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Fire Howson Thread

View Poll Results: Should Scott Howson be fired?
Yes 85 59.03%
No 59 40.97%
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Old
10-23-2011, 09:18 PM
  #876
leesmith
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And you'll get 7 or 8 different answers because there are at least that many problems.
Stop looking for "the problem." There's more than one.
Stop hoping to find "the saviour." There's going to have to be more than one.

What we need here is some clarity of vision. This is who we are. This is what we do. This is ALL that we do. This is how were going to do it. **** everything else.

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10-23-2011, 10:25 PM
  #877
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I just watched NHL on the Fly. I am now completely broken hearted. Listening as outsiders pick apart all our troubles....

Howson has to go.

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10-24-2011, 12:26 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by wooten View Post
and nonsensical trades of what few effective pieces we have.
I'm highlighting this again because it is a recurring theme. Every attempted defense for the current coach/GM starts for some reason with the admission that we have few effective players.

And, who put together this group of players exactly?

You've pinpointed the problem alright, but it is you who are afraid to admit it.

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10-24-2011, 12:37 AM
  #879
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wow, and that's just the kind of blockbuster we need.
It wasn't the players I wanted to point out. It was the attitude that some recognize that this is a performance based sport and are not willing to use patience as an excuse. They had a problem, recognize it and made a move. There was at least some effort made.

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10-24-2011, 01:11 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
I'm highlighting this again because it is a recurring theme. Every attempted defense for the current coach/GM starts for some reason with the admission that we have few effective players.

And, who put together this group of players exactly?

You've pinpointed the problem alright, but it is you who are afraid to admit it.
You misunderstand. I'm not defending Howson (nor Arniel) in the least. I was explaining my thoughts on why you would get 8 different opinions from 10 people on how to fix the current issues. It's a complex issue, obviously, and far more useful things can be done than trading away the parts that are effective in an effort to 'fix' what's currently wrong. We have a multi-systemic failure here, Capn. No one action is going to fix it.

I should also explain that I mean "currently effective". I do not believe the roster is as bad as they've shown, nor are there 'few' effective players overall. I see injuries as a key issue and a general lack of belief and confidence in what they're doing shift in and shift out. Before you sharpen your wit to go after this as a defense of Howson, let me add that Howson is responsible for the gambles in net and on the blueline that have largely contributed in this horrible start. Even with Wiz and Dex out, there's no excuse for the utter collapse in three areas: Goaltending, defense and Arniel. So, though I believe in this roster, I do see huge gaping holes that are a direct result of inaction or wrong action by the GM. If I were making a list of pros and cons, there are probably more pros than cons in terms of Howson's time here, but the importance of the cons, and 0-7-1 outweigh whatever the positives might be.

I would start with Arniel and finish with a front office house cleaning shortly thereafter, or do it all at once, I don't care. although I like the offseason moves, I wish it were as simple as saying Howson gave Arniel the tools and Arniel didn't deliver. Yet, I know Howson still wanted to stick it out another year with last year's guys, but was compelled to act by ownership (via Priest). this further illustrates to me he's not the GM we need. This tells me as much as anything that he should not survive the firing of the coach he hired, and if one day this roster is successful we can thank him for getting us to the doorstep a la Chicago and Talon.

What I would not do, is have the current front office trade the franchise player, the guy who *wants* to be here, away at any cost.

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10-24-2011, 02:03 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
No way Arniel should be the only fall guy for this. The moron that hired him deserves to go with him.
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Originally Posted by IBleedUnionBlue View Post
Howson must be terminated. Do it before the Wings game Tuesday.
If your heart is truly set on it, don't expect anything before Thanksgiving short of an astronomical collapse between now and then.

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Originally Posted by Fred Glover View Post
Really, this should be a fire Mike Priest thread. There is no hockey guy above Howson. If Howson is fired, do we really trust Priest to make the call on a new GM? Many other organEYEzations have more than one hockey guy on board. Just look at St. Louis with Davidson, Pleau, etc. We need hockey guys running the hockey organEYEzation, not someone from the steel industry.
The rumor's been floating around that there's someone of similar stature and of similar position who's agreed to move on from his current team once their ownership transition is settled. I can't substantiate it because that's a little bit outside of my area, but it's from a couple of fairly reliable folks.

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Originally Posted by RBarRegular View Post
I agree. And, to me, the Tyutin contract is the most egregious of them all. We grossly overpaid in both dollar AND term. No way he gets anywhere near that on the open market. Now we're married to him for the next 6 plus years.
I'm not so sure, to be honest. Everyone gasped when Ron Hainsey got what he did (three years ago), and now he's probably below the going market for defensemen. In the post-lockout era, no one has benefited more in free agency than defensemen, and no one has taken a bigger hit than goalies.

