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Fire Howson Thread

View Poll Results: Should Scott Howson be fired?
Yes 85 59.03%
No 59 40.97%
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Old
10-17-2011, 01:43 PM
  #726
jore
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Originally Posted by JF Omalycat View Post
My only request. I would prefer not to draft anyone who's last name ends with a "v".

Thanks,
Randy.
Can we skip the French Canadians as well?

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10-17-2011, 02:39 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
He's not the problem.
What is "the" problem? I fairly comfortable that there are multiple problems. Is Nash and/or the leadership part of those problems? Magic 8-ball says "Not sure". It cheated and read my mind.

What do I know?

1. This the most talented team we've had.
2. We still have holes. Just not as many or as damning.
3. We are under performing
4. The team came out really flat after and 0-3-1 start.
5. We are not performing well in the 3rd period.
6. The team is not executing the system as it is intended.
7. We should be a lot better than what we are seeing.

What changed from that playoff year to the next year that hasn't improved since then? Obviously there are some changes and the team has to adjust. However, the biggest change was to the top line and they seemed to be doing fine. The second line has been just as inconsistent as last year.

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10-17-2011, 05:55 PM
  #728
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[QUOTE=Palinka;38033821]For that matter, did he draft a new version of Wayne Gretzky between 2007 and 2011? Surely this is because of a lack of effort and not at all the result of other factors, namely those related to....I don't know, who's actually available, what the cost is of those players, what it would cost to trade for those players, and that type of thing. You know, market forces, which obviously has nothing to do with running a hockey team.

I'd also argue that the stated plan of building through the draft has worked a heck of a lot better than you're giving credit for. Unlike the previous regime, the Scott Howson regime has seen an incredible turnaround on both the number of prospects and the caliber of prospects, particularly in the later rounds.

Really that's your argument for keeping Howson, that he has to find these people who are available and get them. THAT IS HIS JOB. My god how devoted you are to a man who has won nothing in his tenure here. Yeah they made the playoffs once, and were swept, but after that it has been an incredible amount of suck here.

Now to your other point about the draft, who has he drafted that has turned into a star or for that matter anything above the 3rd line or the 3rd paring. Nobody. I don't care about potential or what the prospects do in junior or college. It still isn't happening here which is ultimately all that matters.

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10-19-2011, 02:38 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
That's a cop out.
Well, let's think about this. A GM takes over an expansion team that has minimally more talent than it had after its expansion draft and first entry draft. There are gaping holes all over the place that need to be fixed, and there's very little coming up in the farm system that projects to be higher than a fourth-line forward, a third-pairing defenseman, or a backup goalie.

And with so little talent on the NHL roster, there sure isn't any type of real pieces that can be moved in order to improve the team. Of course, Columbus isn't exactly a hot free agent destination either, so it's either overpay drastically or target the second- and third-tier free agents to patch holes while waiting for the prospects to develop.

Quote:
That's another cop out.

Team may or may not recover. You either aren't watching what's happening during practice as well as the games, or you are blind to it.

I'll give you credit, you are loyal to a fault.
I can't watch what's happening during practice; I can only get secondhand reports.

As for loyalty, if that were true, wouldn't my true loyalties lie with the previous regime, when access was open to pretty much anyone who could be vouched for? Holy hell, I sat in on a meeting with the commissioner of the NHL because I was around and invited. Wouldn't that regime be more of a draw than one with smokescreens and contradictory information being fed to differing groups?

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
The logic used by Palinka is that of deflection and to make the unreasonable sounds reasonable. Don't fall for it. Management has been trying to use it on me for 20+ years now, of which only the company I am in now is still in business. The signs are easy for me to see.

The org is being run into the ground. The excuses should be insulting to you at this point. We can regurgitate the same debate over and over again, but you either are open to it (listening to both sides) or you aren't. I have given Palinka many oppurtunities to see the reverse side. He may or many not see the other side, but it isn't reflected in any of his postings. I "saw" the logic in not making many moves the off season after the playoff run. That off season, I said repeatedly we needed help. Sounded reasonble, after all we made the playoffs with that group. That didn't happen and we got messages from Howson that he was happy with the group. The off season after Hitch was terminated, we wanted to see what they would do with a new coach. Once again, sounds reasonable. However, once again it didn't play out. It should have been obvious we weren't going to get the results we wanted. This year, better... Maybe. The reality is whatever gains we may get in production may be offset by goals allowed.

