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Attendance issues: Part II

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Old
10-24-2010, 07:44 PM
  #76
Confucius
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To be fair, the leafs could probably fill the place, just with the friends and family of present and past NHL players.

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10-24-2010, 08:07 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Acesolid View Post
Maybe people would want to watch hockey because they actually like hockey?

The reason places like Toronto, Quebec city, Winnipeg and Montreal are almost always full even with terrible teams is that we like hockey on top of a team.

That's one big difference with the majority of people in some southern markets (who go watch the hockey team as an ordinary sport team, so only when it does well), and the majority in the northern USA and Canada who actually likes hockey as itself, and not just as a sport with your local team in it.
This is exactly right, Acesolid. I remember going to NHL games in Winnipeg in certain years where the Jets were terrible. Even though the Jets were probably going to lose the game, I went there to watch the game of hockey played at the top level. I went to watch the star player on the other teams or to watch a young prospect on the Jets develop. Of course, I was hoping for a miracle Jets win, but I was also able to enjoy and appreciate the game regardless and have a good time. I believe that is how the fans are in markets like QC and Winnipeg. That's probably why attendance didn't dip when our teams' performance was an issue.

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10-24-2010, 08:11 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
Something else to consider is that in a lot of places in California and New York and Texas, people get paid a lot more money for almost the same jobs as in other places simply because the cost of living is higher there so they make more money because they have to spend more on rent etc. So when you look at ticket prices they are probably paying less than the average that normal people make.
Cost of living higher in Texas? You've got to be kidding. That's one of the cheapest places to live I've ever been.

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10-24-2010, 08:21 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
Okay looking up average ticket prices from 2009

1. Toronto - $92
2. Montreal - $67
T3. Vancouver - $63
T3. Colorado - $63
T5. Boston - $61
T5. Minnesota - $61
7. Philadelphia - $60
8. Detroit - $58
9. New Jersey - $57
10. Calgary - $56
T11. Edmonton - $55
T11. New York Rangers - $55
13. Florida - $53
14. Ottawa - $52
15. Pittsburgh - $51
16. Dallas - $50
17. New York Islanders - $49
18. Columbus - $48
T19. Los Angeles - $47
T19. Nashville - $47
21. Chicago - $46
22. Atlanta - $45
23. Anaheim - $44
T24. San Jose - $43
T24. St. Louis - $43
T26. Tampa Bay - $42
T26. Washington - $42
T26. Carolina - $42
29. Phoenix - $37
30. Buffalo - $36

Something else to consider is that in a lot of places in California and New York and Texas, people get paid a lot more money for almost the same jobs as in other places simply because the cost of living is higher there so they make more money because they have to spend more on rent etc. So when you look at ticket prices they are probably paying less than the average that normal people make.
What is the source for those numbers?

At first I thought the discredited TMR numbers - but they do not quite match (Colorado is too realistically high to be TMR numbers).

But that $43 number is way off for the Sharks - but does match the $43.07 2009 TMR FCI Avg Ticket price.

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10-24-2010, 08:24 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Cost of living higher in Texas? You've got to be kidding. That's one of the cheapest places to live I've ever been.

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I know. I considered moving from the Bay Area to Dallas in 2000 and actually did a house hunting trip. It ruined me for life - it was like "Aren't you missing a zero there".

I knew a bunch of people who moved from the Bay Area to the DFW area before they changed the capital gains law on home sales in the early 90s - you had to buy a place at least as expensive as the one you sold in order to shelter the gains from taxes. I knew single guys in their 20's who had to buy 5 and 6 bedroom houses to match the sales prices on their Silicon Valley condos. As one once commented - I have rooms I haven't been to for moths.

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10-24-2010, 08:39 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
What is the source for those numbers?

At first I thought the discredited TMR numbers - but they do not quite match (Colorado is too realistically high to be TMR numbers).

But that $43 number is way off for the Sharks - but does match the $43.07 2009 TMR FCI Avg Ticket price.
Forbes list on most valuable teams, revenue, etc. They break down all the categories for people, including what teams make from the sport, from the gate, from marketing, and all the operations costs like concessions, leases, etc.

