HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Doughty cleared to return to full hockey activity, expected to play Thursday

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-21-2010, 07:03 PM
  #126
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
And once again I'll say that along the boards a second and change happens all the time without anyone thinking anything about it... Seeing as there aren't separate finishing a hit rules for hits against the boards vs. in the open ice, these can be legitimately compared for argument's sake. If you call this a late hit, you've got to call finishing hits along the boards late hits.

This is all my opinion of course...
In a game where everything changes in a matter of seconds, the difference between 1 second and 2 is very big, particularly when instinct and reaction time are factors. 1 seconds is hard to adjust to. 1 seconds is enough time to think. 2 seconds is enough time to think AND start to act. It may seem like splitting hairs, but they are important hairs.

The hits on the boards I see (that don't get called) and are considered finishing a check, take place a second later. 2 seconds is too long for those, because generally the player who just released the puck will have started to move away between seconds 1 and 2.

This is fun

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:04 PM
  #127
Buddy The Elf
Kings!
 
Buddy The Elf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Belmont Shore
Country: United States
Posts: 10,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
And once again I'll say that along the boards a second and change happens all the time without anyone thinking anything about it... Seeing as there aren't separate finishing a hit rules for hits against the boards vs. in the open ice, these can be legitimately compared for argument's sake. If you call this a late hit, you've got to call finishing hits along the boards late hits.

This is all my opinion of course...
I think the refs should use discretion. If in fact my statement above about the rule being a half a second is true, I don't see it as much of an issue on a clean hit where the player knows it is coming. Clean meaning the shoulder is going into the chest or body, not the head, and knows that it is coming. In Doughty's case, it looks to me like Cole knew where Doughty was and that he didn't have the puck but he hit him anyway. Now did he try and hurt him? Well I doubt anyone knows that.

I always thought the rule was nothing to do with time but to do with the if the player making the hit (clean) hit was already in motion to deliver the hit before the puck was out of the player's possesion, it wasn't late. When the guy said that on NHL on the fly, that was the first i heard of it so I don't know if that is new this year.

Buddy The Elf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:08 PM
  #128
JT Dutch*
Cult of Personality
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Thanks for posting the pics.

Its impossible to tell from those which side the fractions of a second are on, but the videos say 1:05 to 1:03. So based off those its two seconds.
... If you take the bottom red line on the "Time elapsed" pic and double it, it's longer than the top line. So, it's definitely less than a second and a half, but more than a second. And I agree, that's late - definitely later than I thought initially. In my view, it probably should have been penalized, but I don't see at all where it warrants a suspension. But the refs just missed it, apparently - or they just didn't think it was late enough of a hit.

EDIT: There's a linesman sitting right there on the boards, so he obviously didn't miss it.

JT Dutch* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:13 PM
  #129
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
I also think that had it taken place in the middle of the play, and there was a reaction on the ice (players coming to together, pushing, shoving, etc) then the league would have reacted differently. The fact that it wasn't really noticed until later unfortunately factors in here (I THINK).

I base this opinion off some of the calls by Campbell (like Wiz)... he reacts more harshly to things that get big notice among the public and seems to just let things slide that aren't turned into big deals right away. Just a random perception that could very well have to do with my very clear and determined bias against Campbell for the last several years.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:14 PM
  #130
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
In a game where everything changes in a matter of seconds, the difference between 1 second and 2 is very big, particularly when instinct and reaction time are factors. 1 seconds is hard to adjust to. 1 seconds is enough time to think. 2 seconds is enough time to think AND start to act. It may seem like splitting hairs, but they are important hairs.

The hits on the boards I see (that don't get called) and are considered finishing a check, take place a second later. 2 seconds is too long for those, because generally the player who just released the puck will have started to move away between seconds 1 and 2.

This is fun
Very fun indeed, I agree.

I disagree with what you're just said, however. When a defenseman is racing back after a dump in, and with his one touch on the puck chips it either in front or behind his momentum along the boards, he will often round behind the net. This is when the forechecking player will come up and finish his check, which can often take 2 seconds in change. I can't post an example, because these hits are certainly not highlights, so I can't find any on Youtube... I suppose without this evidence my argument might as well be discarded, but I believe you have all seen these hits without even knowing it...

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:18 PM
  #131
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... If you take the bottom red line on the "Time elapsed" pic and double it, it's longer than the top line. So, it's definitely less than a second and a half, but more than a second. And I agree, that's late - definitely later than I thought initially. In my view, it probably should have been penalized, but I don't see at all where it warrants a suspension. But the refs just missed it, apparently - or they just didn't think it was late enough of a hit.

