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Moves that will get Calgary to the next level

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Old
01-19-2005, 08:59 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
He played quite a bit on the #2PP and #2 line at times, especially with injuries.
Ah yes... Reinprecht - ??? (Forsberg?) - Niemenen wasn't it?

For some reason, I didn't notice him too much.

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01-19-2005, 09:30 PM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Ah yes... Reinprecht - ??? (Forsberg?) - Niemenen wasn't it?

For some reason, I didn't notice him too much.
Nope it was not Nemo on the #2 PP. I think it was Drury but definetly not Nemo.

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01-19-2005, 09:58 PM
  #353
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Interesting idea to put Lombardi on the LW Splatman, I don't know, someone (hint, hint, ) Should check the stats and see who Calgary's 4 best draw taking centermen are, and make sure one is on each line, supposing it makes sense from a skill standpoint.

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01-19-2005, 10:06 PM
  #354
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I don't think putting Lombardi on the wing is a good idea. Wingers are most usually the guys in the corners (for example, Donovan, Clark, iginla, Simon, Gelinas, etc). More than anything our centers hang back, incease of a turnover. It seems quite strange to play Lombardi on the wing and make him go into the corners mroe when this whole thread has been how a "certain person" it trying to protect Lombardi on the ice. Seems quite counter productive.

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01-19-2005, 10:43 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
I don't think putting Lombardi on the wing is a good idea. Wingers are most usually the guys in the corners (for example, Donovan, Clark, iginla, Simon, Gelinas, etc). More than anything our centers hang back, incease of a turnover. It seems quite strange to play Lombardi on the wing and make him go into the corners mroe when this whole thread has been how a "certain person" it trying to protect Lombardi on the ice. Seems quite counter productive.
You would think, but Lindros got moved from center to wing because of concussion problems. (Or was that just cutting through center ice?)

In any case, yes I did factor in Lombardi's concussions and while it does seem counter productive to my previous arguments, my backup/support would be to maybe have Iginla work the physical areas moreso (yes, I know he is our superstar) to create space for Lombardi. Typically, centers are bigger while there are tons of smaller successful wingers (St Louis, Samsonov, Fleury to name a few).

I do favour my previous lineup, but this was more to please your (Patrick) wish of having the top guns (Iginla, Langkow, Reinprecht, Kobasew, Lombardi) exclusively on the top 2 lines.

It was just merely a suggestion though, I wouldn't read too much into it.

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01-20-2005, 01:00 AM
  #356
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Well, here are the FO% for Calgary Flame forwards for last season, only players still with the team, Wiemer, Ritchie and Langkow are added.

Stephane Yelle - 56.6%
Jarome Iginla - 54.4%
Byron Ritchie - 48.8%
Martin Gelinas - 48.1%
Matthew Lombardi - 47.9%
Marcus Nilson - 44.8%
Jason Wiemer - 44.6%
Daymond Langkow - 43.1%
Chuck Kobasew - 42.8%
Steve Reinprecht - 40.0%
Chris Simon - 40.0%
Shean Donovan - 39.6%
Chris Clark - 36.1%
Ville Nieminen - 11.1%

Well, This doesn't help all that much, obviously we want Yelle taking alot of draws, as seen in last years playoffs when he just took draws and left, but really he is just brilliant in the 3rd line role. Odd that Iginla is so good on the draw, nice to have him on the top line actually with Rhino and Lombo, and it looks like Lombo should be taking those draws, though he's nothing special, Langkow is not good on the draw at all, which is weird, I would have suspected he would be, but he's too good defensively as a center to take out of that spot, and Wiemer was not good last year at all, Nilson isn't anything special, Ritchie isn't great, Gelinas could be better, Kobasew is nothing special.

Really it underscores how much Calgary's centers need to work on their draw taking capabilities. However, I feel alot more confident in a Simon/Rhino-Lombardi-Iginla line. However the second line is not going to have a solid faceoff man by the looks of it. Yelle on the third is brilliant though, and the fourth line needs to work on things.

This didn't really clear things up at all.

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01-20-2005, 02:04 AM
  #357
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It would be much more interesting to see their %'s in the home and oppositions end of the ice where it really matters. I don't think neutral zone faceoffs should count for much.