And you're right about Texas. The cost of living isn't very high there I was thinking about somewhere else that I heard had a high cost of living but couldn't remember where it was. Either way, New York and California it is true.

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10-24-2010, 08:42 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
Okay looking up average ticket prices from 2009
13. Florida - $53
I find that *very* hard to believe given this year people are picking up season tickets at $5 uppers and $20 lowers, getting two-fer specials etc.

 
Old
10-24-2010, 08:43 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I find that *very* hard to believe given this year people are picking up season tickets at $5 uppers and $20 lowers, getting two-fer specials etc.
It's just the listed average ticket price. So maybe they are selling their top seats at a higher rate to get to a 53 dollar average. There's a lot of rich people in Florida that could pay a lot of money for the top seats. I don't know where Forbes gets their numbers but I'm not inclined to believe that they list average ticket prices and they aren't accurate. Businesses usually don't report making more then they actually are because then they have to pay more taxes...

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10-24-2010, 08:51 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
It's just the listed average ticket price.
Wasn't it Florida that ran a "name your own price" blowout special this off-season?

At $53 average and reported attendance, they would have been generating around $700k a game in gate revenue last season, or roughly $35M. Using Forbes' number for gate revenue ($25M) and official league numbers for attendance (15.1k) the average price should be around $37.

Something doesn't appear to be adding up...

 
Old
10-24-2010, 08:57 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Wasn't it Florida that ran a "name your own price" blowout special this off-season?

At $53 average and reported attendance, they would have been generating around $700k a game in gate revenue last season, or roughly $35M. Using Forbes' number for gate revenue ($25M) and official league numbers for attendance (15.1k) the average price should be around $37.

Something doesn't appear to be adding up...
Maybe it's the average ticket price for sale but not necessarily sold.

I just noticed a statistic known as local revenue per fan. The Panthers are averaging $11 per fan (Stadium and local media revenue generated per person in the metro area. )

So if you look at that statistic it looks like this

Local revenue per fan:

1. Calgary - $78
2. Ottawa - $70
3. Edmonton - $68
4. Buffalo - $59
5. Vancouver - $49
6. Carolina - $42
T7. Montreal - $36
T7. Pittsburgh - $36
9. Columbus - $35
T10. Nashville $33
T10. Toronto - $33
T12. Colorado - $29
T12. Detroit - $29
14. Minnesota - $27
15. Tampa Bay - $24
16. St. Louis - $23
T17. Boston - $22
T17. New York Rangers - $22
T19. Philadelphia - $17
T19. San Jose - $17
T21. Dallas - $14
T21. New Jersey - $14
T23. Anaheim - $13
T23. Los Angeles - $13
T23. Washington - $13
T26. Chicago - $11
T26. Florida - $11
T26. Phoenix - $11
29. Atlanta - $10
30. New York Islanders - $9

Basically it comes down to how much money teams are making off based on the amount of people in the area, the revenue they generate from marketing as a result of those potential fans, and then also the fans who buy products or go to games etc etc.

So teams like Calgary, Ottawa, and Edmonton are making a ton of money despite having some of the smallest markets per fan, which isn't too surprising. Obviously the NYI don't make as much money because New York is a huge market and they have to compete with the Rangers and Devils for the same market among other reasons. Surprised to see Carolina making so much money based on each person though.


Last edited by Gulvorn: 10-24-2010 at 09:09 PM.
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Old
10-24-2010, 09:00 PM
  #86
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I'm surprised on the average ticket price in some places. I went to a New York Giants game the season after they won the Superbowl against the Seahawks for 40 dollars a ticket for corner seats in the lower bowl off a scalper. The guy beside us also said that we got ripped off on these tickets too.

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Old
10-24-2010, 09:17 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Wasn't it Florida that ran a "name your own price" blowout special this off-season?

At $53 average and reported attendance, they would have been generating around $700k a game in gate revenue last season, or roughly $35M. Using Forbes' number for gate revenue ($25M) and official league numbers for attendance (15.1k) the average price should be around $37.