EDIT: There's a linesman sitting right there on the boards, so he obviously didn't miss it.
Hmmm... I wasn't looking at the 'time elapsed' at the bottom.

Youtube isn't the best judge of time (they can't even keep many videos in sync with themselves).

Time is VERY sensitive. I run into this all the time when cutting music for people. They give me times off their cd players (ie: cut from :36 to :48), and their times are always a second or two off from the real time that I can see in my tuned editing and sampling programs. I've had the same thing happen when people reference stuff on youtube to me. Times on youtube are close, but they are approximate, not specific.

The red line doesn't really mean anything if we are talking about being as specific as possible. (not ragging on you, just trying to add something since most of my clients give me this confused look when I tell them their times are off. People in general don't seem to realize that time is recorded and presented in different ways depending on the system being used).

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:19 PM
  #132
KingLB
Registered User
 
KingLB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... If you take the bottom red line on the "Time elapsed" pic and double it, it's longer than the top line. So, it's definitely less than a second and a half, but more than a second. And I agree, that's late - definitely later than I thought initially. In my view, it probably should have been penalized, but I don't see at all where it warrants a suspension. But the refs just missed it, apparently - or they just didn't think it was late enough of a hit.

EDIT: There's a linesman sitting right there on the boards, so he obviously didn't miss it.
Don't think the linesman can do anything in this case. Only thing linesmen can help on are too many men, and major penalties(as far as penalties are concerned).

KingLB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:21 PM
  #133
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
Very fun indeed, I agree.

I disagree with what you're just said, however. When a defenseman is racing back after a dump in, and with his one touch on the puck chips it either in front or behind his momentum along the boards, he will often round behind the net. This is when the forechecking player will come up and finish his check, which can often take 2 seconds in change. I can't post an example, because these hits are certainly not highlights, so I can't find any on Youtube... I suppose without this evidence my argument might as well be discarded, but I believe you have all seen these hits without even knowing it...
Oh I've seen some. I don't think it happens ALL time (2 seconds). I think .5 to 1 second happens all the time and since you are going off memory you aren't really parsing between the two.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a different hit in the game last night, sort of like the kind you are referring to, by Richardson on some Canes player (I forget who), and I thought it was late and commented to my friend at the time that Richardson was lucky not to get called on interference. So I don't disagree that those kinds of hits happen, but I think in general they take place in .5 to 1 second time frame.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:23 PM
  #134
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I think the refs should use discretion. If in fact my statement above about the rule being a half a second is true, I don't see it as much of an issue on a clean hit where the player knows it is coming. Clean meaning the shoulder is going into the chest or body, not the head, and knows that it is coming. In Doughty's case, it looks to me like Cole knew where Doughty was and that he didn't have the puck but he hit him anyway. Now did he try and hurt him? Well I doubt anyone knows that.

I always thought the rule was nothing to do with time but to do with the if the player making the hit (clean) hit was already in motion to deliver the hit before the puck was out of the player's possesion, it wasn't late. When the guy said that on NHL on the fly, that was the first i heard of it so I don't know if that is new this year.
I feel like I've heard this half second rule before...

To google I go!

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:26 PM
  #135
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Oh I've seen some. I don't think it happens ALL time (2 seconds). I think .5 to 1 second happens all the time and since you are going off memory you aren't really parsing between the two.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a different hit in the game last night, sort of like the kind you are referring to, by Richardson on some Canes player (I forget who), and I thought it was late and commented to my friend at the time that Richardson was lucky not to get called on interference. So I don't disagree that those kinds of hits happen, but I think in general they take place in .5 to 1 second time frame.
I may be remembering wrong, but I also didn't think that the time between when Doughty released the puck and when he got hit was anywhere close to 2 seconds.

I'll cut you a deal, I'll admit that the hits on the boards are closer to a second if you'll admit that the Cole hit was a second and change


Last edited by Anton Dubinchuk: 10-21-2010 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Grammatical Error...
Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:31 PM
  #136
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
This is all I could find in my initial sweep:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL rulebook, page 81, rules on interference
Possession of the Puck:
The last player to touch the puck, other than the
goalkeeper, shall be considered the player in
possession. The player deemed in possession of the
puck may be checked legally, provided the check is
rendered immediately following his loss of
possession.
It says IMMEDIATELY. Either way, Cole's hit was not immediate.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:32 PM
  #137
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
I may be remembering wrong, but I also didn't think that the time between when Doughty released the puck and when he got hit was anywhere close to 2 seconds.

I'll cut you a deal, I'll admit that the hits on the boards are closer to a second if you'll admit that the Cole hit was a second and change
No deal!

(I drive a hard bargain)

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:34 PM
  #138
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
No deal!