It's fascinating to me... It's only "logical" when it fits in with your line of thinking. At least I've started many rebuttals with "I see the logic". There are some that are just logic-less around here but, even if you don't agree, most of my posts are well thought out. There are many that, unlike me, would get offended by the suggestion (intentional or otherwise) that our side of the debate isn't logical or (well) reasoned.

I know you were probably just trying to be funny. The reality is, it's really not funny or cute anymore. It never is when your franchise is on life support. I hope the doctors really know what they are doing, otherwise this will be a long, painful, drawn out death (of the GM and coach).
I'll speak only for myself here, since I wasn't the primary target of this. I'm perfectly capable of seeing both sides of an issue, or sometimes several sides of a more complex issue. What I don't do is pile on, and what I do is present the opposing side if it's actually either reasonable or reflects the actual pattern of thought that explains the course of action.

Speaking of which, where's my occasional sidekick Viqsi been?

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10-19-2011, 02:50 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
It may shock the living hell out of you, but the GM can only crap on his fanbase so long with a mediocre product before, whether he is "just following orders" or not, he'll be finding himself a new job because only 8,000 people are showing up to see the mess he's created. Free enterprises can do what they wish. But eventually when you are tone deaf to the market you learn a lesson as people vote with their wallets. Just ask "Quikster", I mean, Netflix.
That's the difference between Columbus and Philadelphia or Toronto.

Quote:
I love how you focus on Howson's alleged late round draft successes. Which amounts to what? Some more bottom pairing d-men and bottom six forwards? We certainly couldn't focus on Howson's successes in rounds 1 and 2--Voracek (gone), Filatov (gone for next to nothing), John Moore (wasn't he -infinity last year?), and, of course, Stefan "Pizza Delivery Guy" Legein. To find anyone approximating a blue chip talent you have to rely entirely on perceived "potential" as we haven't had a single player that has developed into a bona fide star to date during the Howson era.

Ultimately this team has got to develop top 6 forwards not named "Nash" and top pairing defenseman on its own or it will continue to have to overpay via free agency to get them. This GM hasn't done any better than the last GM at that.
Who exactly was available in these particular drafts? 2007 was weak overall, 2008 and 2009 were top-heavy, and 2010 featured a clear top two and several projects.

Now, that's just the first round, but we're not exactly talking about a gold rush in the second round or later either. If you want to start with where Columbus would pick in the second round in 2009, the highest-producing player from there until the end of the draft has 2 goals and 3 points. Do the same thing in 2008, and it's Derek Stepan and then Matt Calvert. 2007 has Jamie Benn, PK Subban, and a lot of role players.

Scouting isn't the crapshoot that it once was. A lot of the future stars are clustering heavily into the top 40 picks, but more notable is the fact that there seems to be a reduction in the number of late-round stars compared to the pre-lockout days. Role players are still coming from there for sure, but guys with any sort of staying power are becoming increasingly rare after the second round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm5 View Post
Really that's your argument for keeping Howson, that he has to find these people who are available and get them. THAT IS HIS JOB. My god how devoted you are to a man who has won nothing in his tenure here. Yeah they made the playoffs once, and were swept, but after that it has been an incredible amount of suck here.

Now to your other point about the draft, who has he drafted that has turned into a star or for that matter anything above the 3rd line or the 3rd paring. Nobody. I don't care about potential or what the prospects do in junior or college. It still isn't happening here which is ultimately all that matters.
See my notes above.

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10-19-2011, 05:55 AM
  #731
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Palinka wouldnt trade Howson for Holland!

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10-19-2011, 06:11 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
Well, let's think about this. A GM takes over an expansion team that has minimally more talent than it had after its expansion draft and first entry draft. There are gaping holes all over the place that need to be fixed, and there's very little coming up in the farm system that projects to be higher than a fourth-line forward, a third-pairing defenseman, or a backup goalie.
And the excuses continue. It's cool you have drank the kool aid, but I don't appreciate you trying to Jim Jones me. Those excuses were fine the first couple of years.

Not sure if this is going to continue, but which team has played much better in the last 30 games? Toronto or Columbus? Which GM has been in place longer?

Actually what you kind of do is worse, you give zero credence to the other side. I have yet to hear one bad word (that I can remember) about Howson from you. However, I have given him props when I think he's due. What you do it just gloss over it, give the opposing side no consideration as a bunch of loons (most likely). Probably because you are supposedly in the industry, and move on. It just feels like a PR stunt most days. On some you give some interesting analysis, it's better when your bias doesn't come through.