Something doesn't appear to be adding up...
Yes, after double checking your math is correct. However, I believe what Forbes lists is not the average ticket price sold, but the average ticket price in the arena. So this means people are buying up all the cheaper seats while a lot of the expensive lower bowl seats are not purchased, so in reality their average ticket price sold is actually about $37. And keep in mind that the average ticket price also includes the club seats.

Everyone also has to keep in mind that this is for the 2008-2009 season as the 2009-2010 revenue does not get posted until about November of this year.

Maybe when people talk about interest that cities have in hockey, they should start considering the population size of the city and the money generated based on those numbers and not just the attendance a team has. Obviously huge markets are always going to sell out but that doesn't mean more people in that city percentage wise care about hockey, just means they have more people and likely have more people who care about the sport as a result.


Last edited by Gulvorn: 10-24-2010 at 09:24 PM.
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Old
10-24-2010, 10:09 PM
  #88
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The bottomline is high ticket costs will keep people away in weaker markets.

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Old
10-24-2010, 11:03 PM
  #89
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you cant just go around giving out 5000 free tickets every game..if you did the existing season ticket holders will stop renewing and find a way to get the free tickets...why spend thousands of dollars when theres free/ super cheap resale market for tickets?

no one is expecting the bluejackets, thrashers, coyotes, panthers to sell out everynight given the lousy records and economy..but theres a difference between averaging say 13-14k per game and 6-8k, especially when you factor is the absurd promotions and ticket deals that those markets are offering.

There is never an excuse for less than 10k in attendance. Period.
In a year that ended up with them in the Stanley Cup Finals, the North Stars averaged less than 8,000 per game. Is Minnesota not a hockey market, or was this another standard case of people exercising good taste by not squandering money to see a largely mediocre team?

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10-24-2010, 11:14 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
However, I believe what Forbes lists is not the average ticket price sold, but the average ticket price in the arena.
Like "MSRP", eh. That makes sense, that's easily calculable from public sources.

 
Old
10-24-2010, 11:19 PM
  #91
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In a year that ended up with them in the Stanley Cup Finals, the North Stars averaged less than 8,000 per game. Is Minnesota not a hockey market, or was this another standard case of people exercising good taste by not squandering money to see a largely mediocre team?
1) Your making a comparison between 1990 and 2010 attendance numbers. Big difference in what should be considered acceptable.

2) The North Stars ended up leaving for Dallas in the following years, so I'm not sure how this really helps your argument.

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10-24-2010, 11:39 PM
  #92
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Like "MSRP", eh. That makes sense, that's easily calculable from public sources.
Or, they are basically meaningless, unsourced numbers that Forbes basically pulled out of their ass or other non-authoritative source.

There is no way the Sharks $43 number can be justified by actual average ticket price or average of prices or any metric that doesn't take the TMR approach of just randomly excluding expensive seats based on how team marketing departments respond to their survey. The fact that the Forbes number exactly matches the TMR $43.07 avg price makes the Forbes numbers suspect.


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10-25-2010, 12:27 AM
  #93
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I can read a seating chart and price list and do the math.



In '08-'09 and '09-'10 the corresponding prices were:

STH: $18, $29, $36, $46, $75, $67, $80, $101, $105, $109, $150
non-STH: $20, $34, $41, $52, $82, $74, $87, $110, $115, $120, $175

The only seats less than Forbes reported average of $43 were the last 5 rows of the upper bowl and the upper bowl ends - about 25% of total seats, with the bulk of those being only marginally less than that average ($36/$41). Meanwhile the lower bowl (~50% of total seats) has an average price of over 2x the Forbes/TMR number. It is mathematically impossible to get a $43 avg ticket price from those numbers. It is possible, though, if you take the TMR approach and throw out the club seats.


Last edited by LadyStanley: 10-25-2010 at 01:04 AM. Reason: qdp
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10-25-2010, 01:28 AM
  #94
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Yea..those average ticket prices listed seem way off, there is no way the average in Buffalo is only $36, for that price you could only get 300 level tickets.