(I drive a hard bargain)
I'll throw in future considerations... PLEASE???

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:36 PM
  #139
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
I'll throw in future considerations... PLEASE???
Nope, needs the HF 3rd round pick.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:39 PM
  #140
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Nope, needs the HF 3rd round pick.
Make it a 4th rounder and you've got yourself a deal...

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:41 PM
  #141
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
Make it a 4th rounder and you've got yourself a deal...
OK, deal.







....wait, nevermind. Now I find myself wanting Micheal Ryder too.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:42 PM
  #142
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
OK, deal.







....wait, nevermind. Now I find myself wanting Micheal Ryder too.
Probably the first time these words have ever been said...

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:44 PM
  #143
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
Probably the first time these words have ever been said...
lol. Good stuff.

Well, at least, after all that, we agree that Cole deserved a two game suspension

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:47 PM
  #144
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
lol. Good stuff.

Well, at least, after all that, we agree that Cole deserved a two game suspension


Your argumentative skills are godly. I didn't even realize I stepped into that one. Honestly, I still don't...

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:50 PM
  #145
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post


Your argumentative skills are godly. I didn't even realize I stepped into that one. Honestly, I still don't...
All in a days work.

Too bad we don't play each other more than once or twice a year. The Canes board strikes me as a zany place. Maybe I'll stop by in a few weeks when you are all ducking at home and instinctively looking over your shoulder anytime O'Sullivan shoots the puck.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 07:57 PM
  #146
RonSwanson*
Gadfly
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Food 'N Stuff
Country: United States
Posts: 8,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Good post. Smart post. I agree that the video is inconclusive on the point of contact.

My contention with the hit is the timing. I don't think this is the same as the hits you talk about along the boards. I've seen hits this late called as penalties and I've seen this same hit get two and three game suspensions this season. I mostly care about consistency with Colin Campbell, of which I feel he has shown none.

I wanted a 2 game suspension for this hit, because it was late and from the side. I don't think it warranted more. Yes, Doughty started to turn into it, but I count 2.5 seconds from the time Doughty passes the puck to the time he is hit. This brings us to intent.

Its increasingly becoming unclear to me how much intent factors in to suspensions. Sometimes it seems the letter of the law is all that matters and then other times intent becomes a major factor. That bothers me. Did Cole intend to hurt Doughty? Who knows? Did he intend to hit him? Yes. Did he know Doughty didn't have the puck and therefore was not fair game, either the answer is yes or Cole wasn't paying attention to play. Had he known Doughty didn't have the puck for that long, then he should have spun away and not leaned into him. If he didn't know then Cole must have been targeting Doughty the whole way. Again, either one speaks to intent.

Should intent play into suspensions? That's a different argument, but the league should be consistent on the weight of perceived intention.

3 games for Doan when I thought Hjalmarsson's hit was much worse.

2 games for Hjalmarsson when all Wiz did was make a gesture.

I've never liked the way the league handles suspensions and this just reinforces their lack of consistency in my mind.
I think the league needs to recognize its stars and protect them better. If Crosby got hit like that, then you bet the player would have gotten a suspension.

RonSwanson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 08:03 PM
  #147
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
All in a days work.

Too bad we don't play each other more than once or twice a year. The Canes board strikes me as a zany place. Maybe I'll stop by in a few weeks when you are all ducking at home and instinctively looking over your shoulder anytime O'Sullivan shoots the puck.
You have no idea. There's so much Babchuk worship on those boards, it's fantastic. I literally LOL about 3 times a day from the random BS they post there...

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 08:08 PM
  #148
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
You have no idea. There's so much Babchuk worship on those boards, it's fantastic. I literally LOL about 3 times a day from the random BS they post there...
In case you missed it, check out our first few pages from our GDT of last night's game. One of our posters got owned pretty hard by the Babchuk centering your first line post. We all laughed and laughed...

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 08:10 PM
  #149
Anton Dubinchuk
go perds
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
In case you missed it, check out our first few pages from our GDT of last night's game. One of our posters got owned pretty hard by the Babchuk centering your first line post. We all laughed and laughed...
Yeah, I saw that, he was getting laughed at on our boards as well...

That was nothing compared to the suggested lines to start the season, which were as follows:

Babchuk - Babchuk - Babchuk
Babchuk - Babchuk - Babchuk
Babchuk - Babchuk - Babchuk
Babchuk - Babchuk - Anson Carter

I swear when these were first posted I cried...

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-21-2010, 08:13 PM
  #150
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
Poor Cutty.

... - Anson Carter.

LOL. Priceless. Of all the idiots to throw in there.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.