in reality do not want to see Staal on L2 because he was on our most effective line L3 last year in the playoffs and you do not want to break it up!!

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10-17-2010, 07:55 PM
  #84
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CW, I don't disagree that he'll be "fine". The problem is that you can't afford to pay 8.7M per season for "fine". The problem is that, when you look at what Malkin contributes out there, based on how he is used, I think you can improve your team in terms of what the players you'd get in a trade for Malkin can do out there.
When I say "fine", I don't mean "passable". I mean "arguably the best player in the world", like he's shown before.

It's a team with an overhauled defense and new linemates for Geno at the very beginning of the season. There are both advantages and disadvantages to having Geno as a winger, but Geno's smart and talented enough to adjust accordingly. It's a feeling out process.

You look at Malkin's play over the past couple years as the result of Bylsma's misuse and Crosby-prioritizing, I think he played the best hockey of his life in the '09 Finals under Bylsma (and I don't believe that was simply the result of Therrien's residual coaching effects, either), then got a nagging injury all last season that caused him to be deserving of a reduced role. Now Bylsma's doing some tinkering to get some different looks and find out what works and what doesn't (and that's not always immediately evident to us, and the answers aren't always as easy as they may seem).

Give it time...Malkin will be great wherever he goes. The cream rises.

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10-17-2010, 07:59 PM
  #85
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What's funny is that if Malkin lined up at center for faceoffs, most wouldn't know whether he was playing center or wing.

Some because they don't have the knowledge of the schemes of hockey, and others because him playing wing looks eerily similar to him playing center.

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10-17-2010, 08:04 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
You really lost me here. Staal has to kick 'royal ass' or the switch is a bust? And on top of that we should trade him because he only kicked 'common man ass'? Then you say if if does work than we should trade Malkin? If it does work than that means Malkin probably had a great year so we better break up a good thing?

I think those that do not want to see Malkin on wing in reality do not want to see Staal on L2 because he was on our most effective line L3 last year in the playoffs and you do not want to break it up!!
You have point. There's an assumption built into what I said, which is that they both will not do good at the same time.

To put it a better way, to justify Staal (who I'm assuming isn't willing to play 3c any longer) as our 2c, displacing Malkin, he is going to have to have a pretty excellent year.

Now it is true that if Staal has a good year, for his cap hit , Malkin will also have had to do well. But, for Malkin's 8.7 million cap hit, he's going to have to do better than last year at a very minimum. An 8.7 million dollar winger should would ideally dominate ...

Assuming they both really excel, then I guess you can keep em' both and at the same roles -- but I do not think that will happen. (I'll admit it if I turn out to be wrong).

I do think that, for what Staal makes, he might have a pretty decent year. But he could do that on the wings of Malkin merely doing "okay", at which point you might need to consider what you could be doing at 8.7 million for Crosby's line or Staal and Crosby's lines.

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10-17-2010, 08:04 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
Explain to me what Malkin would have done differently the last 6 games at the C position..eh?
More penalties

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10-17-2010, 08:07 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Crozbar View Post
to justify Staal (who I'm assuming isn't willing to play 3c any longer)
Pretty big assumption there.

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10-17-2010, 08:09 PM
  #89
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Pretty big assumption there.
Granted. But that's the sense I get ... I don't think Malkin is playing second line wing because the coaching staff feel he will play better at that postion.

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10-17-2010, 08:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Crozbar View Post
Granted. But that's the sense I get ... I don't think Malkin is playing second line wing because the coaching staff feel he will play better at that postion.
Or they made the decision because regardless of where he plays, he's going to be an impact player, where the same can't be said for Staal. Staal is a center, and his skillset is pretty much what an ideal 2nd line center is. Also putting Staal on the 2nd line allows him to build on the responsibilities he already has, all the while, putting him in a position to be more offensive.

That's just my take though.