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10-24-2011, 02:22 AM
  #882
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I'm tired of the excuses. Even when healthy this defense is sub-par. Even with Wisniewski we are without a true #1 defenseman notwithstanding the hype that Howson gave to a guy like Moore...the sole reason we didn't pick Cam Fowler over Johansen. This GM is a horrible judge of talent.
The last part is absurd on every level. For one thing, there were serious questions about several components of Fowler's game. His skating and passing are exceptional, his offensive instincts are pretty good, and that's where it starts to break down. His shooting is average, his defensive instincts are average at best, and he's not exactly the most physical guy out there. And unless he develops some of that awfully quickly, he's going to stagnate once more opponents figure him out. I didn't have him as high as Ryan Murphy this year, which of course is no shock considering most of my posts between April and June of 2011.

For another thing, several teams weren't sold on Fowler for those reasons. At least three teams wanted to move up into the top-five of the 2010 draft, none of them to take Fowler. A guy with an arthritic hip who played very little in his draft year (Brett Connolly) was taken ahead of Fowler, as was a stockier version of Brad Ference (Dylan McIlrath). Edmonton wanted to move back into the top-five specifically to get Johansen, and that was after drafting a center and being pretty thin on the blueline...why didn't they want Fowler?

And for another thing, Scott Howson's specialty is amateur scouting, which has been remarkably better than it was previously. That's without the benefit of having a first-rounder high enough to get the franchise-type players. I'd venture to say that across the last five drafts, Columbus has been in the upper third and possibly upper quarter of all teams' drafting despite not being in an advantageous position.

Now, if you want to start getting into pro scouting, there's a reason why some of those guys were shown the door, and that's all I'm saying about that.

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10-24-2011, 08:05 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
The last part is absurd on every level. For one thing, there were serious questions about several components of Fowler's game. His skating and passing are exceptional, his offensive instincts are pretty good, and that's where it starts to break down. His shooting is average, his defensive instincts are average at best, and he's not exactly the most physical guy out there. And unless he develops some of that awfully quickly, he's going to stagnate once more opponents figure him out. I didn't have him as high as Ryan Murphy this year, which of course is no shock considering most of my posts between April and June of 2011.

For another thing, several teams weren't sold on Fowler for those reasons. At least three teams wanted to move up into the top-five of the 2010 draft, none of them to take Fowler. A guy with an arthritic hip who played very little in his draft year (Brett Connolly) was taken ahead of Fowler, as was a stockier version of Brad Ference (Dylan McIlrath). Edmonton wanted to move back into the top-five specifically to get Johansen, and that was after drafting a center and being pretty thin on the blueline...why didn't they want Fowler?

And for another thing, Scott Howson's specialty is amateur scouting, which has been remarkably better than it was previously. That's without the benefit of having a first-rounder high enough to get the franchise-type players. I'd venture to say that across the last five drafts, Columbus has been in the upper third and possibly upper quarter of all teams' drafting despite not being in an advantageous position.

Now, if you want to start getting into pro scouting, there's a reason why some of those guys were shown the door, and that's all I'm saying about that.
I will say that, on the whole, the cupboard appears in better shape than it had been at any point under MacLean.

That said, our GM may be a fair talent evaluator at the amateur level, but he's been shockingly pedestrian or worse in many others....

The risks one takes when hiring a relative unknown to the position, if Howson is let go at some point, either this season or after the season, nothing must impede or stand in the way of getting the best candidate possible, someone who has been there, done that and has the scars, battle trophies, experience, relevance and respectability to prove it

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Old
10-24-2011, 09:42 AM
  #884
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Re: The High Priest

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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
The rumor's been floating around that there's someone of similar stature and of similar position who's agreed to move on from his current team once their ownership transition is settled. I can't substantiate it because that's a little bit outside of my area, but it's from a couple of fairly reliable folks.
This is the most interesting comment I've read in several days and it seems to have been overlooked. Any other hints, Palinka?

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10-24-2011, 10:23 AM
  #885
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This is the most interesting comment I've read in several days and it seems to have been overlooked. Any other hints, Palinka?
The group of possible teams fitting this description is pretty small--Dallas, St. Louis and Phoenix are, to my knowledge, the only teams in the midst of an ownership transition.

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10-24-2011, 10:29 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
This is the most interesting comment I've read in several days and it seems to have been overlooked. Any other hints, Palinka?
I'm forgetting which teams are undergoing ownership transitions, other than Phoenix, which could take a long time to resolve. Just trying to think who the candidates would be.