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01-20-2005, 02:11 AM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer

Well, This doesn't help all that much, obviously we want Yelle taking alot of draws, as seen in last years playoffs when he just took draws and left, but really he is just brilliant in the 3rd line role. Odd that Iginla is so good on the draw, nice to have him on the top line actually with Rhino and Lombo, and it looks like Lombo should be taking those draws, though he's nothing special, Langkow is not good on the draw at all, which is weird, I would have suspected he would be, but he's too good defensively as a center to take out of that spot, and Wiemer was not good last year at all, Nilson isn't anything special, Ritchie isn't great, Gelinas could be better, Kobasew is nothing special.
Iginla only took 305 draws last year though. As a comparison, Yelle took 996 in only 53 RS games. Iginla's probably decent, but I bet he's not really that great and the sample size is just small. Also, I think I remember if you look at his career numbers, Langkow has always been pretty terrible on the dot. It is weird.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:27 AM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
Well, here are the FO% for Calgary Flame forwards for last season, only players still with the team, Wiemer, Ritchie and Langkow are added.

Stephane Yelle - 56.6%
Jarome Iginla - 54.4%
Byron Ritchie - 48.8%
Martin Gelinas - 48.1%
Matthew Lombardi - 47.9%
Marcus Nilson - 44.8%
Jason Wiemer - 44.6%
Daymond Langkow - 43.1%
Chuck Kobasew - 42.8%
Steve Reinprecht - 40.0%
Chris Simon - 40.0%
Shean Donovan - 39.6%
Chris Clark - 36.1%
Ville Nieminen - 11.1%

Well, This doesn't help all that much, obviously we want Yelle taking alot of draws, as seen in last years playoffs when he just took draws and left, but really he is just brilliant in the 3rd line role. Odd that Iginla is so good on the draw, nice to have him on the top line actually with Rhino and Lombo, and it looks like Lombo should be taking those draws, though he's nothing special, Langkow is not good on the draw at all, which is weird, I would have suspected he would be, but he's too good defensively as a center to take out of that spot, and Wiemer was not good last year at all, Nilson isn't anything special, Ritchie isn't great, Gelinas could be better, Kobasew is nothing special.

Really it underscores how much Calgary's centers need to work on their draw taking capabilities. However, I feel alot more confident in a Simon/Rhino-Lombardi-Iginla line. However the second line is not going to have a solid faceoff man by the looks of it. Yelle on the third is brilliant though, and the fourth line needs to work on things.

This didn't really clear things up at all.
I think stats would also be needed on how many draws they take. While Iginla's up there, Conroy took most of the faceoffs. I also recall Weimer being decent in that department, while its a surprise to me that Simon and Niemenen have even taken a draw at all.

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01-20-2005, 02:48 AM
  #360
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Wiemer is average for faceoffs. He had one winning % of faceoffs and the rest have all fallen in the 40% range. A couple middle 40s, a couple low 40s. Nothing to get excited about.

On the other hand, one guy that has REALLY made me think about taking draws it Ritchie. The guy has hovered around to 50% mark for quite a few years now. Depending on his play, he might be a 4th line center and a #2 PK center.

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01-20-2005, 03:09 AM
  #361
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Wiemer is actually brutal on faceoffs, and he is will below average in the NHL. I think he is going to be a great pickup for he Flames and I hated to see him let go by the Isles. But, don't expect him to do much in the faceoff circle.

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01-20-2005, 09:01 AM
  #362
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Conroy and Yelle were both in the top five last year

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01-20-2005, 12:17 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Wiemer is actually brutal on faceoffs, and he is will below average in the NHL. I think he is going to be a great pickup for he Flames and I hated to see him let go by the Isles. But, don't expect him to do much in the faceoff circle.
My bad

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01-20-2005, 01:41 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Nimrods Son
Conroy and Yelle were both in the top five last year
No they were not! Amongst centers, Yelle finished 6th best and Conroy finished 21st according to nhl.com

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01-20-2005, 05:10 PM
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Kobasew was tried on LW (with Iginla) and failed miserably. Ditto Iginla who tried the LW (with Kobasew on the RW) and that failed miserably.

RE Clark: Here I was thinking that Clark couldn't pass or take passes at all

Just wondering, FDW, when was the last time he played on the LW? I think it was just the season before, on the 3rd line.
I don't recall Clark ever playing LW for any significant amount of time in his career.

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01-20-2005, 05:24 PM
  #366
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Reinprecht's faceoff ability was obviously hampered by the shoulder injury. He could probably put up better numbers when healthy.