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10-17-2010, 08:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Or they made the decision because regardless of where he plays, he's going to be an impact player, where the same can't be said for Staal. Staal is a center, and his skillset is pretty much what an ideal 2nd line center is. Also putting Staal on the 2nd line allows him to build on the responsibilities he already has, all the while, putting him in a position to be more offensive.

That's just my take though.
Well, maybe, I'm skeptical about the Malkin part obviously ... but as I have said before I'm still open minded to see how it works. If it can work though, I'm not sure the current system is the one to bring it out. I guess we will have to see.

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10-17-2010, 09:09 PM
  #92
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Dan Bylsma is not going to hold Malkin back, Malkin is not treated as a secondary player, I have no idea why the hell anybody says that. Malkin plays just as much as Sid. He's going to start dominating and people are going to look stupid. His BEST hockey he ever played was played under BYLSMA and at the WING position. He'll be fine, once he gets a groove going.. no position change is going to hinder him.. he's Evgeni ****ing Malkin and as along as he's a forward he's going to score points.

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10-17-2010, 09:20 PM
  #93
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Dan Bylsma is not going to hold Malkin back, Malkin is not treated as a secondary player, I have no idea why the hell anybody says that. Malkin plays just as much as Sid. He's going to start dominating and people are going to look stupid. His BEST hockey he ever played was played under BYLSMA and at the WING position. He'll be fine, once he gets a groove going.. no position change is going to hinder him.. he's Evgeni ****ing Malkin and as along as he's a forward he's going to score points.
A-****in-men.

Would everyone rather have Malkin rip **** up in October and November or rip **** up in April, May, and hopefully June? I'm not saying that he couldn't do both but I'm not going to be concerned how he or anyone else on this team plays in the first couple weeks of the season. I'll be concerned of how they're playing in April, May and hopefully June.

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10-17-2010, 10:00 PM
  #94
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Is Malkin on some operating table?

That's the only time I would be concerned with Malkin.

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10-17-2010, 10:37 PM
  #95
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He's more than 1PPG last year (67GP/77PT)...

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10-18-2010, 07:26 AM
  #96
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When I say "fine", I don't mean "passable". I mean "arguably the best player in the world", like he's shown before.

It's a team with an overhauled defense and new linemates for Geno at the very beginning of the season. There are both advantages and disadvantages to having Geno as a winger, but Geno's smart and talented enough to adjust accordingly. It's a feeling out process.

You look at Malkin's play over the past couple years as the result of Bylsma's misuse and Crosby-prioritizing, I think he played the best hockey of his life in the '09 Finals under Bylsma (and I don't believe that was simply the result of Therrien's residual coaching effects, either), then got a nagging injury all last season that caused him to be deserving of a reduced role. Now Bylsma's doing some tinkering to get some different looks and find out what works and what doesn't (and that's not always immediately evident to us, and the answers aren't always as easy as they may seem).

Give it time...Malkin will be great wherever he goes. The cream rises.
I hope you're right, CW. BTW, question: As discussed, we have seen Geno galloping again this season, even on the wing. BUT, I'd make two points about that: One, he's not doing it as much. Two-- and this is the big one for me-- he's doing a lot of it because he wheels back with the puck and then restarts the breakout that way. Doesn't that give the defense a chance to set up? It's something that I'll keep watching. Still think adjusting the breakout-- or adding a breakout-- would help.

Also, why do so many arguments come back to "this is what happened in '09"? There really are three critical differences with '09: It was a different system. Max Talbot was the linemate, and we all know how he played in those 16 games. And, Tony Granato, not Tom Fitzgerald, is in charge of the forwards . . . compare what Fitzie did with the Feds-Geno-Max line after 2 periods against Wash in game 3 two years ago and what Granato did last year in game 5 against the Habs when Geno finally was flying again with Max and Duper (hint: Fitzie rode it, Granato flipped Dupuis and Guerin).