Last edited by blahblah: 10-19-2011 at 06:17 AM.
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Old
10-19-2011, 07:12 AM
  #733
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I don't agree, at all, bb. Whether you like what he says or not, Palinka doesn't spout PR crap, he provides well-considered analysis. Doesn't mean he's right, just that he always gives us something to chew on. It's clear that he has knowledge of the game and how the NHL works. Agree or disagree, at least give his opinions the reflection due. Calling him "Jim Jones" is totally ludicrous - an attempt to provide reasons, rather than excuses or mindless attacks, is not brainwashing. You can be fair, blahblah, but I don't think you are, in this instance.

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10-19-2011, 07:14 AM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
That's the difference between Columbus and Philadelphia or Toronto.



Who exactly was available in these particular drafts? 2007 was weak overall, 2008 and 2009 were top-heavy, and 2010 featured a clear top two and several projects.

Now, that's just the first round, but we're not exactly talking about a gold rush in the second round or later either. If you want to start with where Columbus would pick in the second round in 2009, the highest-producing player from there until the end of the draft has 2 goals and 3 points. Do the same thing in 2008, and it's Derek Stepan and then Matt Calvert. 2007 has Jamie Benn, PK Subban, and a lot of role players.

Scouting isn't the crapshoot that it once was. A lot of the future stars are clustering heavily into the top 40 picks, but more notable is the fact that there seems to be a reduction in the number of late-round stars compared to the pre-lockout days. Role players are still coming from there for sure, but guys with any sort of staying power are becoming increasingly rare after the second round.



See my notes above.


More empty excuses.

Apparently Howson needs a minimum of 10 years to turn this team around. Never mind that other GM's (i.e. the competent ones) have turned around teams just since Howson's been in charge. For example, Buffalo, Tampa, and it appears that the latest may be Howson's former team, Edmonton.

Spare us a response filled with more excuses. This ain't Toronto as you point out and this market can't survive another 5 years with no results. If Howson had more consistently worked to build this team during his tenure instead of taking entire off-seasons off we wouldn't be in this spot. Why he did nothing prior to the '10-'11 season will go down in history as one of the great mysteries of his time here.

As far as I'm concerned, Howson's time is done. We're now just waiting for the formal acknowledgement of it. If this ownership group has any brains, the entire braintrust--Priest, Howson and Arniel--won't be here much longer so that the next GM can get to the hard work of fixing this mess sooner than later. We do not have another off-season for analysis. That's what the rest of his season is now for.

The only thing that could delay the inevitable at this point is the vote of the County Commissioners.

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10-19-2011, 07:20 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
I don't agree, at all, bb. Whether you like what he says or not, Palinka doesn't spout PR crap, he provides well-considered analysis. Doesn't mean he's right, just that he always gives us something to chew on. It's clear that he has knowledge of the game and how the NHL works. Agree or disagree, at least give his opinions the reflection due. Calling him "Jim Jones" is totally ludicrous - an attempt to provide reasons, rather than excuses or mindless attacks, is not brainwashing. You can be fair, blahblah, but I don't think you are, in this instance.
With Palinka's "knowledge" comes the transparent bias of someone who has had either a personal or professional relationship with the people in question. There is nothing approaching objectivity.

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10-19-2011, 07:25 AM
  #736
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
With Palinka's "knowledge" comes the transparent bias of someone who has had either a personal or professional relationship with the people in question. There is nothing approaching objectivity.
I don't agree. And "knowledge" in quotes? You read his posts and minimize his knowledge of the game? As usual, you cause me to struggle for mature response.

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10-19-2011, 07:31 AM
  #737
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Firing Howson should be the start of the firings.

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10-19-2011, 07:38 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
I don't agree, at all, bb. Whether you like what he says or not, Palinka doesn't spout PR crap, he provides well-considered analysis. Doesn't mean he's right, just that he always gives us something to chew on. It's clear that he has knowledge of the game and how the NHL works. Agree or disagree, at least give his opinions the reflection due. Calling him "Jim Jones" is totally ludicrous - an attempt to provide reasons, rather than excuses or mindless attacks, is not brainwashing. You can be fair, blahblah, but I don't think you are, in this instance.
Pete we aren't going to find common ground if you can look at what I quoted from Palinka and not think that is nothing more than a PR spin attempting to make the unreasonable sound reasonable. I have been spoon fed excuses like this my entire adult life from those far more skilled at it than Palinka. I can easily see the signs now.

I'm sorry if you don't agree Pete, but I think I'm being more than fair.