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Old
10-24-2011, 10:33 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
The group of possible teams fitting this description is pretty small--Dallas, St. Louis and Phoenix are, to my knowledge, the only teams in the midst of an ownership transition.
and perhaps Atl/Winn in there too...since its still in the first year, perhaps still considered a transition period...

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10-24-2011, 10:46 AM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
If your heart is truly set on it, don't expect anything before Thanksgiving short of an astronomical collapse between now and then.
I've heard possibly sooner than that.



Quote:
The rumor's been floating around that there's someone of similar stature and of similar position who's agreed to move on from his current team once their ownership transition is settled. I can't substantiate it because that's a little bit outside of my area, but it's from a couple of fairly reliable folks.
Boy that's a juicy one. Off the top of my head:

Phoenix, but when will that be settled??

Dallas, settling soon. Joe Nieuwendyk available? He must be unhappy after last season.

St. Louis, lots of hockey knowledge there but no deal in sight.

Toronto, for sale sign is out, but who is going to buy them for that kind of money. Lots of hockey experience there: Nonis, Poulin, Loiselle and Dudley.

Out of all those possibilities, I'd like Maloney or Loiselle.


Quote:
I'm not so sure, to be honest. Everyone gasped when Ron Hainsey got what he did (three years ago), and now he's probably below the going market for defensemen. In the post-lockout era, no one has benefited more in free agency than defensemen, and no one has taken a bigger hit than goalies.
He's still an overpaid 5-6 guy.

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10-25-2011, 10:55 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
This is the most interesting comment I've read in several days and it seems to have been overlooked. Any other hints, Palinka?
No, but thanks for asking.

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He's still an overpaid 5-6 guy.
That's not really the point though. The market for defensemen has gone completely out of skew over the last four years to the point where acquiring even a third-pairing guy has proven to be prohibitive. It's easy to criticize the Tyutin deal for a couple of reasons, but that's what the marketplace has established as the going rate...and it'll probably continue to get worse in the coming years.

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10-29-2011, 11:40 PM
  #890
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The architect of this disaster must go. Howson has been too reactive in how he built this team and now time has run out. A true clean sweep is needed, as should have been done when GG was fired when Doug was the bigger problem.

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10-30-2011, 12:08 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
The architect of this disaster must go. Howson has been too reactive in how he built this team and now time has run out. A true clean sweep is needed, as should have been done when GG was fired when Doug was the bigger problem.
This is about a roster that was poorly built. IIRC, when Howson was hired he claimed he would build the team "from the net out." That doesn't seem to be his actual strategy.

Arniel is saddled with a team with no defense, and average goaltending at best.

As much as I like Jeff Carter and have always liked his play, those assets should have been used for a #1 defenseman like a Burns. Then add a solid PPQB in Wisniewski, and add some solid NHL defenders, and allow the prospects to develop in Springfield.

This is all on Howson. I have no clue if Arniel is a good coach. I'm sure he has a roster that was poorly built.

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10-30-2011, 11:22 AM
  #892
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Howson needs to go for sure. I think there are some pieces here that will be here when we are a competitive team. I will be interested to see whom the new GM thinks those players are.

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10-30-2011, 11:55 AM
  #893
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I've finally cast a vote...

Howson must go.

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11-04-2011, 12:58 PM
  #894
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It's pretty unfair to do to York, at this point. As I said a while ago, trade away 3+ million in salary, put Mason on waivers, and bring in a backup for Dex. Hell at this point I don't even care if it's Tuco, even though it's not an improvement. Might even be preferable as you know he's shelf life is over.
That's what Sanford is there for. With Legace signed in the AHL, a theoretical roster would have Dekanich and Sanford in the NHL, plus York and Legace in Springfield. If Mason actually clears waivers and goes down, that's another minor issue to contend with.

Quote:
The reality is if Mason gets it together in the AHL you might lose him on re-entry waivers.
That's only if he's called back up during the season. Once the season ends, he's classified as back on the NHL roster and can't be claimed by another team unless he's sent down after the new season starts.

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The reality is that you probably move Brass and demote Mason. That's a message to the locker room.
Plenty of messages have been sent. Players who have enjoyed the nightlife a little too much have been moved, players who have relapsed into prior (off-ice) problems have been moved....either there's a lot of guys who don't get it, or it's simply a matter of who's on the ice and doing what.

The biggest issue has been between the pipes, or more specifically, between Mason's ears. Take care of that one way or another, and a lot of the other on-ice issues take care of themselves.