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10-25-2010, 09:28 AM
  #95
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Surprised to see Carolina making so much money based on each person though.
No real surprise there given how small the metro area of Raleigh is compared to the other cities in the league. Another smaller factor is that Carolina has a small but very dedicated fan base. This is a bad thing if you are looking for sheer size and getting a hold on the "casual fan", but a good thing in the fact that you can pretty well count on that dedicated fan base to be there even when things get rough.

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10-25-2010, 04:26 PM
  #96
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This is exactly right, Acesolid. I remember going to NHL games in Winnipeg in certain years where the Jets were terrible. Even though the Jets were probably going to lose the game, I went there to watch the game of hockey played at the top level. I went to watch the star player on the other teams or to watch a young prospect on the Jets develop. Of course, I was hoping for a miracle Jets win, but I was also able to enjoy and appreciate the game regardless and have a good time. I believe that is how the fans are in markets like QC and Winnipeg. That's probably why attendance didn't dip when our teams' performance was an issue.

GHOST
Sure my friend I've gone to games like that in Columbus for 10 years straight. I've bought season tickets for those years. I think many fans go to Columbus games for the very same reason I think part of the problem is the very poor business operation. Its one thing when the team is bad and there is little question the Blue Jackets are one of the worst hockey operations in the NHL, but the real problem isn't so much the inability to compete. Its the lack of professionalism that permeates the entire operation. They are not even mediocre at many things. If I were to forward you some of the communications from the team you might beat very surprised.

If I stop buying season tickets I would still go to 10 or 15 games in Columbus plus the 5 or so games I usually go to in Philadelphia. The real problem for attendance is when fans don't buy season tickets because once that happens they are much less likely to go to weekday games

It's 1 thing to get fans to go to 5 or 10 games, it's quite another to get them to layout 10,000 dollars every year to be insulted. Oh and I am not arguing how my city deserves a team
I'm saying this business doesn't deserve fans. Please take the blue jacketS I just want you to support the same bad business operations that I have for the last 10 years. then let's see how much you love them.
hell I could just watch center ice, go to college, minor league, USHL Juniors And my flyers games, The happier and spend much less. Take them on the condition that they keep the same crappy Operation.


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10-25-2010, 04:32 PM
  #97
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Sure my friend I've gone to games like that in Columbus for 10 years straight. I've bought season tickets for those years. I think many fans go to Columbus games for the very same reason I think part of the problem is the very poor business operation. Its one thing when the team is bad and there is little question the Blue Jackets are one of the worst hockey operations in the NHL, but the real problem isn't so much the inability to compete. Its the lack of professionalism that permeates the entire operation. They are not even mediocre at many things. If I were to forward you some of the communications from the team you might beat very surprised.

If I stop buying season tickets I would still go to 10 or 15 games in Columbus plus the 5 or so games I usually go to in Philadelphia. The real problem for attendance is when fans don't buy season tickets because once that happens they are much less likely to go to weekday games

It's 1 thing to get fans to go to 5 or 10 games, it's quite another to get them to layout 10,000 dollars every year to be insulted.
I guess the hard part to figure out is why are these guys such poor HOCKEY businessmen but such good businessmen in other feilds?

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10-25-2010, 05:41 PM
  #98
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Yes they do. I own two of them.
Thanks leek for the response.

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10-25-2010, 07:20 PM
  #99
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Columbus looks good tonight.

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10-25-2010, 07:43 PM
  #100
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You have to honestly consider the bad economy as a legit reason for attendance to be down, in every major sport in the US. The NFL and NBA are both claiming MAJOR losses, ditto for Nascar (not a major sport really). If the NHL is only seeing declines of a few percent, that's a really encouraging sign.

As for part of the difference in US and Canada, there are more NHL markets with other pro sports teams, e.g. more competition for the entertainment dollar. Figure in that there are more warm weather cities with NHL teams in the US, which means more outdoor activities/options available. Even if you love hockey, there are some absolutely beautiful nights in Atlanta, TB etc, where going to the beach or a park is the best thing in the world and completely free for all parties involved.

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