Palinka leads the spin crusade, deflects criticism, and promotes failures as understandable (or worse yet, successes). These same tactics you see in Washington on a daily basis.

Palinka seems to have a lot invested in Howson. His fair analysis mostly comes when he leaves the realm of items directly related to Howson's performance.

It's understandable and to be expected. I'm just letting him know I see it.

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10-19-2011, 07:51 AM
  #739
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Pete we aren't going to find common ground if you can look at what I quoted from Palinka and not think that is nothing more than a PR spin attempting to make the unreasonable sound reasonable. I have been spoon fed excuses like this my entire adult life from those far more skilled at it than Palinka. I can easily see the signs now.

I'm sorry if you don't agree Pete, but I think I'm being more than fair.

Palinka leads the spin crusade, deflects criticism, and promotes failures as understandable (or worse yet, successes). These same tactics you see in Washington on a daily basis.

Palinka seems to have a lot invested in Howson. His fair analysis mostly comes when he leaves the realm of items directly related to Howson's performance.

It's understandable and to be expected. I'm just letting him know I see it.
You're right, bb, we're just not going to agee on this one. Isn't the first, won't be the last. I shouldn't have called your fairness into question, though, that's perception and not really open for arguement.

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10-19-2011, 07:56 AM
  #740
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I've thought about this and as disappointed as I am with this team, the holes in its makeup and of course the results, I believe the best thing to do right now is retain Howson and Arniel. If I was Mac McConnell, I would let them know in no uncertain terms my expectations both short and long term. I don't have confidence they can turn it around, but its counter-productive to fire them now. If the season plays out as I now expect, a 60-70 point team, I would fire them both after the final game.

In the meanwhile, I would scour North America for a hockey guy who can advise me on team building and management, sort of akin to the job Scotty Bowman has with the Blackhawks. I would also look for someone who is a wunderkind in sports marketing and promotion who can recapture the amazing promotion success of the Chill in the 90s.

Firing Howson or Arniel just sets the franchise back even further. If Howson is fired, then they repeat the mistake made when he was hired, a coach the GM didn't select and who may not coach the vision of the new GM. If Arniel is fired, then Howson is picking the next coach when he is likely a lame duck. Naming Todd Richards interim coach does absolutely nothing. His teams underperformed in Minnesota and I'm not confident he has learned enough since then to correct his coaching deficiencies.

I also think the great franchises have a vision of their brand of hockey (or any other sport) and the GM is hired to fit that image. I look at Detroit and Philly as really good examples of this. The owners own the vision of Red Wings hockey- highly skilled teams that play a cerebral game or Flyers hockey- in your face aggressive hockey and everyone is selected based on their fit with the system.


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10-19-2011, 08:05 AM
  #741
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In the meanwhile, I would scour North America for a hockey guy who can advise me on team building and management, sort of akin to the job Scotty Bowman has with the Blackhawks.
You mean one of the things it sounded like they were going to try and do this off season but didn't execute on?

The walls are crumbling around Howson and Priest is going to be left answering to ownership on why Howson over Hitch. Loyalty starts to dissolve when you are a cap team and the team is no better, especially when you see some teams retreating to the cap floor and putting together a fairly good team while you are the worst team in the league losing 25+ million and have the second worst home attendance in the league.

Now they have Wiz coming back and Carter on IR. They have some wiggle room to figure this out in the room. But if we're looking at a couple of wins at the end of October what other choice(s) do you have?

As I said I'm not going to call for terminations of anyone, but Arniel's streak is already beyond Hitch's. Ownership will have to decide how much longer they can be patient, if that can even be used to describe the attitudes around Nationwide.

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10-19-2011, 08:21 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
I've thought about this and as disappointed as I am with this team, the holes in its makeup and of course the results, I believe the best thing to do right now is retain Howson and Arniel. If I was Mac McConnell, I would let them know in no uncertain terms my expectations both short and long term. I don't have confidence they can turn it around, but its counter-productive to fire them now. If the season plays out as I now expect, a 60-70 point team, I would fire them both after the final game.

In the meanwhile, I would scour North America for a hockey guy who can advise me on team building and management, sort of akin to the job Scotty Bowman has with the Blackhawks. I would also look for someone who is a wunderkind in sports marketing and promotion who can recapture the amazing promotion success of the Chill in the 90s.

Firing Howson or Arniel just sets the franchise back even further. If Howson is fired, then they repeat the mistake made when he was hired, a coach the GM didn't select and who may not coach the vision of the new GM. If Arniel is fired, then Howson is picking the next coach when he is likely a lame duck. Naming Todd Richards interim coach does absolutely nothing. His teams underperformed in Minnesota and I'm not confident he has learned enough since then to correct his coaching deficiencies.