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11-04-2011, 01:12 PM
  #895
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Define "a LOT worse." We're dead last in the league. And for all of your "Howson made the playoffs mantra" (this is kind of like the picture of Hitch with the Cup, but with the overlying theme of mediocrity), the fact is that he's made the draft lottery FAR more often.
"A lot worse". English origin. Defined as "a situation substantially worse than the current one". See also: John Ferguson, Jr.

(And guess who was in the building last night?)

It's also nothing at all like Hitchcock with the Stanley Cup, mostly because there wasn't a single player from that team on the one that he had here. Now take a look at that Columbus playoff roster compared to the current one. Huselius, Nash, Brassard, Umberger, Vermette, Boll, Dorsett, Mayorov, Methot, Russell, Tyutin, Mason. The best of the remaining players from that team were Modin (past his prime at that point), Hejda (who plummeted quickly), Malhotra (replaced by Pahlsson), and Klesla (always injured, so it doesn't matter anyway). There have been upgrades galore.

So where, then, does the problem lie? If you take a young playoff team and improve it across the board and the on-ice product doesn't improve, where's the problem? Is it the coaching staff? Is it the GM? Or is it the goalie, who in Hitchcock's last two months had several brutal games that can't be pinned on the defense?

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The lack of logic in your argument is mind boggling. Future free agents would rather sign with a team with an incompetent GM, sitting dead last in the league than one that decides they are tired of the losing and are going to do what it takes to win going forward? Jeff Carter is going to demand a trade because the architect of the mess that he didn't want to be part of is fired? Vinny Prospal has any chance of actually re-signing here if we make no changes and continue down this path (and, for the record, I think the chances of him re-signing here are already at zero)?
A pretty emphatic message was sent by booting MacLean, and yet the first two years of the Howson regime featured no major free agent signings. And I'll tell you this. It sure as hell wasn't for lack of trying.

Let's think here. I think we can agree that Doug MacLean was legitimately an incompetent GM. I think we can all agree that the teams he put together were mediocre. I think we can all agree that firing him outright sent a message, as well as the declaration of "win now". And yet....and yet....so many premier players had zero interest in coming to Columbus or even considering a contract offer. Howson was told point-blank by Wade Redden's agent that if he were offered a maximum contract for 10 years, he wouldn't sign it (dodged a bullet there). That was after one year on the job and damn near making the playoffs.

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11-04-2011, 01:19 PM
  #896
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"A lot worse". English origin. Defined as "a situation substantially worse than the current one". See also: John Ferguson, Jr.

(And guess who was in the building last night?)

It's also nothing at all like Hitchcock with the Stanley Cup, mostly because there wasn't a single player from that team on the one that he had here. Now take a look at that Columbus playoff roster compared to the current one. Huselius, Nash, Brassard, Umberger, Vermette, Boll, Dorsett, Mayorov, Methot, Russell, Tyutin, Mason. The best of the remaining players from that team were Modin (past his prime at that point), Hejda (who plummeted quickly), Malhotra (replaced by Pahlsson), and Klesla (always injured, so it doesn't matter anyway). There have been upgrades galore.

So where, then, does the problem lie? If you take a young playoff team and improve it across the board and the on-ice product doesn't improve, where's the problem? Is it the coaching staff? Is it the GM? Or is it the goalie, who in Hitchcock's last two months had several brutal games that can't be pinned on the defense?



A pretty emphatic message was sent by booting MacLean, and yet the first two years of the Howson regime featured no major free agent signings. And I'll tell you this. It sure as hell wasn't for lack of trying.

Let's think here. I think we can agree that Doug MacLean was legitimately an incompetent GM. I think we can all agree that the teams he put together were mediocre. I think we can all agree that firing him outright sent a message, as well as the declaration of "win now". And yet....and yet....so many premier players had zero interest in coming to Columbus or even considering a contract offer. Howson was told point-blank by Wade Redden's agent that if he were offered a maximum contract for 10 years, he wouldn't sign it (dodged a bullet there). That was after one year on the job and damn near making the playoffs.
Palinka they imgagine it like a computer game... but we do not have players for trade a times ago and we wanted to develop our players. Plus Howson drafted not often yet. The next. If Howson would trade our players you would never get anything good you had to wait for getting young players and fill the roster another way. Now we have more players but too little always. We would need rebuilding but owner or president and especially fans do not want to hear about it.... only Po, like mantra.

They do not understand that if Howson would get a g-man we could not get a defensman because we got Carter. And when we would get defensman and g-man we should not a player to offense. And we do not have players as Preds. Preds builded their team some years from beginnign and good scouting.. but Howsons the older draft is 22 years. We must wait... .

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11-04-2011, 01:23 PM
  #897
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That's what Sanford is there for.
No kidding.