I suppose that we'll see here soon enough, but a critical look at how Geno has played under DB, even when healthy, tells me that, outside of 16 games-- admittedly 16 perfectly timed games-- his play has not been as good.

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10-18-2010, 07:32 AM
  #97
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Generally speaking the center is supposed to lead the backcheck due to the fact he roams the ice more. He is also generally held to be the one who should get back the fastest. (yeah I know everyone is supposed to do it and Hossa is a great example, ect ...)

But you are right about Malkin so far -- he is trying to play wing like a center -- as he should, it's his game! But it's a little awkward, no? And not just for him (hey he is doing alright so far ...) but for his line mates as well.

Ideally what should happen with Malkin is this -- he comes up the center with speed dangling around defenders as necessary; he either carries the puck or dumps it; if he carries it, he roams the ice, protects the puck, dangles ect, until he can find a good shot or a solid pass. If he loses the puck, one of his wingers works to retrieve it, shoots if he has a good opportunity, else he feeds it back to Malkin.

If it's a dump in, the plan is similar, retrieve, get it to Malkin (if Malkin doesn't get it himself)... In the mold I like, both wingers can lend puck support, but one is more of a power-forward type and goes to the net, the other is more of a sniper/playmaker. (Nothing shocking here, classic setup -- the old MMS line.)

Sure this can be done with Malkin at wing, it even was for a time during the cup run (albiet with linemates that really understood how to make it work), but it is more awkward. And why? For Jordan Staal? Suffice to say, if Jordan doesn't kick royal ass as #2 center this year, with Malkin on his wing, we know who should be sent packing ... the Penguins coaching staff!

(...Staal too, if an ideal trade can be made.)

If Jordan does do really well this year, and the Pens just have to keep the same staff, then Kirk is right and Malkin should be sent packing -- much as I am a fan of the guy.
Honestly, the situation would be best resolved in this way: Find Crosby AND Staal regular linemates. Then, rotate Malkin through the lineup, sometimes playing wing, sometimes playing center, with the big emphasis being on giving him a steady diet of consistent, heavy minutes and to exploit matchups (e.g., where it's fourth line versus fourth line but Malkin is out there). Then, use him properly on the PP. End of the day, for all of the Malkin played position X during the cup run, this is how Fitzie really used him during the cup run, where he took maybe 60% of his shifts with Feds and Max but otherwise was used throughout the lineup, getting shifts with Sid, Staal, even a guy like Adams . . .

This goes back to my theory that Malkin is a guy who's impact on a game is felt in his ability not just to have some good shifts but to control the flow of a game in the way that Mario or Jags used to and that a coach's first priority, before worrying about linemates or position, is to get him into the flow of the game. Think game 5 first two periods against the Habs . . . out there for the first shift, over 8 minutes in the first, playing on every line, and controlling the game's flow.

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10-18-2010, 07:35 AM
  #98
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Side Comment: I wonder how many teams REALLY will be interested. Not in the sense of "yeah, we'd love to have him", but in the sense of "yeah, we'll make a legitimately big offer for him". When you look at the teams with the assets to move that they'd think they can afford to move (and perhaps the cap space), is it really that big a market? First glance, I'd see LA, AVS, YOTES. Sure there are others, but those are the teams with the talent to give . . .

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10-18-2010, 08:42 AM
  #99
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Malkin´s shot hasnt been as effective that it was couple seasons back. That is the main reason for the critisism at the moment. The way he brings puck to the zone in ES or PP is so impressive, and he draws so many penalties by himself. He should use his linemates more though, he is kind of predictable now. But when Staal will return, it will be goooood.

Is he worth of 8.7? No, at least not at the moment. But Sid isnt either, but they will be eventually this season, I´m very optimistic about that.

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10-18-2010, 08:43 AM
  #100
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Really I agree with your assessment Kirk; this has always been the solution to me in terms of getting Malkin AND Staal the minutes they need -- but I don't know, it's too much line management for Db to rotate Malkin like that?

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