I also think the great franchises have a vision of their brand of hockey (or any other sport) and the GM is hired to fit that image. I look at Detroit and Philly as really good examples of this. The owners own the vision of Red Wings hockey- highly skilled teams that play a cerebral game or Flyers hockey- in your face aggressive hockey and everyone is selected based on their fit with the system.
I think this is spot on, Leek.

Firing Arniel or Howson at this point is counterproductive, no one in this organization fills me with confidence if they were to name "interims" and have them play out the season, we can lose just the same with Arniel and Howson then with (Insert names here).

This "Senior Advisor" type has been bandied about since MacLean's firing and we've seen no inkling beyond talk about it...

Its time to bring in someone from the outside that demands accountability and excellence. The fact that both our GM and coach were "second choices" is becoming troubling to think about again. Its time to bring in someone who has a winning pedigree in this league, someone that isn't afraid to rock the boat and someone who can get the job done.

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10-19-2011, 08:34 AM
  #743
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So we're hemorrhaging and it isn't a good time to put on a tourniquet so just keep bleeding?

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10-19-2011, 08:37 AM
  #744
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Fire Howson, Replace with Hitch?

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10-19-2011, 08:45 AM
  #745
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So we're hemorrhaging and it isn't a good time to put on a tourniquet so just keep bleeding?
Firing a coach or GM at this point would tip the balance into complete chaos in the lockerroom, its only 6 games in the season. What could we honestly expect an interim GM to do at this point?

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10-19-2011, 08:48 AM
  #746
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Firing Arniel or Howson at this point is counterproductive, no one in this organization fills me with confidence if they were to name "interims" and have them play out the season, we can lose just the same with Arniel and Howson then with (Insert names here).
We have had some examples in the recent past of mid season coaching changes making an impact. NJ the most recent.

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10-19-2011, 08:50 AM
  #747
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Firing a coach or GM at this point would tip the balance into complete chaos in the lockerroom, its only 6 games in the season. What could we honestly expect an interim GM to do at this point?
Hopefully analyze the team and get an idea of what's wrong and the direction they want to take this upcoming off season, including the process of finding a new head coach.

Honestly one of the last things you want is a lame duck GM coming up on the trade deadline making decisions that will impact the next GM.

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10-19-2011, 08:52 AM
  #748
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Stand course, and this team will lose more season ticket holders. If they dont right this thing ASAP, I wouldnt be surprised to see some change of opinions on transferring ownership of the arena for this team. And considering the thread title, Howson is who goes in my opinion.....coach is sensible to be next as the GM should get to decide who coaches. But in the end it doesnt really matter if Priest is still on board......I have zero confidence that he can hire the right person anyway

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10-19-2011, 08:53 AM
  #749
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You mean one of the things it sounded like they were going to try and do this off season but didn't execute on?
yes, should have been done, yet ownership apparently didn't force the issue. Finding and hiring this person should be priority #1 right now.

Quote:
The walls are crumbling around Howson and Priest is going to be left answering to ownership on why Howson over Hitch. Loyalty starts to dissolve when you are a cap team and the team is no better, especially when you see some teams retreating to the cap floor and putting together a fairly good team while you are the worst team in the league losing 25+ million and have the second worst home attendance in the league.
I totally agree. I felt Howson undermined Hitch. I don't know if it was by design, but he put in place a roster that couldn't play the style Hitchcock coaches. That's what happens when the GM doesn't hire the coach AND the team doesn't have an identity that goes beyond the GM.

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Now they have Wiz coming back and Carter on IR. They have some wiggle room to figure this out in the room. But if we're looking at a couple of wins at the end of October what other choice(s) do you have?
Live with it until they can take a cohesive approach to the entire operation. Firing them now doesn't help anything.

Quote:
As I said I'm not going to call for terminations of anyone, but Arniel's streak is already beyond Hitch's. Ownership will have to decide how much longer they can be patient, if that can even be used to describe the attitudes around Nationwide.
Yes- but there has to be a plan, not a knee jerk reaction.

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10-19-2011, 09:17 AM
  #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Firing a coach or GM at this point would tip the balance into complete chaos in the lockerroom, its only 6 games in the season. What could we honestly expect an interim GM to do at this point?
This is a bad reason not to fire whomever (at this time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
Stand course, and this team will lose more season ticket holders.
This is a bad reason to fire whomever.

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