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That's only if he's called back up during the season. Once the season ends, he's classified as back on the NHL roster and can't be claimed by another team unless he's sent down after the new season starts.
Good to know

Quote:
Plenty of messages have been sent. Players who have enjoyed the nightlife a little too much have been moved, players who have relapsed into prior (off-ice) problems have been moved....either there's a lot of guys who don't get it, or it's simply a matter of who's on the ice and doing what.

The biggest issue has been between the pipes, or more specifically, between Mason's ears. Take care of that one way or another, and a lot of the other on-ice issues take care of themselves.
Time to send another. Also it's time to send the biggest one by slitting the proverbial throats of the HC and the GM.

Brass is sucking hard. Really hard. He has a bit of the Mason syndrome. Living off his rookie year production. Otherwise he can't win faceoffs and is only decent in one zone thus he's only truly useful when he's producing. And honestly he hasn't produced enough to compensate for that less than stellar two way game.

Biggest issue? Sure. But there are plenty of other issues on this team. Right now Brass is one of them.

I'll be honest, Johansen has already made a couple of breakout passes that Brass can only dream of making. In some ways he's already becoming more of a two way player. Can't wait until he's ready for us to shift him back to center.

As I said before, ask your boy if Mason sucks so bad why did he get that contract and why is he still on the roster?

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11-04-2011, 01:27 PM
  #898
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No kidding.



Good to know



Time to send another. Also it's time to send the biggest one by slitting the proverbial throats of the HC and the GM.

Brass is sucking hard. Really hard. He has a bit of the Mason syndrome. Living off his rookie year production. Otherwise he can't win faceoffs and is only decent in one zone thus he's only truly useful when he's producing. And honestly he hasn't produced enough to compensate for that less than stellar two way game.

Biggest issue? Sure. But there are plenty of other issues on this team. Right now Brass is one of them.

I'll be honest, Johansen has already made a couple of breakout passes that Brass can only dream of making. In some ways he's already becoming more of a two way player. Can't wait until he's ready for us to shift him back to center.

As I said before, ask your boy if Mason sucks so bad why did he get that contract and why is he still on the roster?
Because nobody wants him and we cannot get a good g-man.

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11-04-2011, 01:28 PM
  #899
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So where, then, does the problem lie? If you take a young playoff team and improve it across the board and the on-ice product doesn't improve, where's the problem? Is it the coaching staff? Is it the GM? Or is it the goalie, who in Hitchcock's last two months had several brutal games that can't be pinned on the defense?
So I can assume here what you are saying is that Hitch was undeservedly terminated?

*sniff, *sniff....

Smells like desperation.

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11-04-2011, 01:37 PM
  #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Time to send another. Also it's time to send the biggest one by slitting the proverbial throats of the HC and the GM.
The biggest one would be sticking a starting goalie on waivers in order to go with two guys whose combined NHL experience is less than three full games.

Canning a GM mid-season wouldn't send any type of a message except for leading to players jockeying to be traded.

Quote:
Brass is sucking hard. Really hard. He has a bit of the Mason syndrome. Living off his rookie year production. Otherwise he can't win faceoffs and is only decent in one zone thus he's only truly useful when he's producing. And honestly he hasn't produced enough to compensate for that less than stellar two way game.

Biggest issue? Sure. But there are plenty of other issues on this team. Right now Brass is one of them.

I'll be honest, Johansen has already made a couple of breakout passes that Brass can only dream of making. In some ways he's already becoming more of a two way player. Can't wait until he's ready for us to shift him back to center.
Indeed he has, but for the time being it's been interesting to see Johansen on the wing. He didn't look particularly good earlier in the season on the center except for the sporadic glimpses of rare talent, but he's done an excellent job on the wing.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to move Brassard.

Quote:
As I said before, ask your boy if Mason sucks so bad why did he get that contract and why is he still on the roster?
When Mason re-signed, he had played two NHL seasons. One was a Calder season, the other was all over the place. He had the swoon that led to Hitchcock's booting, but he also played extremely well down the stretch when the team couldn't buy a goal. Hell, I think he had four or five losses where he only allowed one goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
So I can assume here what you are saying is that Hitch was undeservedly terminated?

*sniff, *sniff....

Smells like desperation.
The problems that directly resulted from Hitchcock being in the room were manifested on the ice, and a change was needed.

Hitchcock remains a brilliant hockey mind, but when things continuously don't go well, there are few people more unpleasant. He's a lot like Bill Parcells; if you take it professionally, you'll do fine, it you take it personally, you'll fall apart. He's not as arbitrary or bipolar as Mike Keenan, but that's another story.

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