However Sutter has indicated he likes him better on the wing. Lombardi probably has some room for improvement on his faceoff ability. I would think Langkow, Yelle, Lombardi, Wiemer and Ritchie will be our centres for the majority of the time.

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01-20-2005, 07:52 PM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Reinprecht's faceoff ability was obviously hampered by the shoulder injury. He could probably put up better numbers when healthy.

However Sutter has indicated he likes him better on the wing. Lombardi probably has some room for improvement on his faceoff ability. I would think Langkow, Yelle, Lombardi, Wiemer and Ritchie will be our centres for the majority of the time.
I think I'd go with that in the end.

I think the best recommendation I can make is that Yelle teaches everyone how to take FOs for 20 minutes after every practice.

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01-21-2005, 12:14 AM
  #368
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why do stats mean so much to you? Yelle and Conroy were clearly two of the top five face off guys in the league last year

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01-21-2005, 12:58 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Nimrods Son
why do stats mean so much to you? Yelle and Conroy were clearly two of the top five face off guys in the league last year
No they werrn't. There were guys above them, who won more faceoffs and had a better win rate.

How do you judge faceoffs, if not for % won nor amount won???

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01-21-2005, 01:53 AM
  #370
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very easily........by watching the actual games. You are just like a typical north american, convinced that stats tell the whole story.

watch the way mark messier takes faceoffs and tell me he is not the best in the game.

if you don't know what I am talking about, you never will. go back home and read some more stats.

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01-21-2005, 02:06 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Nimrods Son
very easily........by watching the actual games. You are just like a typical north american, convinced that stats tell the whole story.

watch the way mark messier takes faceoffs and tell me he is not the best in the game.

if you don't know what I am talking about, you never will. go back home and read some more stats.
Now I've had my head butting with Patrick throughout this thread, but given a feasble number to go by, I think a faceoff percentage is a good way to judge a player.

But you do have my fasinated. Why don't you tell us what makes a good faceoff man, and what doesn't? Timing, moves, reading plays, cheats, everything. I'm fasinated.

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01-21-2005, 02:16 AM
  #372
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exactly, watch the way messier wins the faceoffs. He doesn't always win the puck, but he can win the faceoff by having the other face off guy "win" the puck and put it in a place he doesn't want to, eg. behind the net. The Oilers in the late 80s did this all the time. Messier would line up at centre for the faceoff, Gretzky to his right or left depending on which side of the rink the puck was to be dropped. Somehow Messier would allow the other guy to "win" the faceoff, yet it seemed the puck would inevitably end up behind the net quite often. Meanwhile, Gretzky would be streaking in to pick up the loose puck, and take up position behind the net, where he was at his most effective.

I love guys like Patrick who think that stats tell the whole story. Patrick, tell me, if I "win" the faceoff by getting the puck behind my body, however the wing man on the other team is able to touch the puck before any player on my team, have I really "won" the faceoff? Seems to me that you're one of those guys who believe that Peyton Manning is a better quarterback than Tom Brady, because his "stats" are so much better. Who would you have playing for the Flames right now, Brett Hull, one of the top scorers in history, or Chris Clark, a fourth line grinder who will never be anything better than a 20 point a season player?

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01-21-2005, 02:21 AM
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimrods Son
very easily........by watching the actual games. You are just like a typical north american, convinced that stats tell the whole story.

watch the way mark messier takes faceoffs and tell me he is not the best in the game.

if you don't know what I am talking about, you never will. go back home and read some more stats.
No Yannic Perrault was the best, just watch how he's doing this. And you can also read his stats.

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01-21-2005, 02:33 AM
  #374
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I'm not talking last season, I'm talking within my lifetime. I hate Messier but in his day he was unbeatable in the face off circle. He's still one of the best at what, 44 years old now?

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01-21-2005, 10:57 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Nimrods Son
I love guys like Patrick who think that stats tell the whole story. Patrick, tell me, if I "win" the faceoff by getting the puck behind my body, however the wing man on the other team is able to touch the puck before any player on my team, have I really "won" the faceoff? Seems to me that you're one of those guys who believe that Peyton Manning is a better quarterback than Tom Brady, because his "stats" are so much better. Who would you have playing for the Flames right now, Brett Hull, one of the top scorers in history, or Chris Clark, a fourth line grinder who will never be anything better than a 20 point a season player?
So when did football become part of hockey???

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